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Sorcerer Level 1
Looking at these two cantrips (because that's how much of a beginner I am), I assume Acid Splash is subject to damage reduction, while Ray of Frost is subject to spell resistance? Or is one actually better than the other?
If these are my ONLY damage dealing options, which one's the better pick, or would really rather have both?
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Neither is subject to damage reduction. Ray of frost is subject to spell resistance while Acid Splash is not. They are both subject to energy resistance.
If you are looking for damage options as a level one sorcerer get a crossbow as both of those spell is of very limited use.Good to have but pretty much a waste of time.
If you have to have one of them (and you really don't want both of them unless you're doing something highly unusual with your character), you generally want Acid Splash. The only differences between them are that Ray of Frost counts as a ray, the damage types are different, and that Ray of Frost allows spell resistance.
If you're taking other character options that make you better with rays ("ray" can be chosen as a weapon for things like Weapon Focus), then you probably want to go with Ray of Frost. In general, though, acid is less resisted by monsters and has more marginal utility. (Stopping troll regeneration, for instance.) They're so similar, though, that you can take one over the other if you feel like it fits your concept better.
In general, 1st-level sorcerers tend to rely on crossbows rather than on either of the skills, though.
Acid Splash is in general better. Ray of Frost against something with vulnrability to cold (Fire subtype) with lots of sneak attack damage (arcane trickster) can be pretty devastating, but that's a pretty hyper specialized case.
Acid Splash is great for killing trolls.
If you have access to Adventurer's Armory, you can use a flask of acid as an alchemical power focus for acid splash to deal 1d3+1 acid damage. Ray of frost can similarly benefit from a flask of liquid ice, but the flask of acid is cheaper.
I also prefer acid splash because it can be used to kill trolls.
Remember kids, don't get trolled by your GM. always have Acid Splash.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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My Acid Splash guide and rating.
My Ray of Frost guide and rating
I would choose Acid Splash over Ray of Frost. It has more uses and you don't have to worry about saves or spell resistance. It also stops regeneration. Ray of frost is good for chilling drinks and making people feel cold.
Yeah something like a magus would be my only reason for Ray of Frost since I can spell strike with it and not with Acid Splash.
Take the "Rime" feat and ray of frost is better. Otherwise acid splash is generally better.
Neither is so good or so bad as to make it a real problem which one you choose, and I would probably go with the one that provides the most flavor for my character concept. If you have a flexible GM then ray of frost provides some great role-playing opportunities.
Acid splash, of course, is nice if you deal with trolls.
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Acid Splash is also good for drilling holes in things, cutting ropes from a distance, destroying evidence and etching your name into bar room tables. Ray of Frost can keep that meat from spoiling while you haul it home, freeze solid the potion the BBEG is about to drink and chill your sword so that your tongue sticks to it.
Take the "Rime" feat and ray of frost is better. Otherwise acid splash is generally better.
Neither is so good or so bad as to make it a real problem which one you choose, and I would probably go with the one that provides the most flavor for my character concept. If you have a flexible GM then ray of frost provides some great role-playing opportunities.
Acid splash, of course, is nice if you deal with trolls.
Does Rime Spell work with Ray of Frost? I've always read that as saying it would entangle for zero rounds, which I assumed was equivalent to not doing anything. Or is there another Rime feat that I can't find?
ray of frost benefits from the evoker's damage bonus.
Personally, I think a sorc would be slightly better served by acid splash. For the reasons above plus most undead seems to be immune to cold damage. We always seem to encounter lots of undead.
My halfling wiz didn't use xbow because my strengh was so low I couldn't carry one around. Plus the difference between a regular attack and a touch attack allowed me to hit lots more often. So I used disrupt undead and acid splash quite a lot for the first few levels.
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Actually there are several ways that both Acid Splash and Ray of Frost are superior to using a crossbow.
1) They are both touch spells whereas a crossbow needs an attack at full AC. I'd rather do 1d3 damage with a 55% chance of success than 1d8 with a 15% chance of success.
2) They don't need to be reloaded as a move action leaving a wizard or sorcerer free to be more mobile on a battlefield.
3) They both get round damage reduction.
Acid splash is the better choice in most instances it's useful in almost any case (even against golems) and as mentioned before it cooks trolls nicely.
My Acid Splash guide and rating.
My Ray of Frost guide and rating
I would choose Acid Splash over Ray of Frost. It has more uses and you don't have to worry about saves or spell resistance. It also stops regeneration. Ray of frost is good for chilling drinks and making people feel cold.
