Goblin Squad Member
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You drive 1,791,552 lbs of force behind the single spike of a morningstar, less than a square inch, as in the example above, and you'll have no trouble punching a whole through the armor of a modern tank, as well as right out the other side, nevermind a silly little knight.
You are exactly right here...thinking that giants would use metal chestplates that are as thick as human chestplates is a bit absurd. From the perspective of a Medium character, a Huge chestplate would be like tank armor. Returning to the point, a giant's picks is designed to puncture another giant's armor. So, once again I agree with you.
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Please, do not have a Giant towering over me with a sledge hammer with the business as big as I am and then let me parry it! If I get hit with something like that, I should go flying across the room.
See, I can immediately come up with three responses to this, and it all depends on what sort of game you are playing, or how you interpret other aspects of the mechanics.
The first thing I think of, is that massive creatures all ought to just get Awesome Blow as a matter of course. And in that sense, I agree with you. I mean, why should a huge creature bother blowing a feat on something that is just plain physics?
On the other hand, I have a player with a dwarf with 20 Strength, and in his mind, being able to stand up against such a blow is par for the course with being a fantastical creature with supernaturally high strength.
And then there are the times when one might find oneself in an Anime-themed game, or at the table with players whose idea of fantasy was informed by same. Now, those who are very familiar with Anime will know that oftentimes the theme revolves around the sheer testicle-fueled grandeur of the hero and the symbolically gigantic weapon in his hands, with which he commonly deflects the blows of brachiosaur-sized enemies holding swords as long as a city bus. It is totally granted when playing that meme, that your character (especially if he is a teenager who cannot get a date with the girl he loves while all the time her fifteen friends keep vying for his attention by catching him in compromising positions, and whose teachers all think he is a total loser, and whose friends all harbor secret powers inherited from their past lives) can stop the motion of planets with his breath. Then again, there's also going to be some bad guy out there who can shoot your character to the moon with a flick of his fingers, so I guess it all evens out.
Many players want ridiculous sizes. Looking at popular MMOs, most have "group enemies" many times the typical player size for very practical reasons: Players feel more important, while at the same time, the enemy is not completely hidden by PCs, so it can still be seen, targeted, ...
As long as it specifically is only creatures that are supposed to be large.
World of Warcraft's human bosses twice the height of normal men is one of my greatest hates.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for physics, two things to keep in mind: Plausible Deniability and Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
I know that there's no way giants could stand up, or dragons could fly, based entirely on real-world physics. It's called "escapist fantasy" for a reason: Part of its appeal lies in the fact that it's not entirely like our world, just somewhat similar.
The main question is, how similar should it be? You don't want to chuck the entire physics book out the window (and if you did, it would just fall up), but you do have to ask physics nicely to look the other way sometimes, especially where spellcasting is involved. (Seriously, why doesn't the wall of ice spell create a fire blast when it appears, what with pushing all that thermal energy out of such a big area so quickly?)
So yes, I know that if we implemented purely real-world physics, most of Pathfinder isn't possible. But just because you ignore parts of physics doesn't mean you ignore all of it.
I'll just wrap up with one of my favorite quotes from Vaarsuvius, the elf wizard in the Order of the Stick webcomic:
"I consider the First Law of Thermodynamics to be a loose guideline at best!"
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I hate bad guys that are superpowered compared to what I can get. Boss fights should be difficult because of a number of baddies that are "equal" or slightly stronger then you, making it difficult but not ridiculous. there are occasions for it like dragons but those should not be planet sized compared to me.
Also in the past the environment was different and thus allowed larger creatures however I do not beleive that oversized humans existed except as rare mutants. one, humans have been getting taller for the past few centuries and two the ratio between how much force your body can withstand goes down as you get larger, making it so the larger you are the less proportional force can be applied before your body breaks.
med can fall x feet before breakage
thrice med can fall only twice x feet before breakage
really big can fall only half x feet before breakage
etc until person cant fall without breakage
(amounts are to illustrate and are not accurate)
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@GM Elton are you suggesting these giants, which you are accepting as fact on nothing more than a single eyewitness, wielded a perfectly scaled weapon, nevermind the hugely exaggerated scaling being suggested here?
Actually, there are many more eyewitnesses.
