Spell Perfection + Intensified Spell


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does the +5 increse on dice cap gets doubled? It's a set numerical bonus, and it comes from a feat so...? Because, you now, it doesn't seems intended to me.


I don't think that it is a set numeric bonus that is applied to the spell actually... at least I would not treat it as such.

a set numeric bonus is a bonus that grants a set number (+1, +4, +23, what have you) to some aspect of the spell, not a number of additional dice.


Well, it's add a set number (5) as a bonus to some aspect of the spell (damage dice cap). isn't it right?


Ah, but you must be able to employ that bonus. For example, a 12th level wizard doesn't get 5d6 added to his fireball spell, he gets 2d6 added, as he's only got a CL of 12. We normally think of intensify spell for the maximum benefit, which is 5 dice, but you still have to be in a position where you can use 5 extra dice, i.e. have the needed caster levels to extrapolate out 5 more dice of damage.


That is taken for granted. Under my assumption, an intesified perfected fireball would have a 20d6 damage cap, but if you are level 15 you will still deal only 15d6 damage.


my main point of disagreement is that I do not think Intensified spell adds any bonus at all.... Bonus is a game term, defined as "numerical values added to checks or statistical scores", the expanded damage cap from Intensified spell applies neither to a check nor to a statistical score.

Aside from that, Intensified Spell does not refer to the expanded damage dice by the term 'bonus' anyplace in the feat description.


Dekalinder wrote:
Does the +5 increse on dice cap gets doubled? It's a set numerical bonus,

I also don't see it as a bonus, so no.

-James


Dekalinder wrote:
That is taken for granted. Under my assumption, an intesified perfected fireball would have a 20d6 damage cap, but if you are level 15 you will still deal only 15d6 damage.

So you are saying that fourth level spell can do 20d6 damage then?

So what if I maximize that spell too...

Now it's a seventh level spell that does 120 damage?

And if I empower the spell, now it's a ninth level spell that does 180 damage?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
That is taken for granted. Under my assumption, an intesified perfected fireball would have a 20d6 damage cap, but if you are level 15 you will still deal only 15d6 damage.

So you are saying that fourth level spell can do 20d6 damage then?

So what if I maximize that spell too...

Now it's a seventh level spell that does 120 damage?

And if I empower the spell, now it's a ninth level spell that does 180 damage?

I was of the understanding that such a maximized empowered spell would do 120 damage + 10d6. Has this changed?


Malfus wrote:
I was of the understanding that such a maximized empowered spell would do 120 damage + 10d6. Has this changed?

Heck I don't know. I don't think the 20d6 sounds right. I'm just wondering.

Wouldn't whether it does 180 or 120+5d6 or 120+10d6 depend on what order you applied the feats?

Take your ordinary fireball... and intensify it. If you're level 20 then Dekalinder says it's a 20d6 fireball. Now you empower it. Now it's 1/2 again as many dice, so it's a 30d6 fireball. Now you maximize it, now it's a 180 damage fireball.

Works like a charm, right?


Unfortunately, no

Quote:

Maximize Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells have the maximum possible effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

Level Increase: +3 (a maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.)

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.


Well, there is a particular rule from pfsrd.

Quote:
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.

As intensified raises the limiting factor rather than adding damage by itself, I would say its part gets maximized. But I am no judge on the matter :P

EDIT:ninja'd like a boss


Oh, heck, I figured if Dekalinder could push this to 20d6 at fourth level I'd see how far I could push it...

I guess the developers better lock down that intensify ruling like they did the empowered maximized ruling.

;-)


You can add two of the same metamagic to one spell a Intensified x2 Spell thereby making Shocking Grasp level 3? Is that possible?


no


You can't stack the same metamagic feat mroe than once on the same spells. However, aside from the explicity stated interaction between Maximize and Empower, other metamagic feat stacks fully between them, so a standard intesified maximize fireball is 90 damage. Now the question is, how much damage it does if is also perfected?


Dekalinder wrote:
a standard intesified maximize fireball is 90 damage. Now the question is, how much damage it does if is also perfected?

It does 90 (if it's at CL 15) and takes a 4th level slot.

-James


Dekalinder wrote:
You can't stack the same metamagic feat mroe than once on the same spells. However, aside from the explicity stated interaction between Maximize and Empower, other metamagic feat stacks fully between them, so a standard intesified maximize fireball is 90 damage. Now the question is, how much damage it does if is also perfected?

Since neither Intensified Spell nor Maximize Spell provide a bonus that affects an aspect of the fireball spell, all Spell Perfection would do would be to lower the slot it takes to cast it.


cwslyclgh wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
You can't stack the same metamagic feat mroe than once on the same spells. However, aside from the explicity stated interaction between Maximize and Empower, other metamagic feat stacks fully between them, so a standard intesified maximize fireball is 90 damage. Now the question is, how much damage it does if is also perfected?
Since neither Intensified Spell nor Maximize Spell provide a bonus that affects an aspect of the fireball spell, all Spell Perfection would do would be to lower the slot it takes to cast it.

the SRD says,

Intensified Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.

Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat. An intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

It says increase maximum number of dice by 5 full stop. The part about caster levels is there so no one can claim that a 1st level caster's magic missile does 6d4+6 (adding 5 dice). As Intensifies spell meets both requirements (affect a spell with the set numerical value and it is a feat it should work). If paizo does not want this to work can we please get the part where it says a feat be changed to a non meta magic feat. That would close this nicely, if that is what paizo wants.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Harrythefish wrote:
It says increase maximum number of dice by 5 full stop. The part about caster levels is there so no one can claim that a 1st level caster's magic missile does 6d4+6 (adding 5 dice). As Intensifies spell meets both requirements (affect a spell with the set numerical value and it is a feat it should work). If paizo does not want this to work can we please get the part where it says a feat be changed to a non meta magic feat. That would close this nicely, if that is what paizo wants.

I don't read it quite the same. Intensify doesn't add in 5 dice, you calculate the damage dice as if the spell damage dice variable would go 5 caster levels higher.

Fireball: max of 15d6
Magic Missile: max of 7d4+7 (as you only get another MM everyone 2nd level).

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