You have a lot of players, not overepowered characters or munchkins. They're concentrating on defense.
You can throw lots more monsters at them, which will both challange them, give them a sense of accomplishment for wracking up a huge body count, without bringing in the threat of one crit or attack routine killing a player that a single, more powerful monster would bring.
18 is not a high AC at level 2.
Why does the paladin have d8 HD?
Why does the paladin have a shield bonus to AC if he uses a greatsword?
The attack bonuses don't seem all that high for martial characters with a small focus on offense.
What point buy/stat array/rolling method did you use?
With a party of 7 their APL is already 3; not even looking at their stat array. 10 goblins is only an EL of between 3 and 4- that isn't supposed to be difficult. That is more of a fun speed bump.
|
1. Look at their ability stats. If they are anywhere near 17,16,15,14,13,12 then you have a heroic group on your hands.
2. Count the number of players. If you have six players, then recalulate the average party level as +1. For example consider a group of six L2 players to be average party level 3 (APL+1).
3. Set all average encounters to 3 (APL+0)
4. Set all challenging encounters to 4 (APL+1)
5. Set all hard encounters to 5 (APL+2)
6. Set all epic encounters to 6 (APL+3)
See for details: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
Now if for any reason your players are walking around with epic ability scores or tons of magic items you can always bump your APL estimate to APL+2 as a baseline.
I figured this out the hard way, through trial and error, and only after experiencing times when the party was too tough.
In your specific case, I notice that you list armor classes primarily in your original post. Its possible that this is your primary concern. If so, your particular challenge may not be that as a gamemaster you cannot "hit" your players.
Chances are... by recalibrating your encounters you'll find the creatures have higher armor class and better to-hit bonuses, including higher base attacks. This should do the trick.
18 AC isn't that bad, but it probably implies each character has already found good armor. This is good for players, but bad for most low level foes - and this would be responsible for you not being able "to-hit".
Provided you haven't given out too much magic items, and provided their ability scores are reasonable... this might be only a small effort to increase the challenges without having to reduce anything about the characters (something players cannot stand).
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
Pax
Just remember that a balanced party is supposed to wipe the floor with a CR encounter if they have a point buy over 15 and even then a CR encounter is still fairly easy. With so many people your other issue is the action economy, your players have so many actions per round that half the players are able to just stand there and the encounters are still pushover.
General tips:
- For so many players, if the number of monsters does not equal at least 3/4th of the party then forget it, its going to be a slaughter fest
- If you use traps, make them part of an encounter do not just have a trap and then allow the party to heal, rest, etc. take your basic pit trap. A pit trap is of no real threat, you might fall down, you make take around 7 damage on average, and then you climb out, no big deal. Take that same pit trap and add some enemies that ambush when it goes off, now you have prone players, at the bottom of a pit, who have to not only stand up, but likely climb out. Climb speeds for most players are going to be 5-10ft which means the first guy out the hole is going to be in 3 rounds. That gives your Kobold rogues (did I mention your flatfooted while climbing) at least two rounds of sneak attack before anyone is within melee. Traps placed during an encounter are terrifying and if the party finds the trap and starts disarming it, start the ambush anyway since it takes minutes to disarm one.
- Do not count on DR. Your Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier and maybe Ranger are going to eat that for breakfast and then ask for more. After the buffs from the bard, you may as well make this non-existent.
- High AC will not save you. You have Four full BAB classes with a bard, the to-hit number is going to be low and is not a concern.
- Focus on mobility, tactics and environment. If your enemies are not mobile they will be dead in about two rounds. Getting full attacked is a big deal and leaves a nasty mark. Have a set of tactics for your enemies, and make your enemies dynamic. Having a bunch of the same enemy is boring, having several different kinds of enemies forces your PC's to make choice on who/what to attack first. The environment is important, say you are in a cavern dungeon crawl, how many of your players have darkvision? a light spell or torch will likely raise the light to dim which has 20% concealment which is a much bigger deal than a lot of people think. Are you in the forest or hills? There are maximum ranges for perception in those areas.
