Spells
The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not
legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased,
or learned in any form by PCs playing Pathfinder Society
scenarios: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate.
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario
that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when
the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts
bless on the party and bless is still active when the
scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of
the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous
or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create
undead, or fabricate.
I see nothing here that prevents you from raising undead just be careful how you do it and balance it with good acts.
Heck create undead is even called in in the list of spells that end after a scenario.
couple of points
1.As far as i know only spell with the [evil] descriptor are such and can shift alignment not sure if animate is one or not.
2.Barring a massivly evil act such as mass murder no single act should move you all the way to evil and get the character barred.
3.To keep your army up have your Onyx gems ready to go and don't be picky about what you raise early on and upgrade when needed. It's expensive but it'll work.
4.Like I said earlier just focus on doing good for goods sake whenever you can.
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Many/most of the spells/etc available to Necromancing character builds are legal for PFS. While they might be considered evil from an official, designer's, perspective, it would be bad form to shift a character's alignment simply for using abilities/resources that are, by PFS rule, legal.
The issue is more one of intent, which is extremely difficult to adjudicate in a one-shot environment. The only time you might encounter issues with all things necromantic, is when there is a goody-goody paladin or a cleric of some anti-undead deity. In those cases, don't flaunt your necromancy in their face and hope they do the same in return.
Of course, as a GM, I would expect NPC's/commonfolk to have a less than acceptable response to you if you have a zombie in tow. But that can take many courses from extreme fear (run away) to torches/pitchforks.
The key is not to act like a jerk at the table and be understanding that most people (in game) will view open necromantic practices as evil.
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I would be more than willing to have a necromancer at my table. In fact, I would welcome it, as long as it is well roleplayed (IE, not going to go Chaotic Stupid, not trying to set off the paladin, etc). Run it, have fun, if people don't like it....oh well. You'll eventually find a group that does. Most PFS players in my experience just want to get the job done and have some fun along the way. If you contribute to the group and don't try to cause drama, you should be fine!
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As for goody-goodies and other players not liking it, perhaps I could give them a brief synopsis of why what I'm doing is *not* evil, and PFS legal. Beyond that, if they attack my guys or bully me for it, it would be they who are the jerks and violating the no PvP rule right? How would I handle that situation if the GM doesn't handle it right?And, what about a GM who shifts your alignment toward evil for doing something perfectly legal, be it using a so-called [evil] spell or for completing a faction mission that has been presented as a goal by the developers? What do you do when this action is taken against you unfairly?
PvP is strictly forbidden in Pathfinder Society. Where exactly the line is drawn differs from GM to GM, but it is quite clear that one player attacking another or destroying their minions counts as PvP.
As for the alignment shift issue....ye gods, if I were to shift players to evil for usage of "Evil" spells, I would have already wiped out several parties for the usage of "Infernal Healing". Try it, you should be fine. I can't speak for all GM's, but I would *love* any player who has spent that much time on backstory. Even if the other players don't know all of it, it will shine through and make the game that much more enjoyable for everyone (especially the GM!).
Yeah on evil spells remember intent is just as important as the act if you casting an evil spell to kill something saves hundreds that should definatly factor in. Now using it to kill bob the farmer only makes it more evil.
Check the Organized Play Guide to see who your venture captian is and then you can PM them to find out where the Local events near you are and you can go and meet some of the GMs
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Silver crusade could be fun, with your character's altruism showing through. But honestly, best bet seems Osiron. You want to know how to reach your mom, right? Well, there was this old necromancer....get us his book, and we'll copy and translate it for you. Osiron wants knowledge, and it seems like your character needs it. Plus...Osiron has few issues with undead.
setzer,
While evil characters are not allowed in general in PFS play, "white" necromancers or necro-type characters are. After all, there is an archetype for the cleric, the Undead Lord, that is perfectly legal for play.
