Who's the better party healer?


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Liberty's Edge

So I'm going to be the oly divine caster/healer in our group and I was debating wether to play a cleric or an oracle. So which one is a better party healer whil still having other things to contribute to the group other than party band aid?


I played a Life Oracle in Council of Thieves and I always had something to do.

A cleric may get access to spells one level earlier and the Healing Domain, Oracles can get a lot to help healing along.

Since you get the Cure Spells for free and several other spells that deal with health, you can pick spells like Arrow of Law, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster, and Holy Smite. Use spells like that when the party doesn't need healing.

Silver Crusade

It is a mater of preference they both can do the job. It more depends on what you want them to do. I think clerics make better casting base then oracles most of the time. Oracles make better combat base then clerics. That is just my opine of them. Personally I will never make a casting divine caster with out a static group. The reason is it takes them much longer to get to a effective level then arcane casters. Combat divine casters do not have this problem. And is why most of my characters are built with this idea. My personal choice is a reach weapon to attack from behind the fighter. Either with a attack or add another depending on the AC of the enemy.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Oracle of Life. With the "Energy Body" revelation, you can heal an ally or yourself as a move action. You can take the Channel energy revelation to channel as a standard action, and if you get the Swift Channel feat, that's even more. Given that Oracles are a CHA-based healer, the Selective Channel feat excludes more enemies, making it more viable to use in combat while enemies are still around.

With the Life Link, you can funnel energy to a tank while staying far back. If you need to, you can cast a Cure spell on yourself without getting too deep into the fray.

Also, the other subtle benefits of Energy Body are that you gain the elemental subtype. That comes with a whole boatload of immunities while the form lasts. Also you get free spells from your mystery (Cures, Removes, Restorations) making it easy to just pick a few other spells here and there.


I haven't run an oracle yet (may be my next character).

However, with some messing-around builds and what i have looked at on line, is seems like the oracle may be slightly better healer (if you take the right abilities). Since can spam a higher number of cures. I also like that your channels (if you take this) are higher DC and more ea day since you are all charisma.

The cleric, of course, gives you POTENTIALLY more to contribute out side of healing since it is a prepared caster. However, that relies on a good selection of which spells to prepare. If you always prepare the same few generally useful spells, the oracle could spam more of them in a day as needed.


Cleric with the Restoration (Healing) domain is the ultimate healer...and stronger than Oracle in most other ways, as well.

Silver Crusade

What every one forgets about. Is after you can cast heal all other healing is inferior. Prelevel 11-12 the little special healing ability's matter. Past level 5 channel positive energy is useless in combat. It is still good after combat but not in combat healing. Every class that can cast heal or even use a heal scroll is just as good as any other class that can cast that spell. And before that wands of cure light wounds are the cheap way to heal out of combat that relay opens up the list of characters that can heal the party. After level 10 no one should be casting a cure spell in combat. Unless some one hase drooped to neg HP. There are just so many more things you can do to affect the out come of a fight that are better then healing.

Classes with cure light wounds on there spell list.
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Ranger
Inquisitor
Oracle
Edit : Witch (DOH: for got one of the best casting base healers.)

Classes with the heal spell.
Cleric
Druid
Oracle
Witch
Inquisitor
Classes that can use heal scrolls with enough UMD.
Bard
Sorcerer


Pure healing life oracle is the best, i'd say the restoration sub domain cleric is better for condition removal, paladin is decent for a hybrid, bard has much better buffs, witch has much better debuffs.

It really depends on what you want to do with your character as to what you build.

Heal is the top end of the spells but depending on what your fighting the mass cure wounds spells can be excellent, also the life oracle keeps cure light and cure moderate in play for longer, it can even use cure light wounds with lifelink and combat healer at high levels to keep its level 1 spells relevant.

Bard is good for buffing but gets its spells late. Witch is good but its not a spontaneous caster, the healing hex and greater healing hex make up for that a little. Paladin can heal but its mostly channelling or loh and it does get a little less effective as you get higher level. Cleric is a strong caster but its domain powers don't really hold up to revelations that the oracle gets, but he does get heal soonest. Druid gets healing spells but they need preparing and it gets heal late, druid would be my last pick since its spells are not as good as the other classes so unless you want a combat character with slightly better healing at high levels than a paladin i'd steer clear.


