Ah, this post is about two weeks late. Got con'ed into playing this one up at Winter War and got a little dirt nap for my trouble.
I can top that. I got conned into playing up, died right away (no one's fault), got conned into keeping playing after a Raise Dead, then everyone in the party ended up getting hosed (so my PC got borked for a second time).
Not only did this turn me off playing up, but it turned me off playing at level 7+ altogether.
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Hogarth, it's you choice of course, but I don't think it's fair to marginalize an entire tier because you chose to play out of sub-tier.
Sorry if it sounds jerky, but I really don't have a lot of sympathy for players who choose to play up and then the character dies.
This particular scenario has very optimized creatures and is difficult enough for a group of level-appropriate PC's, let along those playing up. If it does nothing else, it reminds players that you need to be extremely careful before choosing to play beyond your level.
I like it a lot because there are options for role-playing, it has strong combat encounters with melee and spell-casting, and environmental challenges. There should be a place for most/all character types to shine.
Hogarth, it's you choice of course, but I don't think it's fair to marginalize an entire tier because you chose to play out of sub-tier.
What does "fairness" have to do with my personal preferences?
Rest assured that I'm going to continue to "unfairly" avoid high-level PFS scenarios in the future.
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Thanks for the heads up for this scenario, too bad there weren't more reviews saying the same thing. I found out about it from Hogarth actually.
Playing up... I like it. I usually play up where possible, otherwise the scenario isn't challenging. So far it's worked out. It really depends on your group composition and if you think your PC is powerful enough to play up. Ex. I wouldn't play up with my gnome bard.
As GM, I think it's only proper to warn a group if the scenario is deadly, by saying "I think it's a really really bad idea if you play up." At least, that's what I'd do, I can see TPKs a mile away, and really there's no point imo, it's not fun for anyone. Depends on the scenario but also group composition.
I also advise them when they should play up, I'd rather not have my players bored out of their minds. That's the purpose of the game, to have fun right?
I agree with Rubia, especially on #2, I don't know why writers give NPCs terrible tactics and spell selections. Watch, Quest for Perfection is going to kill my PC now, just because I said that. :)
I'm also looking forward to level 7+ play, I think it's the most exciting.
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I just played through my first two PFS scenarios (The Penumbral Accords and Echoes of the Overwatched) and we played up both times. The rules that our GM used for deciding to play up were fairly straightforward. We had four First Levels, one Third Level, and one Fifth Level. Our third level was a cleric and our fifth level was a monk. During Echoes, we switched our cleric out for a bard with some minor healing abilities. The rules that were used was that we took a consensus vote with only the level 1s deciding if they wanted to risk playing up or not.
Anyways, we played up both times and the scenarios went by pretty good. Sure, we had difficulties at times, but by working together, we overcame the scenarios, completed our faction missions, and survived the encounters (with more than a few unconscious blackout moments).
For the first time I played PFS ever, I have to admit that I had an extremely fun time. Thank you to Kristie and the rest of my Pathfinder Society crew over here in Central Florida. You guys make it all worthwhile.
Long story short I suppose it all depends on if your crew is willing to risk it and what your party composition is.
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Severed Ronin, glad to have you in the community. Welcome Aboard!
The low-tier scenarios tend to be a bit less deadly with respect to character level. Critical hits are usually the primary culprit for PC death at low levels and there isn't really much can be done about that.
However, the instance of one-hit kills and group-killing abilities increases significantly in mid/high tier games. In addition to straight damage, there is save-or-suck magic.
I would caution you from being too cavalier about playing up. Doing it low levels is somewhat successful and can lead to a false sense of ability. Then when you get into higher level scenarios, you can get punished fairly quickly for having developed that impression.
I would caution you from being too cavalier about playing up. Doing it low levels is somewhat successful and can lead to a false sense of ability. Then when you get into higher level scenarios, you can get punished fairly quickly for having developed that impression.
I agree, and I would add that not only does it vary from level to level, but it also varies wildly from scenario to scenario within the same tier.