On a side note, I have never understood why creating the most basic undead, zombies and skeletons, is considered evil. They are mindless and soulless creatures and do not require the spirit of the dead person being pulled back into the body to animate it.
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Welcome to the wonderful world of necromancy.
My most played character (Wizard/Necromancer) has had a few run-ins with holy types and his penchant for animating dead, summoning devils and such. It would be poor form to have negative repercussions to doing such things seeing as the spells themselves are legal in PFS.
However, it all depends on how you play it. Personally I have a little spiel prepared for just such occasions. Essentially, RP your way around the issue. I usually ask at the start of the adventure, IC, if any of the other members have issues with raising the dead and such.
Usually it goes something like this:
Paladin/Cleric/Lawful Stoopid: I completely object to your doing so and will rightly banish/exhume/smite any such wrongdoings! (read, will rebuke your undead)
Me: Ah, but it is for the greater good. I will swear on the honour of the Hellknights that these creatures will only be used to accomplish our mission, and banished henceforth. You may even do the honour yourself, if you please.
Paladin/Cleric/Lawful Stoopid: I get to smash them? K. Carry on.
Change flavour as required. ^^
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Being Lawful Stoopid is just as distasteful as being Chaotic "I can do whatever I want".
This issue exists because of a very odd rule for PFS. Per the designers, using spells with the [evil] descriptor is evil. Period. However, we have decided to allow those spells for PFS despite making evil alignments illegal. It creates a conflict within the game-play where you can essentially pretend to be evil, without actually being evil. That's just weird.
But, I like the options open to players by having evil spells. The important part to recognize is not what it says on your character sheet, but how does the campaign world react to your character. You can be whatever alignment you want, but if you walk around with a zombie minion, or routinely animate the skeletons of the fallen, it is reasonable to expect players/NPC's/commonfolk to look upon you with, at least, suspicion if not open disgust.
It's just a point of perception. A LG zealot pally can be just as annoying, but they are typically more tolerated. Their actions are more easily perceived as for the greater good. In game terms, that should not give them the right to impose their morality on other characters, but it does afford them more acceptance in social situations. The necromancer is a playable build. The player just needs to be aware of his/her surroundings.
I have said and will continue to say, players who run characters that would be considered fringe or incorporate rules that some measure of unclarity, have to be willing to accept GM/table variation that will, sometimes, restrict/nerf their character.
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Osirion is the easiest fit, though I have to agree Silver Crusade could be fun if it can be managed.
While you can't use the mechanics in PFS, the White Necromancer class from Kobold Quarterly #19(available on the store here in pdf form) may provide some useful flavor for your character's philosophy, particularly combined with with any possible Osirioni roots.
Shame the Juju Oracle isn't PFS-legal. That would solve a lot of your issues right out of the box.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Hi -- just caught your 'poor Necromancer' post, read down the thread a bit. Anyhow, I wondered if you've ever read "Sabriel" by Garth Nix: the main character is a good, even heroic, Necromancer. She puts down undead critters, fights evil Necromancers, etc.
As long as the GM running for you isn't a total antiNecromancer Nazi, I can't imagine you should have too much trouble running a good-aligned one. Check out Sabriel if you haven't read it: you may find some good supporting arguments in it.
Hope it helps.
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Here is my take in Necromancy
It is allowed - but as player you have to be aware that some actions you do can have consequences. In some adventures it will take you at a disadvantage.
I'm just citing a passage from 'Lands of the Linnorm Kings' - p.45
'Far less common are necromantic spells, unless used as divinations -- those who meddle with the dead are often viewed as criminals at best'
If you adventure in the Land of the Linnorm Kings (and there have been a few scenarios in season 2) and you openly walk around with undeads in your tow you cause me as GM an issue:
a) Do I just ignore the background of the Paizo books to ensure a Necromancer isn't feeling targeted?
b) Do I add some modifiers to Diplomacy or other skill checks on the fly - which I need to decide on the spot what they should be and therefore I will add non-written modifiers to the scenario in disfavour of the Necromancer.