If healing includes removes disease and spells like restoration then I say the cleric. He can prepare them as he needs them. An oracle would have them taking up a spell slot or need to have the scrolls handy.


Or be a life oracle and get them all as well as your normal spells...


Egoish wrote:
Heal is the top end of the spells but depending on what your fighting the mass cure wounds spells can be excellent, also the life oracle keeps cure light and cure moderate in play for longer, it can even use cure light wounds with lifelink and combat healer at high levels to keep its level 1 spells relevant.

Let's not forget that, if the pick Safe Curing, any spell they cast that heals no longer provoke Attacks of Opportunity.


If psionics are allowed, you should check out the Vitalist.

Dreamscarred Press - Psionics Expanded Mind Over Body

Silver Crusade

They make wands for Remove X condition. Stock up. It is better then haven it prepared, or losing a day to get it ready. And for as much as you use them will last a long long time befor you need to get a new one. With the exception of lesser restoration. You want that on a wand for the same reason you want cure light wounds wands. You will need allot of castings of it when you need it. Far more then the cleric or oracle will have open or want to use to fix it.

Witch Archetype (Hedge Witch)
Patron Healing
At Th level can spontaneous cast cure. And now has most of the remove condition X spells. That they can use a wand with out UMD.


If you want to be a dedicated healer, a Life Oracle might be your best choice. If you want to be a really good healer that is also capable of doing more than just healing, go with a Cleric. Plenty of channels, and since any prepared spell can be dropped for a cure, you can prepare more fun, flavourful spells. Plus, you don't need to use some of your precious few spells known on things like Remove Blindness/Deafness, which you likely won't need every day, but you'll really want if your party's tank can't see. With a cleric, you can say, "I'll fix that tomorrow," (or fix it in 15 minutes of you left a spell slot open). With an oracle, you have to wait a level, or buy a scroll/potion/wand (which isn't always an option depending on where you are).

I'm playing a Cleric of Gozreh right now, and I'm loving it (and I probably just made the optimizers cry, but they can stfu, it's fun). I might be a more effective healer as a Life Oracle, but I'd much rather put up a Wind Wall and flip enemy archers the bird. Having a huge list of spells to pick from every day rocks.

Are you playing in an AP, or a homebrew campaign? In a game like Council of Thieves, a skill-starved cleric might not be the best choice over an oracle. (From what I've played of that campaign so far (not with my cleric, I'm playing an archaeologist bard), skills are important.) On the other hand, if you're about to start Carrion Crown, having to wait an extra level to get second-level spells is gonna hurt.


Witch....

so your friends will think about being healed instead of demanding it all the time!


I tried playing an oracle on a new character and just didn't like it. Unlike some players, I don't fudge saving throw rolls, so I ended up failing lots of saves as an oracle. I switched my character to a cleric and was much happier. Good fortitude saves and wisdom as a primary statistic make clerics much better at saves than oracles.


calagnar wrote:

Past level 5 channel positive energy is useless in combat. It is still good after combat but not in combat healing. Every class that can cast heal or even use a heal scroll is just as good as any other class that can cast that spell. And before that wands of cure light wounds are the cheap way to heal out of combat that relay opens up the list of characters that can heal the party. After level 10 no one should be casting a cure spell in combat. Unless some one hase drooped to neg HP. There are just so many more things you can do to affect the out come of a fight that are better then healing.

Much here is wrong. Since Channel is SU, it’s always nice, and it scales. Its very handy is your get the feat which allows you to exclude foes.

Healing during combat is always far better than letting a fellow party member drop, and it is better to cast before they drop, instead of after. Sure “topping off’ is best done after combat, but whenever a buddy is one good hit away from going down, it’s best to heal him, unless you can 100% drop the foe this round.

Relying on Wands of CLW is a trap. They blow thru party funds like a drunken pirate.

Liberty's Edge

Relying on wands of Remove X at higher levels is problematic. The caster needs to do a caster level check, using the wands minimum caster level and minimum stat bonus, against a DC that will likely be very high for high-level adventuring parties. Most Remove spells are 3rd level spells, so those wands have a whopping +6 for the check. Users will be bleeding charges until they beat the DC. Not very efficient use of party funds.

