I am starting up a new campaign for a few of my close friends in a few weeks. Well one of my friends has his character all set and is really excited about playing him. That is until I told him that Monkey Grip (3.5 D&D feat from Complete Warrior) wasn't reprinted in Pathfinder RPG.
Also for those of you who don't know, Monkey Grip is a feat that allows you to use Two-Handed Weapons, a step larger than your character, but still at the usually -2 penalty to attack rolls. The prerequisites for the feat are: Str 13, and Base Attack Bonus +1.
So I am looking for some advice, should I just allow him his happiness and allow the feat? Even though another player stated that they themselves would be upset if I give him the feat, because he believes all he wants to do is power game, and there is no reason why he should HAVE to wield a Large Great Axe.
He should go barbarian titan mauler
Yes, there is that too. I am personally Afraid he wants to start dual-wielding Large Greataxes.
oh stop it before it's to late, break it to him or give a large penalty to wielding oversized 2 handed weapons.
Well I found the feat Lighten Weapon, but apperently its not good enough, since he wants it at 1st level
Lighten Weapon (Combat)
You can balance heavy weapons, making them easier to wield.
Prerequisite: Str 13, BAB +3.
Benefit: Choose one type of weapon. When using a weapon of that type you may reduce the effort required to wield it by one step but suffer a −2 penalty to hit with that weapon. This allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size, use a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed as a light weapon.
Normal: Weapons 1 size category larger increase the effort required to wield them by one step: light becoming one-handed, one-handed becoming two-handed, and twohanded becoming un-wieldable. Two-handed weapons may not be used one-handed. Using a one-handed weapon in your off hand results in a −2 penalty to all of your attacks (in addition to other off-hand penalties that may apply).
Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size. You maytake this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different type of weapon.
Example: Rogar the human fighter takes Lighten Weapon and chooses greatsword. He can now use a Medium greatsword in one hand with a −2 penalty to hit, gaining 1 x Strength bonus to damage. He can also wield a Large greatsword in two hands with a −2 penalty to hit (In addition to normal penalties for wielding wrong sized weapon) and adding 1.5 x Strength bonus to damage.
OMG, monkey grip was one of my main gripes with 3.5...
Increasing weapon size gives something like 3.5 average damage increase possibly less depending on the weapon. For -2 hit that makes this feat weaker than several other standard damage related feats. 4.5 damage for greataxe makes it a tiny bit better if one handed but 20 x3 crtit range is sub optimal to begin with except at low low damage bonuses
Monkey Grip was a trap feat. It is really awesome until you do the math.
Monkey Grip was a trap feat. It is really awesome until you do the math.
Weilding two two-handed weapons one-handed was just representative of the crazy explosion of nonsense that plagued 3.5. The explosion of ape-men wildshaped druids wearing +5 armor and monkey-gripping dual greatswords just made me shake my head....
I put that in the same category as the rogues polymorphed into bizarre creatures and getting 12 sneak attacks in one round...
I am very worried about PF succumbing to the same fate. Double barrel shotguns are not a good sign. (Although I'm not sure if those are Paizo content).
Maybe it's because I grew up playing a lot of Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy (and currently Dark Souls), but I don't see an inherent problem with allowing Lighten Weapon. Monkey Grip does get a bit silly so to be honest, I probably wouldn't use it or I'd change it to be similar to the Titan Mauler's Jotungrip.
Giant's Grip
Prerequisite: Str 15, BAB +1
Benefit: This feat grants the ability to wield a two handed weapon that is one size too large for your race as if it were one size smaller, at a -2 penalty to hit. Because of the incredible weight, attacking with such an oversized weapon leaves you more open to attack, giving you a -2 to your AC
Not too sure on the penalty admittedly, so I did add the AC one there.
Monkey grip leads to ridiculous two weapon fighting combos. Tell them no.
Id be more worried about vital strike then about two weapon fighting.
I am sure there are a plethora of problems that come up but it is easier to think that someone who uses a huge weapon one handed also hits a vital area of the anatomy as opposed to dual wielding greatswords as far as believability goes.
No one cares if twf has access to monkey grip because they will not hit anything. On top of that twf is a feat trap tree. You deal less damage for more feats than the 2handed combatant. Not only is twf not feat cost effective but it costs more gold because you're going to have two weapons. Also vital strike is sort of a waste of a feat if you're not charge focused.
No one cares if twf has access to monkey grip because they will not hit anything. On top of that twf is a feat trap tree. You deal less damage for more feats than the 2handed combatant. Not only is twf not feat cost effective but it costs more gold because you're going to have two weapons. Also vital strike is sort of a waste of a feat if you're not charge focused.
It was my understanding that you cant use vital strike on a charge
No one cares if twf has access to monkey grip because they will not hit anything. On top of that twf is a feat trap tree. You deal less damage for more feats than the 2handed combatant. Not only is twf not feat cost effective but it costs more gold because you're going to have two weapons. Also vital strike is sort of a waste of a feat if you're not charge focused.It was my understanding that you cant use vital strike on a charge
Yup
Q: Can you charge and use Vital Strike?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Charge is a special full-round action (excluding partial charge). You cannot currently combine a charge and vital strike.
Personally I don't see an issue in allowing it on the charge. The wording in Vital Strike is very murky.
I'm not impressed with jason quotes. If it's not in black it's just another interpretation. I still wouldn't take vital strike even so because charging is rare.
I'm not impressed with jason quotes. If it's not in black it's just another interpretation. I still wouldn't take vital strike even so because charging is rare.
Vital Strike is a standard action, that was clarified. You can't take a full round action (charge) and a standard action (vital strike) at the same time. Even if you could get them both on the same turn (assuming this is possible), the bonuses from a charge wouldn`t apply to the vital strike as they were taken in succession, not on the same action. Unless you wanna get into crazy LanceChargeVitalStrike debauchery, leave it at that.