These issues are not necessarily a game breaker. But the GM and the player need to be able to work together on this and trust each other that both the player isn't trying to take advantage and the the GM is trying to adjucate fairly. As long as this is the case you can have a very rewarding experience.
So be aware that issues exist. A Necromancer can easily force the GM out of the comfortzone of the written scenario and forces him to adjucate on the spot.
This can be fun - but it also can end in disaster.
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I was considering making my next PFS character a necromancer so this does interest me. Looking at the latest PFS Guide I find these relevant quotes:
PFS Guide v4.1 page 8:
Cooperate: The Society places no moral obligations upon its members, so agents span all races, creeds, and motivations. At any given time, a Pathfinder lodge might house a fiend-summoning Chelaxian, a Silver Crusade paladin, an antiquities-obsessed Osirian necromancer, a watchdog Shadow Lodge member, and a friendly Taldan raconteur.
So, necormancer are obviously not outright banned from PFS play; so then it comes down to whether your character is considered Evil.
PFS Guide v4.1 page 27:
Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment
[...]
The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences.
[...]
If infractions continue in the course of the scenario or sanctioned module, an alignment change may be in order.
[...]
Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort; there is more than one way to play a given alignment.
If a character has become wantonly evil as defined above, the GM should escalate the report to the convention coordinator, or the local venture-captain or venture-lieutenant. If they agree with the GM, then the character is deemed wantonly evil and considered removed from the campaign. Again, these measures should be taken as a very last resort.
So, even if a GM believes your character is acting evil by casting certain spells, he should inform you and only if you persist should he consider an alignment change. And if that change is to be Evil, the GM should escalate the issue to the Venture Captain (if not you could appeal I guess).
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That's not what the OP is about in fact he's the exact opposite. He's the latest in a long line of posters who want to advocate for the social acceptability of walking into town with shambling undead and cram it down every GM's throat.
That is not at all the impression I got from the OP, it just sounds like he wants a necromancer who maybe animates the corpses of fallen foes to fight other foes and not immediately be labelled Evil and thus lose his character.
Walking into town with undead should have consequences, just like those druids who walk into town with animal companion Velociraptors, Crocodiles, Tigers and the like should have consequences. That shouldn't mean druids or necromancers aren't viable PFS characters.
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That's not what the OP is about in fact he's the exact opposite. He's the latest in a long line of posters who want to advocate for the social acceptability of walking into town with shambling undead and cram it down every GM's throat.
Like DigitalMage said, that's not what I'm seeing here.
Attributing motives is bad form. Not liking a concept is no call to threadcrap.
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Setzer9999, you've picked a real difficult concept to RP at a PFS table. Assuming you have your undead following you will make everyone's characters stand offish to yours at the very least. Have you ever smelled rotten meat? It doesn't make people (and animals) want to help the party, it makes them want to vomit and run away. That is just the smell they would react to, not to your character.
Even if they did nothing overt (like PvP) your character would be an outcast in any social environment.
Now assume you don't have your undead with you. Your character might still be "weird" to talk to with a reputation like that. Remember every corpse and skeleton was once a living person who probably had at least one loved one. How would your character react to someone who had animated his mother had her walk to the cemetary and dig her own grave, rather than carry her. (No evil intent, just a necromancer with a profession mortitian.) And that doesn't even consider that the smell might linger on you.
You seem to be a consideate player. You've come up with a very interesting indepth concept. Your working thru possible roadblocks and asking for help overcoming them. +1 to you for what you've done.
I would welcome you and your character at any of my tables. But I don't think your character will be developing any strong long term relationships. I find those are most rewarding in gaming and GMing. I wouldn't want the reaction of characters to your character to reflect on other people's reaction to you.
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That's not what the OP is about in fact he's the exact opposite. He's the latest in a long line of posters who want to advocate for the social acceptability of walking into town with shambling undead and cram it down every GM's throat.