Asking your party cleric to burn a feat to Create Wands is not a real option either.


DrDeth wrote:
calagnar wrote:

Past level 5 channel positive energy is useless in combat. It is still good after combat but not in combat healing. Every class that can cast heal or even use a heal scroll is just as good as any other class that can cast that spell. And before that wands of cure light wounds are the cheap way to heal out of combat that relay opens up the list of characters that can heal the party. After level 10 no one should be casting a cure spell in combat. Unless some one hase drooped to neg HP. There are just so many more things you can do to affect the out come of a fight that are better then healing.

Much here is wrong. Since Channel is SU, it’s always nice, and it scales. Its very handy is your get the feat which allows you to exclude foes.

Healing during combat is always far better than letting a fellow party member drop, and it is better to cast before they drop, instead of after. Sure “topping off’ is best done after combat, but whenever a buddy is one good hit away from going down, it’s best to heal him, unless you can 100% drop the foe this round.

Relying on Wands of CLW is a trap. They blow thru party funds like a drunken pirate.

so my level 5 fighter has 52hp, your healing with channel for 3d6 or averaging around 10.5hp healed. maybe 1/5 of my hp, or up to a maximum of 18 which is slightly over 1/3 my hp. this is not very much when you think about the damage that comes flying in towards a fighter at level 5, hell even a fireball averages 17.5 at level 5 on a failed save, single target attacks will be hitting even harder.

this only gets worse as you level, at level 9 your healing for 5d6 with a channel, a level 9 fighter will probably have 100+ hp and your averaging 17.5 healing with your channel, basicly useless.

however at level 9 cure moderate wounds (a level two spell) is healing for 2d8+9 or an average of 18, better than a channel on a single target and has a better low end heal value as well.

honestly all healing in combat is inefficient as prevention is better than patching, which is why people spend so much time using battlefield control to avoid getting hit, but i do agree that sometimes someone needs to throw out a heal when the fighters on single digit hp.

channel is ok to fire off if you find your party getting fireballed once every 2 rounds or to top up some light aoe. if one person is taking a beating its just not good enough and npc's aren't normally nice enough to spread their damage out over a load of targets for you to easily heal.

happy sticks are only a trap if your party is taking lots of damage, if your going the happy stick route you should be avoid most of the damage coming at you and using 2 or 3 charges each to top up after an encounter. that means a 4 person party will use between 8 and 12 per encounter or have a happy stick last about 5 encounters which is about the number of equal cr encounters it takes to level up, thats pretty cheap.


DrDeth wrote:


Much here is wrong. Since Channel is SU, it’s always nice, and it scales. Its very handy is your get the feat which allows you to exclude foes.

Healing during combat is always far better than letting a fellow party member drop, and it is better to cast before they drop, instead of after. Sure “topping off’ is best done after combat, but whenever a buddy is one good hit away from going down, it’s best to heal him, unless you can 100% drop the foe this round.

Relying on Wands of CLW is a trap. They blow thru party funds like a drunken pirate.

Well, that's your opinion, just like that "wrong" stuff was other peoples opinions. I disagree with you on a few counts, these are my opinions:

1) Healing during combat never scales with level. You always heal for less damage than a well optimized damage dealer can dole out in any given round. Even after you get the Heal spell It's already possible for a damage dealer to outdo that healing.

2) Your healing will never be as awesome as the crowd control you could have cast. If all the badguys are blind/held/sleeping etc then you eliminate the need for healing an counter numerous rounds of incoming damage with one spell. In almost every case one glitterdust can prevent more damage than one heal can recover.

3) Defensive spells that have a duration are also better than a heal spell wasted. Check out the benefits of a shield spell or barkskin vs one heal of equal level.

4) The only time it makes sense to heal anyone is if they are down and they can still be productive, and this can be done with a potion/wand/scroll if needed. The same holds true with status effect removal.

The best role a cleric fills in combat is using whatever he has at his disposal to either control or kill the enemy, resorting to healing only when absolutely needed. Of course melee focused clerics can be in situations where healing outstrips damage, especially channeling. At that point, obviously healing is better. OTOH the cleric could probably have some scrolls for such a situation with some control spells on them.