I'm not impressed with jason quotes. If it's not in black it's just another interpretation. I still wouldn't take vital strike even so because charging is rare.
That may be, but it is the interpretation of the Lead Designer, so at least for me it holds weight. That said, I agree with you and I see no issue with charging and Vital Strike and would allow it.
Back to the topic, Vital Strike may be an issue later in the road for two handing such a large weapon. For both a Greatsword and Greataxe, it puts them at 3d6 damage. So with Vital Strike and beyond, suddenly it's like I'm playing Warhammer 40k again ;). Perhaps the 'Monkey Grip' feat could have a greater starting penalty that, due to BAB or greater strength, goes away with time? I'd rather not add more to the feat chain.
I have a friend that made a character that, at 3rd level, could do 3d8 + 15 damage in melee. I can't remember all the feats and splat books he used, but I remember Monkey Grip was one thing and so was something from Races of Stone. It wasn't anything he ever intended to play; only something he did to see how cheesy and broken he could make a character in the latter days of 3.5.
Goliaths from Races of stone could used weapons as large creatures. So they could use a large size greatsword and then use monkey grip to swing it one handed. I never minded monkey grip, it was the I wield two great swords notion that I could not wrap my mind around.
I'm not impressed with jason quotes. If it's not in black it's just another interpretation. I still wouldn't take vital strike even so because charging is rare.Vital Strike is a standard action, that was clarified. You can't take a full round action (charge) and a standard action (vital strike) at the same time. Even if you could get them both on the same turn (assuming this is possible), the bonuses from a charge wouldn`t apply to the vital strike as they were taken in succession, not on the same action. Unless you wanna get into crazy LanceChargeVitalStrike debauchery, leave it at that.
You're right the feat itself has been clarified by the waving of a hand saying that an attack action is a standard action. The feat chain itself is a waste of time if it doesn't work with charge attacks. No one cares if it allows cookie cutter characters to be created. If a DM is allowing such a character I would just find a new DM.
Monkey Grip was a trap feat. It is really awesome until you do the math.Weilding two two-handed weapons one-handed was just representative of the crazy explosion of nonsense that plagued 3.5. The explosion of ape-men wildshaped druids wearing +5 armor and monkey-gripping dual greatswords just made me shake my head....
I put that in the same category as the rogues polymorphed into bizarre creatures and getting 12 sneak attacks in one round...
I am very worried about PF succumbing to the same fate. Double barrel shotguns are not a good sign. (Although I'm not sure if those are Paizo content).
*sigh*
In 3.5, you couldn't use Monkey Grip to wield two two-handed weapons. First off, Monkey Grip didn't work in your off-hand (in less you were also using your on-hand to two-hand a weapon). Secondly, Monkey Grip allowed you to wield weapons one size category larger than you with the same effort a correctly sized creature could wield it. So a medium character with Monkey Grip could wield a large sized longsword one-handed, but still couldn't wield a medium sized greatsword one-handed.
*sigh*
In 3.5, you couldn't use Monkey Grip to wield two two-handed weapons. First off, Monkey Grip didn't work in your off-hand (in less you were also using your on-hand to two-hand a weapon). Secondly, Monkey Grip allowed you to wield weapons one size category larger than you with the same effort a correctly sized creature could wield it. So a medium character with Monkey Grip could wield a large sized longsword one-handed, but still couldn't wield a medium sized greatsword one-handed.
*sigh*
and that's why the druids wildshaped into large ape men.
Yes, there is that too. I am personally Afraid he wants to start dual-wielding Large Greataxes.
If that bothers you, then don't allow it. If you are worried about numbers, consider this.
For dual-wielding, he's taking a -2 penalty to all attacks no matter what. For not having a light weapon off-hand, he's taking an extra -2 penalty. For Monkey Grip/Lighten Weapon, an extra -2. Jotungrip is also -2, and if he's somehow stacking their effects, they all apply. That is a whopping -8 penalty to hit for all attacks that he took 2 feats and a class ability to do.
If he thinks this is giving him a big damage advantage, remind him that even though the weapons are big, since they are being used one-handed, his strength bonus is only x1 for his primary hand and half for his off-hand. More feats are needed to deal with that. Power Attack is also treating those big weapons as if they were normal one-handed weapons, too, and is giving him an even worse bonus to hit.
If he still wants to do it after all of that statistical punishment, he's not a powergamer, he's in it for the aesthetics.
*sigh*
In 3.5, you couldn't use Monkey Grip to wield two two-handed weapons. First off, Monkey Grip didn't work in your off-hand (in less you were also using your on-hand to two-hand a weapon). Secondly, Monkey Grip allowed you to wield weapons one size category larger than you with the same effort a correctly sized creature could wield it. So a medium character with Monkey Grip could wield a large sized longsword one-handed, but still couldn't wield a medium sized greatsword one-handed.*sigh*
and that's why the druids wildshaped into large ape men.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. If you polymorphed into a large roughly humanoid shape, then you could wield two medium two-handed weapon as two one-handed weapons without monkey grip. Monkey grip did nothing to help you wield smaller sized objects. In large form and having monkey grip, you still couldn't wield large two-handed weapons in one hand because monkey grip didn't do anything to help wield weapons your size. Now if you were large and have monkey grip, it would you allow you to wield huge one-handed weapons, but again we are not talking about one-handed weapons are we?
Frankly, most people's problems with monkey grip in 3.5 was because they didn't understand how the feat worked. Yes if you allow it to work in a way it was never suppose to work, then sure you'll run into messed up situations.
Monkey grip still doesn't allow you to wield two handed weapons in one hand. That's a titan mauler feature. Monkey grip lets you use One-handed weapons one size up.