I'm not seeing this from the OPs perspective. I do see quite an interesting story that is perfectly valid in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Setzer, just to give you a few tips about animate dead in PFSOP:
- The spell animate dead expires at the end of every scenario. Therefore it can be very expensive to maintain a consistent skeletal "companion" throughout the levels. When the opportunity presents itself going ahead and animating something can work really well. My wife has an negative channel cleric in PFSOP and she has used the spell to great effect before.
- You probably should look into gentle repose, disguise other, and some other "vanity" spells to mask your undead creations and/or servitors.
- I don't know what mechanical class you were thinking but there is an undead lord cleric archetype that might work. To continue on the aspect of a "white" necromancer there are a few gods which would work.
- Pharasma, despite having the death domain, would be a poor choice, as she despises undead. Since you cannot combine Separatist archetype and Undead Lord it would be a difficult concept to work with.
- Fandarra would be a good choice. She has the death domain, but is a N god. She is similar to Erastil but for more barbaric / tribal settings. She isn't evil and condones undead, but does value companions and cities.
- Hanspur could work, although he really isn't a "god of undeath." But he has access to the death domain so it could work. Not sure how you'd thematically fit it in with your concept.
- A white necromancer (wizard) could work as well. Either the base necromancer or the life school replacement for necromancy.
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I believe that the Juju mystery for Oracles is a non-Evil undead user.
Also you could reflavor the Bones mystery by having the "Evil-like" revelations appear to be non-conscious/outside actions that still have the same mechanics but are not the results of a conscious choice by the character.
For example, you (the player) decide to use the Raise the dead revelation and tell the GM what your summoned undead does while your character is genuinely shocked that such a horrid creature has appeared to fight on his behalf. In fact, the shock is such that he loses a standard action ;-)
I get that some GMs might view this as a way to benefit from the powers without "paying the price" (ie, being Evil), but I see it as being quite true to the concept of Oracles as conduits of higher powers. All the more so as the Bones mystery and its revelations do not impose any alignment restriction.
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Just be careful and don't go with a triple multiclass. That gets a bit hairy considering the normal retirement cap is lvl 12. Undead Lord cleric can be a *load* of fun. Anyways, I think I'll stop bombarding you with ideas and actually let you design the bugger. Let us know how it goes when you get to run him!
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Just a quick side note.
While necromancers are legal, the magic that animates undead ends at the end of a game session regardless of the duration of the spell. So running around with a troup of zombie soldiers is going to be expensive.
Also, many PFS scenarios take place in cities where undead servants shuffling around might not be welcome. I suspect most GMs hand-wave this the way they hand wave 900 lbs bears or eidolons wandering through towns but it is a possible issue.
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Just a quick side note.
While necromancers are legal, the magic that animates undead ends at the end of a game session regardless of the duration of the spell. So running around with a troup of zombie soldiers is going to be expensive.
Also, many PFS scenarios take place in cities where undead servants shuffling around might not be welcome. I suspect most GMs hand-wave this the way they hand wave 900 lbs bears or eidolons wandering through towns but it is a possible issue.
Which is why I vote Undead Lord Cleric as the best necromancer for PFS. Plus, coupled with the feat that makes you heal off neg energy, and you become *the* best answer against NPC clerics that channel neg.
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For PFS, I would Suggest this Feat, from Ultimate magic:
Skeleton Summoner
The walking dead respond to your call.
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (necromancy), ability to cast summon monster.
Benefit: Add “human skeleton” to the list of creatures you can summon with summon monster I and “human skeletal champion” to the list of creatures you can summon with summon monster III.
Once per day, when you cast summon monster, you may summon a skeletal version of one of the creatures on that spell's summoning list (apply the skeleton template to that creature to create this monster).
This lets you "summon" undead, Rather than Raising them. Works as the Summon Monster spells, So it doesn't require costly reagents, and has a short duration, So no need to dispatch them before you head into town. I think Flavor-wise, it works great. You are Summoning a Spirit of your ancestor to help you with your struggle.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Simply having SotG should be enough. ISWG lists Necril as being the language of the dead spoken by ghouls and members of the Whispering way. However, none of the bestiaries have any creature that knows the language. To be honest, I never even heard of it until you brought it up.