Grimmzorch wrote:
So I'm going to be the oly divine caster/healer in our group and I was debating wether to play a cleric or an oracle. So which one is a better party healer whil still having other things to contribute to the group other than party band aid?

The most powerful healer in the game is the Merciful Healer cleric archetype. This is followed closely in second place by the Oracle of Life. These 2 choices are way ahead of anything else when it comes to healing.

Silver Crusade

I just think it's cheaper to wand cure and restoration effects. It frees up divine caster spell slots for other things. Even then if I was to make a casting base healer. It wold be a witch because they can do the job better then a cleric. They have a much more effective spell list then the divine caster. If I was to make a combat divine caster I'll take the oracle almost every time. The main reason for this is Battle revelation is much more effect the any of the domains a cleric can get(IMO).

Having played many high level games wanting restoration effects is a must. There is no way to keep enough of the spells you need on your x/day list. To keep removing the effects that happen at this level all the time. I make characters with the idea that they are going to need to be effective at all levels of play, and I can slack on the early levels the with out to much of a problem. There is no slack for higher level games. It's just how the system works.


Azten wrote:

A cleric may get access to spells one level earlier and the Healing Domain, Oracles can get a lot to help healing along.

Since you get the Cure Spells for free and several other spells that deal with health, you can pick spells like Arrow of Law, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster, and Holy Smite. Use spells like that when the party doesn't need healing.

Something to consider here is the 'healing benefit' of Summon Monster spells. My Master Summoner has discovered that damage you never take is healing that you never need. That you have absolute damage reduction and the ultimate armor class vs. attacks that are never made against you. Ever since I've joined the group our party healer complains that she rarely has anything to do... and Summoned monsters can continue to act during rounds that you're doing something else.


Wiggz wrote:
Azten wrote:

A cleric may get access to spells one level earlier and the Healing Domain, Oracles can get a lot to help healing along.

Since you get the Cure Spells for free and several other spells that deal with health, you can pick spells like Arrow of Law, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster, and Holy Smite. Use spells like that when the party doesn't need healing.

Something to consider here is the 'healing benefit' of Summon Monster spells. My Master Summoner has discovered that damage you never take is healing that you never need. That you have absolute damage reduction and the ultimate armor class vs. attacks that are never made against you. Ever since I've joined the group our party healer complains that she rarely has anything to do... and Summoned monsters can continue to act during rounds that you're doing something else.

A lot of the things you summon have spells and spell like abilities. A number of them can heal. And they are around a minute per level if you use the summoner ability.


I agree a summoner is a better party healer.


Paladins can make surprisingly good healers too especially with some of the later feats in ultimate magic and ultimate combat. Hospitalers can have two different healing pools and a paladin can also gain bard spells to augment his contributions. Halfling paladins in particular have more than most to offer. For such a paladin the feat "in harm's way" can be very useful as well as the 'helpful' trait (helpful increases the bonus given by the bodyguard feat).

Channel is great if your party is capable enough to spread the damage out. If you are one of the types (or in a party of this type) that thinks that only one person in the party should ever see damage on a regular basis then healing (without the heal spell) is generally going to be a fairly weak endeavor though.

Don't forget that in many cases the heal skill (and alchemical items) can offer enough of a bonus to help you get past poisons and diseases. Mercies are good for this as well if you do go paladin.

Lantern Lodge

Clerics have better survivability then Life Oracles in most cases.

They can also take on other roles other then healers, have earlier access to higher level spells (Which can be CRITICAL as certain levels.) and is able to swap out spells as needed.

This means you gain earlier access to spells like Lesser Restoration, Rise Dead, Breath of Life and other important "party saver" spells.

As a Cleric you gain access to ALL SPELLS on your spell list. You don't even need to buy them like a wizard. This means you can swap out spells as you need. For example getting summoning spells if the party is facing lots of combat, or swapping yo remove poison and restoration spells if the enemies are hitting the party with venom and stings.

Also, Clerics have access to the Sacred Summons feat. This can be very powerful, especially if your DM allows it to work on summoned animals. You can summon monsters as a standard action, which can be used to tank damage, control the battlefield or just to tie up the enemy for your wizard or sorcerer to get their fireball out.