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I wasn't planning on doing it every time. I had plenty of run-ins with these two scenarios that caused me to rethink my decision, but I was just wanting to make a point that it all depends on who you're playing with and if you and them are willing to risk rolling a new character up in the tragic but all too common case that a character dies.
In no way am I trying to advocate to anyone that they should play up every time. I'm saying that you should weigh your options carefully if you do decide to follow through with it.
Thank you for the input and allowing me to clarify my opinions.
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Actually, if you played "Echoes of the Overwatched" at the high sub-tier with 1st-level PCs, I'm tremendously impressed.
It wasn't without its challenges, but we made it through. Biggest thing when playing a higher sub-tier is having that good party setup. A higher level healer and monk don't hurt either. ;)
Actually, I had a blast playing this scenario. Bob did a great job, and by rights he did ask us are we sure we wanted to play up?
Bob is a great DM, which made it even more fun. Of course, I had the level 5 hiding in the back :)
I'm still laughing about the step-up feat on a certain monster!
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Yeah, I usually let them decide, but in the case of 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, in a tier 1-5 scenario, I usually let the lowest player decide, as long as the others are ok with it as well.
Though, the time I ran Citadel of Fire for 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, they all wanted to play up. I tried to warn them... Poor samurai, never had a chance... And it would have gone better if the only healer hadn't been the 1st lvl witch...
Venture-Captain, Alabama—Birmingham
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We began this one a few weeks ago at APL 7.9ish, but after the fight with
We spent the rest of the adventure drinking heavily and
we did have a good time failing, but wouldn't want to repeat it again. It's going WAY at the bottom of my list to run.
We began this one a few weeks ago at APL 7.9ish, but after the fight with ** spoiler omitted ** with no cleric, we decided that Adril could come and get this one himself.
That's how it panned out when I played it, although we pressed on slightly further (to no avail).
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I ran this at my lodge event earlier this week at 5-6. A level 4 witch, and two optimized fighters, level 5 and 6. Kyra at level 7 rounded out the table.
It was literally a roll away from what would have been a TPK, as all of the PCs failed their save vs. confusion. Deadly scenario, to be sure.
While I enjoyed the module, my son did not and I must say that his criticisms were valid. From his viewpoint, he was playing an optimized fighter and he had less fun as every encounter progressively unfolded. He noted that as the scenario unfolded with the PCs moving underwater, the sceanrio progressively slowed down. Movement was vastly reduced because of swim speeds with the result, as he put it, that all tactical movement in the encounter eseentially ended. They were left with swimming a bit at a time into a deck compartment, initiate combat -- and then do the same thing over and over again -- all of which took far longer as a result of reduced slashing damage.
As he put it, it all slowed down so much, with choices and options becoming so narrowed, he just wanted to read a book and have the GM roll the to hit and damage dice and to let him know when it was over.
As I listened to his summary and analysis as to why he didn't like it, I must agree that he makes a good point.
Whatever the case, not only is it a damned difficult scenario but without something to provide freedom of movement, it can become a rather boring one, too, from the pserspective of a melee class.
It would have been worse had I [...]
That's one reason I have a particular dislike for this scenario; I hate the feeling that the GM is using kid gloves out of pity for the PCs, but (as you note) without a bit of pity that encounter is probably too much.
I also agree 100% with your son's criticisms.
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A level 4 witch, and two optimized fighters, level 5 and 6. Kyra at level 7 rounded out the table.
Um, did I read that correctly? A level 4 witch played in a tier 5-9 scenario?
It was literally a roll away from what would have been a TPK, as all of the PCs failed their save vs. confusion. Deadly scenario, to be sure.
Proper preparation has a lot to do with this scenario. Most players realize that water breathing will be required to do the delving into the ship, but freedom of movement is just as important, but less than half of the tables I have run (or heard about) have acquired that magic.
It's also not outside reasonability to consider the locale you are headed. A sunken ship that has been there for over 100 years. Stands to reason your most likely enemies are aquatic animals, the undead remains of seamen, and humanoid pirate-types looking for treasure.