- Admiral Richard E. Byrd
- Karl Unger
- Karl Waltz
Plus, Giants have been in just every cultural mythic tradition, and they have dug up bones to support these mythical traditions. A Legend or Myth can be based in truth.
Picture of a Giant Human Skeleton
A second Picture of fossilized giant human bones.
Oh, and be careful doing your own research. The giant human skeleton exhumed in Arabia is a confirmed hoax.
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Nah, it just turns that enchanted shield into a weapon. It will be driven, fully intact mind you, into the wearer's arm. Why do you need to harm the shield to do that? 2 million lbs of force, intact or not, that shield's gonna be attached to your arm 500 yards away up a tree.
Or, it simply bounces off the magic shield, since the magic shield won't conduct any of its force through itself. If it did that, it could be sundered.
And that's what a magic shield is supposed to do, act like a magic shield, not a reinforced peice of common steel.
==Aelryinth
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Nah, it just turns that enchanted shield into a weapon. It will be driven, fully intact mind you, into the wearer's arm. Why do you need to harm the shield to do that? 2 million lbs of force, intact or not, that shield's gonna be attached to your arm 500 yards away up a tree.Or, it simply bounces off the magic shield, since the magic shield won't conduct any of its force through itself. If it did that, it could be sundered.
And that's what a magic shield is supposed to do, act like a magic shield, not a reinforced peice of common steel.
==Aelryinth
Exactly. Physics does not apply strictly to magic. A freezing burst longsword breaks thermodynamics, so a shield should be allowed to break kinetics. By the same reasoning, a giant can stand without sinking into the ground, and economics doesn't prevent the inn from being able to make change for a GP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, there are many more eyewitnesses.
- Admiral Richard E. Byrd
- Karl Unger
- Karl Waltz
Plus, Giants have been in just every cultural mythic tradition, and they have dug up bones to support these mythical traditions. A Legend or Myth can be based in truth.
Picture of a Giant Human Skeleton
A second Picture of fossilized giant human bones.
Oh, and be careful doing your own research. The giant human skeleton exhumed in Arabia is a confirmed hoax.
Only the one in Arabia? You're sure? There have been MANY confirmed giant skeleton hoaxes. Popularity is no grounds for evidence. That would prove the existence of all kinds of fairy tale creatures.
And please provide links to more than just doctored photos if you want to discuss archeological evidence. So odd of you to leave out...just like you didn't bother to mention that the "Agartha" to which you referred is, according to norsemen, inside the Earth's core. I believe it was also a popular story told among nazis about how the giants of Ultima Thule had marvelously advanced technology in their underground city that was linked via "magic" to the cosmos, and how they were going to create a new breed of super Aryans together with the nazis.
There are some real credibility issues coming up with your "evidences". Not really surprising, as this is all coming from "Forbidden Archeology"...
And just to be clear, I'm not saying giganticism doesn't happen in humans, as it clearly does/has, only in the extremes portrayed in the larger fantasy giants. And with more emphasis, I was demonstrating the difficulties such would have swinging such over-proportionately scaled weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha
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magic should be a bending of laws of physics, since all matter is energy then if you control energy you control matter but you dont get to ignore the laws of physics without doing something to counteract them, such as a spell or enchantment.
so armor bonuses (as explained by a past dm of mine) makes armor better by spreading the force of blows across the armor and sometimes it will deflect them entirely depending on the angle of hit and how much force is applied.
In the case metioned earlier, the shield's magic would be trying to deflect the force,but the amount of force is probably too much to deflect completly, thus the shield (and it's wielder) would still feel most of the force which since its so much means splat, the shield /might/ still be usable afterwards but as for it's wielder....
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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magic should be a bending of laws of physics, since all matter is energy then if you control energy you control matter but you dont get to ignore the laws of physics without doing something to counteract them, such as a spell or enchantment.
so armor bonuses (as explained by a past dm of mine) makes armor better by spreading the force of blows across the armor and sometimes it will deflect them entirely depending on the angle of hit and how much force is applied.
In the case metioned earlier, the shield's magic would be trying to deflect the force,but the amount of force is probably too much to deflect completly, thus the shield (and it's wielder) would still feel most of the force which since its so much means splat, the shield /might/ still be usable afterwards but as for it's wielder....