Clerics have more options then Oracles.

Dark Archive

It's funny you mention the summoner; the First Worlder is actually an amazing healer mid-levels on. Seriously, unicorn magic for minutes / lvl should not exist :).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Personally, I'd prefer the Cleric, mainly due to their ability to channel positive energy and therefore heal multiple allies at once, without actually using up spell slots. Plus, you get access to some higher-level spell slots earlier on, can spontaneously cast heal spells (and thus prepare whatever you please, and use healing if absolutely necessary), and, as interesting and sometimes beneficial as the Oracle's Curse can be, I think they're an unnecessary detriment.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

summoners are outrageous- they're the best at everything, so if you want the best party healer pick that. and tell your friends, you can all play summoners. [/rant]

the OP was which is better cleric or oracle. like any question of this type the answer is: "it depends on what you want to do." it sounds like you want to be just good enough at healing that nobody worries about it, but you'd prefer not to have that be your defining characteristics. if that's true i'd just run with it- in most of the campaigns i play in we average 3-4 encounters in the -1 to +1 CR range on serious adventuring days and we almost never have a cleric with the healing domain or a life oracle and we've never had any problems. pick any cleric you like or any oracle you like (just take spontaneous or freely known cures) and you'll probably be fine.

a stargazer heavens oracle with the starsoul eldritch heritage feats is fun. or a lore oracle with the arcane e.h. feats. you could also pick an elemental mystery with the feats for a related bloodline (and if you're high enough level with enough free feats, you could even take one of the genie based martial arts styles). there's a lot of cool stuff you could do with a straight cleric too, i just can't think of it right now, lol... maybe rely on buff spells to make a tripping reach wpn user (especially if your GM allows the "guided" weapon property) who selectively uses versatile channelling as a move action to deal damage between trips...

Lantern Lodge

Thalin wrote:
It's funny you mention the summoner; the First Worlder is actually an amazing healer mid-levels on. Seriously, unicorn magic for minutes / lvl should not exist :).

@_@? I'm confused. When has Unicorns been on any....

OH!!!! I see it now! Its added to the list...

While its kinda limited in combat. Out of combat, unicorns can heal quite a bit. Especially once you get more then 1 out at a time.

Dark Archive

I'd go with cleric.

First World Summoner, blowing a fourth level spell to get three cure light wounds and a cure moderate wounds, is an option, but I'm not sure it's all that and a wedge of cheese.


Specifically, they heal about 59 points on average (over just four rounds) and can take a shot at Neutralize Poison while they're at it. (And then run into the next battle as a reasonable combatant - how about that magic circle against evil aura?) That's a significant chunk of a wand of cure light wounds. That's per unicorn, too. (It's also essentially the only thing first worlders get in exchange for having the rest of his summon list weakened and the eidolon taken down quite a few notches, which helps make up for it a bit.) First Worlder might as well have just been called "unicorn summoner", because that's what they get that's of much consequence. (Some of the other summons added at the upper end are also worth looking at.)


Lastoth wrote:


1) Healing during combat never scales with level. You always heal for less damage than a well optimized damage dealer can dole out in any given round. Even after you get the Heal spell It's already possible for a damage dealer to outdo that healing.

2) Your healing will never be as awesome as the crowd control you could have cast. If all the badguys are blind/held/sleeping etc then you eliminate the need for healing an counter numerous rounds of incoming damage with one spell. In almost every case one glitterdust can prevent more damage than one heal can recover.
4) The only time it makes sense to heal anyone is if they are down and they can still be productive, and this can be done with a potion/wand/scroll if needed. The same holds true with status effect removal.

The best role a cleric fills in combat is using whatever he has at his disposal to either control or kill the enemy, resorting to healing only when absolutely needed. .

1. It does and it can be optimized also. Look, Channel does 1/2 die per level- NO save. Fireball etc does 1 die per level- save for half. If your guys save, Channel keeps up with the damage. And there's no ER for Channel on your friends.

2. Yes, if the foes fail their saves. *IF*.

4. Or, if they are about to be dropped by one more hit. True, "topping off" is something best to leave after combat.

Actually I have found that a cleric works best by buffing his entire team, leaving battlefield control to the.... controler. The best cleric buffs, buffs, hits, then does damage control as needed on any one really hurt bad.