And since it is a language in the ISWG there shouldn't be anything stopping you from learning it, unless they denied it in the Additional Resources.
Simply having SotG should be enough. ISWG lists Necril as being the language of the dead spoken by ghouls and members of the Whispering way. However, none of the bestiaries have any creature that knows the language. To be honest, I never even heard of it until you brought it up.
And since it is a language in the ISWG there shouldn't be anything stopping you from learning it, unless they denied it in the Additional Resources.
Thanks! Whaddya know, it is in the additional resources, I just missed that it was in ISWG under "all languages". Even if SotG should be good enough, this guy is going to be putting points into Linguist anyway, (and is a gnome with Gift of Tongues) so I'll have him learn Necril anyway just for flavor if not to mitigate the risk of a particular GM thinking its needed.
This leads me to my next question. If a language-dependent effect is used, do you have to specify that you are speaking a particular language before you use it? So, say, a monster only knows "Gnoll", and you happen to know Gnoll and want to cast a language-dependent ability on it. Do you declare before the ability that you are speaking Gnoll when you do it? Or does simply knowing the language cover this base?
If there are multiple creatures that know different languages, you would only be able to affect one's that share the same language with one casting at a time? Or again, does simply knowing the language constitute effectiveness of your spell?
Being language-dependent means that (a) you must use a language the target(s) understand, so (b) yes, only those prospective targets which share the language you're using can be affected by a single casting. Knowing multiple languages doesn't let you speak in multiple languages at the same time. Though you might be able to get away with it if you polymorph into a gibbering mouther before casting, if your GM is flexible enough! :)
Spells
The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not
legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased,
or learned in any form by PCs playing Pathfinder Society
scenarios: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate.
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario
that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when
the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts
bless on the party and bless is still active when the
scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of
the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous
or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create
undead, or fabricate.I see nothing here that prevents you from raising undead just be careful how you do it and balance it with good acts.
Heck create undead is even called in in the list of spells that end after a scenario.
Well, I think that necromancers can definitely be good-aligned. Simply put, they can raise the undead for things such as public works or clearing out dungeons that are a threat to innocents. Put a mask on the faces of the cadaverous undead so that relatives cannot complain, and you can easily have a good-aligned necromancer.
Just my personal opinion.|
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Spells
The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not
legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased,
or learned in any form by PCs playing Pathfinder Society
scenarios: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate.
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario
that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when
the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts
bless on the party and bless is still active when the
scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of
the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous
or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create
undead, or fabricate.I see nothing here that prevents you from raising undead just be careful how you do it and balance it with good acts.
Heck create undead is even called in in the list of spells that end after a scenario.
Well, I think that necromancers can definitely be good-aligned. Simply put, they can raise the undead for things such as public works or clearing out dungeons that are a threat to innocents. Put a mask on the faces of the cadaverous undead so that relatives cannot complain, and you can easily have a good-aligned necromancer.
Just my personal opinion.
Well, you're certainly a good aligned necromancer, at least based on the age of this thread you just lifted up from the grave :P
In 2e, Animate Dead is no longer an evil spell, so casting it in PFS missions is just as fine as Summon Animal or Animate Construct. There's even options (some of them unlockable with achievement points) for undead companions, familiars, eidolon, or you could even play a skeleton if you wanted to make an undead necromancer.
That being said, the sort of permanent-but-expendable undead minions that the old Animate Dead spells created are not accessible. (It's now a ritual, but there's no access for it for pathfinder society), so the best you can do if you want a permanent undead companion is probably a summoner or a class with animal companion - or picking up the beastmaster archetype + undead companion.
Yeah, I think Necromancers make great BBEGs, but are somewhat lacking in a party.