That's one way to see it; but if force can be evenly distributed over the entire body (not just the skin) then the crushing downwards blow does nothing but drive the victim into the ground intact. The swipe could still send one flying, but hitting the ground (if that force were also distributed over ones entire body) wouldn't hurt.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Nope. The shield can only distribute that force 10% of the time, plus 5% per plus. The full plate can do it more, because it has a higher AC, and by the rules neither can block the ground. I just needed to point out that the maximum magnitude of blow wasn't limited by what the arm could handle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So basically, someone wearing any enchanted fullplate, by your house rules physics, cannot possibly be hurt? No point asking the player what his armor class his; he's untouchable? That's magic, right?
And there are always enchanted picks and other weapons designed to get through or around plate armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So basically, someone wearing any enchanted fullplate, by your house rules physics, cannot possibly be hurt? No point asking the player what his armor class his; he's untouchable? That's magic, right?And there are always enchanted picks and other weapons designed to get through or around plate armor.
But only 90% of the time, minus 5% per difference in pluses, and only if you're using a magic weapon. The secret is to wear 20 layers of enchanted head to toe silk armor: you'll be completely invincible...99.99% of the time!
And sweaty...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nope. The shield can only distribute that force 10% of the time, plus 5% per plus. The full plate can do it more, because it has a higher AC, and by the rules neither can block the ground. I just needed to point out that the maximum magnitude of blow wasn't limited by what the arm could handle.
As someone not an expert in Pathfinder rules, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're using house rules for this little point you're trying to make. Otherwise, that is way to full of easily exploitable loopholes.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So basically, someone wearing any enchanted fullplate, by your house rules physics, cannot possibly be hurt? No point asking the player what his armor class his; he's untouchable? That's magic, right?And there are always enchanted picks and other weapons designed to get through or around plate armor.
Guisarme-voulge versus AC type 5: +1
Done very well, it would be epic win. Done fairly well, epic fail. The fact that the players don't have to look up the values on the chart every time an attack is made removes the inherent problem with the idea, but there is still a lot of work to be done, both in theorycraft and verisimilitude.
The +1 Silk armor is flexible. You'd hack into it with a sword, it wouldn't cut it, but it's not stiff...it'll naturally deform, and whoever is behind it is going to get hurt.
Plus, it's AC1. C'mon, it's got no protective value! You'd just slide your sword in between the layers, if they think it makes them invulnerable.
Also note that silk is made up of fibers, and you can stick something between the fibers...
:)
Note that, by the rules, you can't cut +1 silk armor with a non-magical weapon. But also by the rules, it's just going to grant you +1 AC, not invulnerability.
Ditto any other magic armor.
But it also means that if a half-ton weapon comes smacking down on you, it WILL bounce if it doesn't beat your AC...and with NO ill-effects to armor or wearer.
===Aelryinth
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder SRD: link
Magic enchantment adds hardness to items and armor. Each +1 adds 2 to its hardness and 10 hp. Nothing whatsoever about making them invulnerable to damage from non magical items.
So, back to directing nearly 2 million lbs of force as your flimsy +1 shield. Goodbye shield, and goodbye fool trying to block.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not likely that 20 foot humanoids could exist on earth at this point in time. There is nothing fundamental to anatomy, biology, or physics that says that 20 food humanoids could not co-exist with 6 foot humanoids, just as there were vastly differing dinosaur sizes.
But, again, all I really want is some restraint on the part of the developers when developing content. If I'm supposed to fight a giant, I'd rather not be expected to Stand Tall the same way I would when fighting roughly human-sized skeletons.
If giant humanoids bother you, I can only imagine your disappointment when players take on dragons and kill it by hacking at it's knees and claws...
I believe Paizo retained the rule that you had to have a higher enhancement bonus then an item to sunder it. It was a change from 3.5, which did not have that rule, back to 3.0, which did.
I can't seem to locate it at the moment. Did it get errata'd out?
==Aelryinth
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Paizo retained the rule that you had to have a higher enhancement bonus then an item to sunder it. It was a change from 3.5, which did not have that rule, back to 3.0, which did.
I can't seem to locate it at the moment. Did it get errata'd out?