I think I have probably played clerics longer than most posters here.... <g>


I'd have to go with Cleric as the best healer.

Channelling seems to be getting a really bad press, but is easy to enhance.

To get the best out of healing I think you should go with with a cleric of the Heal/Restoration Domain.

Charisma is of equal importance to wisdom for a healing cleric, as it gives you more channels per day and allows you to select out more creatures.

When using selective channelling remember:

1. You don't need to worry about undead/outsiders/elementals/constructs etc...you don't effect them anyway.

2. Don't worry about opponents who are not wounded and select out lightly wounded targets after heavily wounded ones, just make sure that the opponents who are being targeted are selected out.

You can improve your healing from channelling with a phylactory of positive channelling, and if your GM allows third party feats, the Font of Life feat (this is why you need the healing domain). Add these two together and at 7th level your channel will heal an average of 33hp.

Remember that channelling also heals you......so make sure you have Shield Other memorised, and use it on the tank. That way the tank gets a minor buff, and can take an average 66hp in a round and shrug it off at 7th lvl, without having to get concerned, and everyone else in the party gets a nice heal too.

As a cleric Reach is very useful, both in feat and (relatively cheap) rod form. This way you can get off your (empowered after 6th lvl) cures without having to get into AoO danger. Also very useful when casting Breath of Life at later levels.

Having a cleric means that you can keep the party standing whilst you prepare fun spells from a long long list. Much the better option.


I would hope you role wound not soley be healing injured players, If that was the case ask to be a intelligent wand of cure light wounds.

All said and done I have seen a witch heal remarkably, as well as debuff for the party.

I play a negative healing cleric who cast shield other death kiss and burn to heal, 6d6 damage/ healing 2x a round as an area effect burst of thirty. As well as a umd in the twenties and probably can cast better than most mages, 8 cleric 2 PFS pathfinder savant.

There is another cleric lord Zod that can produce massive fire balls and has an AC in the mid 40's.

Yet another cleric specializes in channeling to destroy outsiders.

I know another player how does channel smite and watch out if this viking crits.


DrDeth wrote:
Lastoth wrote:


1) Healing during combat never scales with level. You always heal for less damage than a well optimized damage dealer can dole out in any given round. Even after you get the Heal spell It's already possible for a damage dealer to outdo that healing.

2) Your healing will never be as awesome as the crowd control you could have cast. If all the badguys are blind/held/sleeping etc then you eliminate the need for healing an counter numerous rounds of incoming damage with one spell. In almost every case one glitterdust can prevent more damage than one heal can recover.
4) The only time it makes sense to heal anyone is if they are down and they can still be productive, and this can be done with a potion/wand/scroll if needed. The same holds true with status effect removal.

The best role a cleric fills in combat is using whatever he has at his disposal to either control or kill the enemy, resorting to healing only when absolutely needed. .

1. It does and it can be optimized also. Look, Channel does 1/2 die per level- NO save. Fireball etc does 1 die per level- save for half. If your guys save, Channel keeps up with the damage. And there's no ER for Channel on your friends.

2. Yes, if the foes fail their saves. *IF*.

4. Or, if they are about to be dropped by one more hit. True, "topping off" is something best to leave after combat.

Actually I have found that a cleric works best by buffing his entire team, leaving battlefield control to the.... controler. The best cleric buffs, buffs, hits, then does damage control as needed on any one really hurt bad.

I think I have probably played clerics longer than most posters here.... <g>

1.An optimized damage dealer is not using fireball. If he is optimized for evocation your channeling is not going to keep up.

2.I think glitterdust was a bad specific example but the general point of preventing damage is still correct.
4. I think healing before they drop is better than after though, even though the general solution is to work with your party so that situation almost never comes up.

Lantern Lodge

I'm not saying its optimized, but you can make Clerics that can heal for just as much damage as a well optimized damage dealer.

Example, Party got hit by a Maximized Fireball (lv11) for 66 points of damage.