Actually, it lasts another round dealing damage too if have another acid flask.
My interpretation was always that the acid splash disappeared by the end of the next round? Ergo no double damage. But if it did stick around for another round, how much damage would it do if it was modified by sneak attack, bloodline powers, precision feats. etc? I assume it wouldn't be.
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Hey, did I do something illegal with either the PointBlankShot feat, or the Brutal Bloodline here?
=> Level 1, Acid Splash + Brutal(Abyssal) Bloodline + Point-Blank Shot
=> dexMod+1 range attack, 3+1d3 damage? (within 30 ft)
=> min damage 4, max damage 6?
On topic
Alternative: Ray of Frost with an Air Elemental or Djinni bloodline? That gives me a 1d3 attack option, and some 1d6+1 attack options (3+cha). Add in PointBlank Shot to add a 1 to damage.
I assume the Acid/Brutal combo is still better?
Off topic
So how does the acidSplash/Brutal combo compare to a small heavy crossbow that deals 1d8? The max damage isn't as high, but the average damage is guaranteed, and there's no full-round reload penalty. Also, you don't have to worry about equipment. And you can't lose your weapon, nor have to spend a move action to draw it out.
What are the weaknesses of relying on acid splash over a good bow? I can't take feats as quickly, so end up doing less damage? Am I unable to make use of feats like rapid shot?
My current, 15 pt halfing build has 6 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 7 int, 7 wis, 14 cha (after racial ability adjustments). The two level 1 spells I went with were Mage Armor (+4 AC, 1hr/lvl) and Shield (+4 AC, 1min/lvl), with the understanding that both stacked. And I think the Lore Seeker trait lets me use those at +1 caster level (twice the level 1 duration).
So my ranged attack is at +7, damage around 5, and AC from 16-24. On the downside, I have no CMD, and my only skill rank is linguistics (to speak abyssal). Is this a remarkable travesty of a sorcerer, or is he passable enough for the group to tolerate? Could I go further with him, or have I severely limited his chances of being useful at the higher levels?
Level 2
Rogue sneak attack(+1d6) seems like an obvious way to boost damage at level 2. I can put my one skill rank into stealth, and get more use out of the halfling swift as shadows alternate racial trait. I could also use Reduce Person instead of shield to get a +1 dexMod and +4 stealth when I need it.
Alternatively, I could keep my focus on high AC, acrobatics and bluffs (using bluff/feint to help with sneak attacks).
Flatfooted against ranged touch attacks means their AC can't be more than 10, right? So that sounds pretty nice.
Level 3
A second level in rogue will get me a +1 BAB, evasion, and a rogue combat trick. So I can take deadly aim(combat trick) to get +2 on all damage rolls, and precise shot. One of these can be a rogue combat trick, the other can be my level 3 feat.
1d3+4 damage w/out sneak attack?
While I'll be skilled enough to disable traps, I don't expect to be finding very many, so I might use a Rake rogue, or an acrobat, investigator rogue instead to switch out the trap-finding stuff.
Level 4
sneak damage+2d6. I realize that Ninja would be a better option than rogue, simply because of the Cha based ki-pool. But now I'm out of interesting ideas.
I could've use the magical knack trait to keep up the power of my sorcerer spells until now (I would've used that instead of lore seeker), but that ends here. Not the biggest loss, for what it was.
After that?
No clue. More Ninja? The ki abilities seem nice.
Actually there are several ways that both Acid Splash and Ray of Frost are superior to using a crossbow.
1) They are both touch spells whereas a crossbow needs an attack at full AC. I'd rather do 1d3 damage with a 55% chance of success than 1d8 with a 15% chance of success.
2) They don't need to be reloaded as a move action leaving a wizard or sorcerer free to be more mobile on a battlefield.
3) They both get round damage reduction.
Acid splash is the better choice in most instances it's useful in almost any case (even against golems) and as mentioned before it cooks trolls nicely.
All true. A chance at doing some damage is a fair trade for probably wasting a crossbow bolt. Or, hitting, then rolling 2 damage after all that effort.
Also, at low levels (any level, really), 1-3 damage may be all you need to finish off an injured enemy, letting your melee guy move on to the next one. Why burn a spell slot?
I remember playing a high level sorcerer who used it once to injure, but not kill a guy who pi$$ed him off. There's some psychological comfort in knowing you can at least do a little damage at will.
...What are the weaknesses of relying on acid splash over a good bow? I can't take feats as quickly, so end up doing less damage? Am I unable to make use of feats like rapid shot?...