==Aelryinth
"not sunder" and "it simply bounces off the magic shield, since the magic shield won't conduct any of its force through itself" are not at all the same thing. Pretty obvious that's stretching it, even for a rule you think might possibly maybe exist.
Whether or not something can be broken, and dampening all vibrations, or force are two dramatically different things. Even if you hypothetical rule does exist, it is not saying at all what you claim it does.
It's a combination of the AC and invulnerability to lesser items rules.
There's a weapon designed for Sundering, it's considered +4 when used to Sunder, so it can destroy more powerful weapons. Shatterspike, I think?
If you have an AC of 40, the giant swings and hits a 39, "bounces off your armor and upraised shield without doing any harm to you" is exactly as valid as "barely scratches along the surface of your shield/armor as you dodge" or "Deals a glancing blow that you roll with and return to the fight."
It's a +5 Magic Shield. It's like a moving wall in front of you, providing twice the protection of a Tower Shield four times its size, and it remains unharmed by anything under +5. A ballista bolt cannot pierce it, bend it, budge it. A touch attack can shove it around, but that has to be the INTENT of the attack. Pushing the shield and hammering through it are two different things the magic takes into account.
It's all in what you believe that +5 means.
===Aelryinth
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's all in what you believe that +5 means.
I think this is probably the best pearl to come out of this thread...If I were DMing this game, and my player with a +5 shield got hit by the equivalent of a locomotive, mechanically they might not have taken damage from the train, but I would have a story about how far away they ended up with x amount of non-lethal damage...(I like low fantasy, so a +5 shield would be an artefact or something)
But, I can easily see how someone might play it as Aelryinth suggests, especially in a high fantasy campaign.
I do not see how either nullifies the point of this thread, that physics can rule in a world with magic...it is just a question of how much magic and how it works (by either augmenting physics or countering it).
That is the second purpose of a DM, to fill in the spaces between the rules.
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Why would anyone believe that a ditrobution of force equates to it not hurting? 1 lb of presure can break human skin IF on a blade edge but on a lorge book it doesnt hurt but take that book and hit very hard it will still hurt(might not gut you but...)
either way, all im saying is just because we are using magic doent mean we have to completly ignore all physics.
If I hit you with a train you should go flying unless you have something that specifically negates the transfer of momentum(good luck finding it anywhere other then an immovable rod with doesnt apply its ability to you)
agian, all im saying is just because we are using magic doent mean we have to completly ignore all physics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Standing still while a train piles up after crashing into you is fine for Superman, but I really don't think there's every been any fantasy novel in which something like that would be accepted. If I'm wrong about that, I'll then argue that the more widely cherished the fantasy story is, the less likelihood there will be for something like that happening.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's all in what you believe that +5 means.
===Aelryinth
And here's the heart of the issue.
I have no problem with you making up house rules that suit your own desires/understandings/etc, but when you talk to someone and present your opinion as official rules, all you accomplish in the long run is to deconstruct your own credibility.
So now we're clear on what item enchantment means to Aelryinth, and that's fine. I disagree that it makes any kind of sense, but that's fine.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Getting hit by a train isn't an attack against AC.
It's an extraordinary effect that allows a reflex save to negate. Your +5 shield does nothing to it, but your boots of reflexes help you jump out of the way.
The giant swinging a club typically is an attack against AC, so your shield can stop or deflect it. If it's a bull rush attempt, I don't think your shield helps you, but other things might.
Strictly speaking, +5 shield means "grants a +5 bonus to shield AC", which makes attacks against AC more likely to have no effect. Attacks which miss have no effect because they miss; kinetics doesn't apply in the absence of magic or giants, so why should it apply in their presence?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting hit by a train isn't an attack against AC...
You missed the point he was trying to make..
He was talking about train-like force. The train crashing into superman: that was a metaphor for discussing the physics.
If you want to insist on including absolute physics in your campaign, then a giant swinging over 1,000 lbs of steel all directed into the sharp, pointy tip of piercing weapon, and all that force amplified by the lever motion of putting that weight on the end of a bat like weapon, then yes sir, you may as well be trying to stop a train with that silly little enchanted shield of yours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A game that follows all of the laws of physics would be a nightmare to create and require it's players to spend thousands of dollars on 10 core processors and tripple SLI brand new graphics cards.