A Heal domain Cleric (lv11) with Quick Channel + Phylactery of Positive Channeling + 1 Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, heals

8d6 + (2d8+11)x1.5(aka+50%) = averaging 32 + 31 = 63 points (give or take)


You are still won't keep up, and empowered spells combined with quickened ones still do more damage, especially when intensified spell comes on line later.
Quickened empowered is 52(average)+66(maximized)=117. Boosting the DC with elemental focus+ spell focus and so on makes the save very unlikely.


Secane wrote:

I'm not saying its optimized, but you can make Clerics that can heal for just as much damage as a well optimized damage dealer.

Example, Party got hit by a Maximized Fireball (lv11) for 66 points of damage.

A Heal domain Cleric (lv11) with Quick Channel + Phylactery of Positive Channeling + 1 Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, heals

8d6 + (2d8+11)x1.5(aka+50%) = averaging 32 + 31 = 63 points (give or take)

First, a caster isn't an optimized damage dealer class. A caster can do okay damage, blasters aren't top tier damage all the time. Go try to outheal the damage AM BARBARIAN is dishing out, or my archer ranger builds. For that matter any archer build from a combat class should easily out deal damage.

Also, the melee/archer damage does this every round, a cleric doesn't have unlimited healing. I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

You should say you can make a cleric who can keep up with damage from a non optimized non DPR class, for short periods of time.


An optimised heal domain cleric with phylactary and quickened channelling uses two of his daily channellings and a sixth level spell to counter a non optimised 6th level spell, and thats an argument for channelling?

A 11th level cross/wildblooded sorc with lineage, empower and quicken uses a 4th level slot and a 6th level slot and does 25d6+50 damage 132.5 average damage on a failed save, if he optimises his save DC's he'll be forcing saves of 24 or higher which its likely only a good reflex save class in light armour or someone who's optimised (paladin or superstious barb with human bonus) to get unusually high save bonuses will pass.

If you add two more levels to 13 and factor in intensified the damage goes up by 7d6+14, if you want to use 2 7th pevel slots insted of a low and a high you can add dazing to your first fireball and cause everyone who fails their save to lose an action. 172 average damage dc24 or more, failed save dazed for 3 rounds.

As lastoth mentioned thats not even a top end optimised damage class, an archer or melee character could do double that damage to a single target all day every day not just for a few rounds.

Healing cannot keep up, but a life oracle can suck that damage to itself with life link and keep the party stable (with the exact same channels as a cleric but more often per day due to primary stat being cha) but even a life oracle will eventually lose unless the party takes measures to avoid the damage. Overall the oracle has more tricks than the cleric, thats just the way the classes pan out and its what makes the oracle a better healer, anything a healing cleric can do a life oracle can do just as well if not better.

As well as that at level 4 a cleric will have 4+1 1st and 3+1 2nd level spells memorised, an oracle will know 3+1+cure 1st level and 1+1+cure 2nd level spells. The cleric does have a benefit in the spells he can choose from but only has one different spell per day than an oracle and that will probably get converted.

There are many healing options which are all sub optimal but the best of those options is oracle for pure healing, i'd probably lean towards a sacred summons cleric or a debuff witch with healing and scar hexes if i were building a happy stick user myself but if you just want to heal oracle has the strongest package.

Dark Archive

It's not "blow a 4th level spell"; it's "blow a 7th level ability you can use 11 times per day". And the unicorn is also good both as a mount and a combat buddy (he does last minutes). And you can do other stuff while he is healing.


The best healer out there isn't the life oracle in my opinion, but the merciful healer cleric. He adds paladin mercies to his channel energy uses, greatly adding to the utility of that power.

The Life oracle and the standard healing domain cleric come in next. The free empower to all cure wounds spells for the healing domain is quite powerful, while the life oracle gets to add bonus HP with his cures (less waste), ignore the level cap for low level healing spells, and channel energy is using the same stat as the rest of his spellcasting. If you are more concerned about resources, the life oracle is a better choice, but if you anticipate healing in combat, I'd choose the healing domain cleric.

Also good is a hospitaller paladin (halfling is the "best" race choice here) as they get channel energy in addition to lay on hands.


wraithstrike wrote:

You are still won't keep up,

You don't really have to keep up though.. you just have to mitigate.

Its not as if the duration of the combats at the level you are talking about is prolonged.