Biggest is range. I am often not close enough to hit things with an acid splash, but I could take a shot with an xbow (but I'd probably miss).
Later, magic items. Once you find that +5 holy xbow of speed. It is probably better than acid splash. =) But by then you will usually have enough spells to spam.And yes, you can take feats for the xbow such as rapid reload, point blank shot, weapon focus, etc...
However, most sorcerers would rather take defensive or magic boosting feats. Since you will have lots of daily casting slots after a few levels, the xbow will be used less and less.
Hey, did I do something illegal with either the PointBlankShot feat, or the Brutal Bloodline here?
=> Level 1, Acid Splash + Brutal(Abyssal) Bloodline + Point-Blank Shot
=> dexMod+1 range attack, 3+1d3 damage? (within 30 ft)
=> min damage 4, max damage 6?
...
I won't swear to it, but I don't think you are supposed to get point blank shot with acid splash since it is not a ray.
Also ray of frost also kills brown mold.
I won't swear to it, but I don't think you are supposed to get point blank shot with acid splash since it is not a ray.
Point Blank Shot says nothing about rays; it adds +1 atk/dmg for any ranged weapon attack against a target within 30 ft. Acid splash benefits just as much from the feat as any ranged touch attack spell.
... Point Blank Shot says nothing about rays; it adds +1 atk/dmg for any ranged weapon attack against a target within 30 ft. Acid splash benefits just as much from the feat as any ranged touch attack spell.
I thought it didn't count as a "ranged weapon attack" unless it was a ray. But again, I may be remembering that incorrectly. I haven't looked it up in a long time.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I thought it didn't count as a "ranged weapon attack" unless it was a ray. But again, I may be remembering that incorrectly. I haven't looked it up in a long time.
This is correct, as far as I know. Spell attacks (even ones that require an attack roll) don't count as weapons, rays being the exception.
They talk about it a little bit in This FAQ entry
So in this case, Point Blank Shot would benefit ray of frost, but not acid splash.
I keep on coming across terms like 'orb of acid' or 'dart of acid,' and I realize that in every case the acid isn't being described as a ray, but as a physical projectile. Perhaps that's why both of my GMs, when asked about whether ranged weapon feats apply to acid splash, shrug and say 'Of course.'
Even if that's technically true, what's the argument for why non-ray spells shouldn't benefit from range feats? What's the big idea?
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Does Rime Spell work with Ray of Frost? I've always read that as saying it would entangle for zero rounds, which I assumed was equivalent to not doing anything. Or is there another Rime feat that I can't find?Take the "Rime" feat and ray of frost is better. Otherwise acid splash is generally better.
Neither is so good or so bad as to make it a real problem which one you choose, and I would probably go with the one that provides the most flavor for my character concept. If you have a flexible GM then ray of frost provides some great role-playing opportunities.
Acid splash, of course, is nice if you deal with trolls.
I'd like to second this question. How does taking the Rime feat benefit Ray of Frost at all?
If there is some rule/clarification I don't know of that allows it to entangle for even 1 round, that would be very worthwhile to me. Ray of Frost + Rime + Magical Lineage, even with SR, sounds very nice.
Ray of frost damage is increased by things like inspire courage, prayer and the like.
Ray of frost damage is increased by things like inspire courage, prayer and the like.
As far as I'm aware, so is Acid Splash's damage, as they are both ranged touch attacks. RoF is evocation though, so as another poster mentioned you can get Intense Spells to RoF, where AS, being conjuration, does not. Admixture focused school makes RoF a little more versatile as well, though it still has the arguable downfall of being subject to SR.
Things that increase weapon damage do not apply to acid splash because it is no weapon.
Rays, while being spells, are special in that they are treated as weapons as well. You can take weapon focus (ray) and weapon specialization (ray) and they count as weapons for feats and effects that increase weapon damage.
Acid splash has no such special ruling as far as I know.
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The Rime Spell Metamagic Feat does nothing for a Ray of Frost. The thing you want is the Rime-Blooded Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana - then your Ray of Frost potentially slows the target for a round... which, for an unlimited-use cantrip, is outstanding! :)
Awesome! Thanks ProfPotts, that's exactly what I needed to know!
Edit: Next question: Would Ray of Frost work with the Void-Touched arcana power? The power specifically says targets who fail their save, so I would be inclined to say no, but I have seen others on the boards claim it works with Magic Missle, which also has no save. Is there a consensus on this? Because an at will 1 round silence would definitely push Ray of Frost to the top for me.