I like to think of 'Logical reactions' instead of 'True Reactions'
If a giant swings a club, your armor isn't going to do much. A magical ward on the other hand might help.
Thing like large dragons or giants should require an alternative fighting method. with a goblin you have a heavy armored player take the brunt of the assault, but with a large dragon the majority of attacks would need to be done at range and defense would be more related to reflexes.
At the same time, a small mouse shouldn't be able to take more than 1 hit from a player, it may be able to evade, but 1 hit = death.
The goal: never have a player think "that should have killed me in 1 hit" or "why do i have to sit here and beat this for half an hour"
I would like to see combat on more of a block/evade defense, where armor simply creates a base line for which strength level behind which weapon will even register damage and some damage reduction(the gap between taking no damage and lots of damage is really small with armor, it either works or it fails). A kid with a club shouldn't be able to bruise a knight in full plate armor, unless the knight forgot to put on his shoes and the kid whacks him in the toe.
But remember, magic exists, so there can be exceptions to the rule. Like making a knight huge, or lots of magic shielding. And that gives you diversity to encounter strategy.
Here's something to think about. Steel-Toe boots are great for dropping small things on your feet. The moment the steel buckles, you're screwed.
A train hitting you is a bull rush attack with a contested check against a size C vehicle with an almighty str mod.
You're going to go flying. Moreover, it's going to be a touch attack, so the AC of the shield won't do much, although it might work on your CMD. I don't even want to think what a locomotives CMB for a Bull Rush is. +100?
A giant with a club swinging at you is an attack against AC. If it misses, absolutely nothing happens...you don't get moved, you don't get a scratch on you. That's the rules of the game. That's a show of invulnerability.
So, there's nothing House Ruled about it. Trying to drag physics into the equation, THAT'S a house rule.
==Aelryinth
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's also what the thread is all about. Nobody ever said bringing physics in wouldn't change the rules, quite the contrary, that's what this thread is all about.
But neither has anybody been saying the results are official rules.
And keep in mind the context that was being discussed: not the giant missing, not the player dodging, but the player intercepting and countering said force with a parry. He then said he wanted to look at that more realistically with physics. No kidding we've been talking about house rules. And we've not been pretending otherwise either...most of us.
A miss is a show of invulnerability only for a DM using your house rules. Another DM could say it's a miss, that the protective field around the armor helped change its course just enough to make it a miss. Or they could come up with another creative explanation. Your rigid interpretation is fine, but let's keep in in context: as your rigid interpretation.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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A heavy axle rail car has a max gross weight of 315,000 lbs; if a train has can carry only ten of those (very conservative) it needs to drag 3.15m pounds under -very- favorable circumstances. I'll give it twice the capacity of 'favorable' circumstances, for 20x "lift off ground.
That means it needs to lift ~160,000 lbs. off of the ground, possible with a strength of 64, or a +27 modifier. +16 for being a size above colossal, for a +43 base CMB.
Got a magic item or extraordinary ability that gives +43 to CMD? Then you can stop a train, some of the time.
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truthfully the rules are an abstraction to simplify determining what happens. this topic applies more to what is being abstracted and how to explain it then what occurs after the abstraction.(well truthfully it started with voiceing a desire to see some realism)
a dm I play under once in awhile likes to describe how things occer using the dice results as a general outcome then he adds appropriate details that might of ended in those abstracted results.
So what I would like to see is some realism, for example; if a giant attacks with his morningstar, if it kills me then i might see me get squished, if it hits but im alive then it struck me sideways and sent me flying or it just squished my arm, if it missed then i sidestepped or it swung too high, if i parried then what i see is me jumping up and using my sword to intercept and push me to the side of the strike(this is how a real parry would work in this case) etc, etc, etc... (sry im a The King and I fan)
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Goblin Squad Member
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A heavy axle rail car has a max gross weight of 315,000 lbs; if a train has can carry only ten of those (very conservative) it needs to drag 3.15m pounds under -very- favorable circumstances. I'll give it twice the capacity of 'favorable' circumstances, for 20x "lift off ground.