If the enemy deals enough damage to drop someone in 2 rounds and your one action makes it so it would take 3 then you've done the job as the fight is going to be over at that point... while if you didn't then the guy looking to be dropped in 2 rounds would need to take other actions to defend themselves.

That's the point of support that you augment someone else so that they can concentrate on doing their job. Healing is support.

-James


The life oracle also has safe curing, battle cleric, life link and energy body. Thats on top of spirit boost, channel and enhanced cures which you mention.

Mercys are ok, but they aren't more valuable than better healing for a full healing spec since you won't use them often, heal and restoration remove many conditions anyway, the paladin mercys that are really good are limited to use against fear and sickening effects as well as paralysis, deafen and blind at higher levels when you can afford to keep a slot spare to remove them with a 2nd level spell and you have access to heal by the time you have full access to the list which basicly fixes everything. Overall healing is about keeping hp numbers above zero, its not an mmo where you need to decurse or cure every third spell so your tank doesn't eat it in one hit, conditions in pathfinder are either a minor debuff or short duration. The worst few that deny you actions are only available for removal via high level mercys, which are in themselves copies of low level spells...

Remove sickness and fear 1st level
Remove paralysis and blindness 2nd level
Remove curse and disease 3rd level

Of those only sickness (in the form of nauseated), fear (in the form of frightened), paralysis and curse (in the slow format) actually deny actions and the curse is a very rare form. With two 1st and one 2nd level spell you've overcome most of the need for mercys. By level 15 when a mercy user can overcome the big 3 (nauseated, frightened and paralysed) any full caster will have slots spare to take a couple of level 1 and a level 2 spell in preperation.

The life oracle gets access to mass heal at level 16 as an 8th level spell. This is huge, most AP's end at 17ish so most clerics will never even see this spell. On top of this the dual cursed archtype can take the fortune and misfortune revelations and become a re-roll machine for the partys failed saves as well as forcing opponents to re-roll critical threats, the amount of damage mitigation those abilities provide is probably better than any other ability any other class gets.


peterrco wrote:

I'd have to go with Cleric as the best healer.

Channelling seems to be getting a really bad press, but is easy to enhance.

To get the best out of healing I think you should go with with a cleric of the Heal/Restoration Domain.

Charisma is of equal importance to wisdom for a healing cleric, as it gives you more channels per day and allows you to select out more creatures.

When using selective channelling remember:

1. You don't need to worry about undead/outsiders/elementals/constructs etc...you don't effect them anyway.

2. Don't worry about opponents who are not wounded and select out lightly wounded targets after heavily wounded ones, just make sure that the opponents who are being targeted are selected out.

You can improve your healing from channelling with a phylactory of positive channelling, and if your GM allows third party feats, the Font of Life feat (this is why you need the healing domain). Add these two together and at 7th level your channel will heal an average of 33hp.

Remember that channelling also heals you......so make sure you have Shield Other memorised, and use it on the tank. That way the tank gets a minor buff, and can take an average 66hp in a round and shrug it off at 7th lvl, without having to get concerned, and everyone else in the party gets a nice heal too.

As a cleric Reach is very useful, both in feat and (relatively cheap) rod form. This way you can get off your (empowered after 6th lvl) cures without having to get into AoO danger. Also very useful when casting Breath of Life at later levels.

Having a cleric means that you can keep the party standing whilst you prepare fun spells from a long long list. Much the better option.

My dm judges thrid party feats on case to case bais what is the feat font of life in and what does it do?

Silver Crusade

Our current party has a witch and a paladin as healers and we have seemed to do okay so far. The only time that things went really wrong for them was when the witch took one too many jolts from Shocking Grasp and ended up unconscious. That was when the busted out the Wand of Cure Light Wounds that they had bought as a "backup healer."


Font of life gives you +2 hp healed per channel die used, its a good feat but only available to people with domains.

Not sure where its from though, one of my friends is using it but i can't remember where he found it.


If your DM will allow it despite the mention of "Arcane Caster level" Life Oracle with Skill Focus: Knowledge (I'd say Planes or Religion, but can be any), Eldritch Heritage Arcane Bloodline for a familiar, Improved Familiar for a Silvanshee Agathion familiar. Nothing will die. Ever.


Font of Life is from the Freeport Companion (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Edition)

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