That means it needs to lift ~160,000 lbs. off of the ground, possible with a strength of 64, or a +27 modifier. +16 for being a size above colossal, for a +43 base CMB.Got a magic item or extraordinary ability that gives +43 to CMD? Then you can stop a train, some of the time.
That's a train that isn't moving. Now trying calculating the force to stop said train moving at a mere...let's say 30 mph.
You can use this site to check different weights.
What strength score does it take to lift 9,483,634 lbs? because that's the force we're talking about.
Oh, and it's still a metaphor we're talking about, so not even sure what the purpose of your response was.
I'm all for physical realism. After all, if you can drown in the water, it makes little sense not to have you die from a fall. Or be able to duck behind a pole to avoid being skewered by a lance or shot by an arrow. One thing I don't want to see, is point and click combat that avoids LOS rules. If the arrow is loosed, and I move, AND I'm far enough away, the arrow misses. I don't CARE about class skill at that point. Assuming I can see the arrow coming. If I get it in the back, or in the knee, that's just the way things go.
If someone starts casting a spell, but I move out of LOS prior to completion, they have no more target, unless they intended to aoe the area in the first place. And if it's a burst attack, and I'm behind something that is between me and the burst point, that's cover, unless the burst destroys the cover and has anything left over.
Which brings up another point. Frags. Barrels and such should clatter and knock about. If I am standing at ground zero on a fireball, not only do I burn, I should get knocked back as well if not outright flattened. And if there are other items knocking about that hit me, that's more incidental damage. This should allow things like caltrops to be useful, and smoke bombs. As well as the odd flaming oil lantern. And thrown boulders by giants. Or thrown people when they get tagged by dragon tail.
A heavy axle rail car has a max gross weight of 315,000 lbs; if a train has can carry only ten of those (very conservative) it needs to drag 3.15m pounds under -very- favorable circumstances. I'll give it twice the capacity of 'favorable' circumstances, for 20x "lift off ground.
That means it needs to lift ~160,000 lbs. off of the ground, possible with a strength of 64, or a +27 modifier. +16 for being a size above colossal, for a +43 base CMB.Got a magic item or extraordinary ability that gives +43 to CMD? Then you can stop a train, some of the time.
That's a train that isn't moving. Now trying calculating the force to stop said train moving at a mere...let's say 30 mph.
You can use this site to check different weights.
What strength score does it take to lift 9,483,634 lbs? because that's the force we're talking about.
Oh, and it's still a metaphor we're talking about, so not even sure what the purpose of your response was.
Lift 9 million pounds (4500 tons) or DRAG 4500 tons? Because his above example is drag 3.15 million lbs, 20x lifting capablity. Dragging 9 million pounds is x3, which is only +7 Str or a 71 Str, under the "Doubles every 5 points" rule.
64 Str lifting 160k lbs is 80 tons. That's just a little bit weaker then the THing's original Str score of 85 tons. Heh! A 72 Str is going to be 3.2 times that, or 256 tons...about as strong as berserk Thor with his str boosting belt on in the Marvel comics, or a really pissed Hulk.
Or either of them wearing a +6 Girdle of Giant Str! (They have base 66 Str scores)
==Aelryinth
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Goblin Squad Member
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Took me some posts to realize that this threat is in the Pathfinder Online Section..
To response to the OP:
1 Unless you are a Duellist you don't parry. An attack will hit your AC or not, if you are hasted and have dodge, chances are that you just dodged that blow.
2 Games with enemies you can never ever beat aren't fun in my book. In 3.0 they gave the Gods stats, and if they have stats, I can kill it. It doesn't have to be easy, but it can be done.
3 I would not mind giving things like Awesome blow to big stuff would be fun in pen and paper, but not so much in an online RPG. I played WOW way to long, and tanked quite a bit, to realize that this would suck for me(if it happened evey time).
4 Physics: To some extend the current rules have some logic - things get bigger -> they get stronger. But even if you look at the rules about carrying stuff... a level 20 human fighter with a strength of 40 could carry only a fraction of the weight a gargantuan creature with lower strength could lift. But curiously the when it comes to breaking down walls or doors, they are on equal footing again.
I could go on how magic defies physics, but it would not help.
What I want from Pathfinder Online is to be a fun game to play, EVERYTHING else is secondary.