-Have many encounters per day, four is not going to cut it. Read this essay about encounter design. It helped me a lot and broke a lot of bad habits.
-Just get rid of random encounters and wandering monsters, it eats up gameplay time, doesn't really contribute to anything and are generally not threatening or fun. The one exception to wandering monsters is if your PC's like to let the casters recharge after they run out of spells, if they rest every time the wizard needs more fireballs then by all means wander away.
Oh wow, I am starting to ramble well those are all good points, hope they help.
Now about the lots of monsters. They recently fought a huge group of goblins, about 10 of them. And it was no problem. More of them? or buff their stats?
10 goblins? Thats a cartful. Need more power! *grunt argh argh*
Goblins aren't a threat unless they swarm their enemies. Thats at minimum a 2 to 1 ratio.
CHARRRRGE: it gives you a +2 to hit, which seems tobe a lot of your problem. Will it get the monster killed? SURE! But that's their job.
Swarms of arrows!
Archers don't have to shoot at the guy in front, and if you only have a 5/20 chance to hit, with 16 goblins thats still 4 hits per round.
Dragon and mook combos: Never put a single monster against a group that big. Either he will simply ROFLCOPTER your entire party or your party will kill him in one round.. its hard if not impossible to hit a median between the two.
7 PCs vs 10 goblins should be a walk in the park for even 15 point buy characters.
Depending on the tactics of course. A determined GM with a great sense of tactics can make 10 of just about any creature challenging if they really want to. But in general a "normal" party of 7 should have walked through 10 goblins without breathing hard.
If your PCs are more like a 20 or 25 point buy, then a 10 goblin encounter is likely to be more of an annoyance than a challenge.
As far as your characters' listed AC and attack bonuses, those don't seem to be all that high to me. Any typical second level fighter with heavy armor and shield is going to have a similar AC. Full BAB characters at level 2 with high fantasy stats should have around a +9 base attack bonus (+5 str, +1 feat, +1 MW weapon, +2 BAB).
So your characters don't seem overpowered to me. But you do have a lot of them, and a lot of them are melee heavy.
You might throw some ranged attacks using terrain at them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My advice:
1) Stop trying to kill their characters. Make things challenging, but your job is not to kill the characters off.
2) You basically have 2 parties. Construct the encounters taking that into account.
3) The game is designed so that the players survive. It's no fun if your characters die constantly. As long as they are having fun, that means you're doing your job right.
4) You can split the party if you need to. Consider running a few encounters with the party split up. You will need to work hard on pacing but you should be able to get the hang of it.
They didn't buy points. They all wanted to roll, then one guy rolled good and everyone used his basic array.
Stat generation is your choice, but using a system like this you are going to have to expect overpowered characters. It is the equivalent of giving rerolls equal to the number of players, and you have 7 players!
You can try fiddling with monster stats to compensate, maybe giving maximum hitpoints or the advanced simple template (with no extra XP, of course). However, you are in for a bumpy road. In the future, especially with such a large party, you might want to consider a standard rolling system, such as 4d6 or a 15 or 20 point-buy.
They didn't buy points. They all wanted to roll, then one guy rolled good and everyone used his basic array.Stat generation is your choice, but using a system like this you are going to have to expect overpowered characters. It is the equivalent of giving rerolls equal to the number of players, and you have 7 players!
You can try fiddling with monster stats to compensate, maybe giving maximum hitpoints or the advanced simple template (with no extra XP, of course). However, you are in for a bumpy road. In the future, especially with such a large party, you might want to consider a standard rolling system, such as 4d6 or a 15 or 20 point-buy.
Or have all 7 players roll 4d6 once and drop the lowest of the 7 rolls, then use the remaining 6 to get a communal array for everyone to use. Everyone gets to roll; everyone is evenly powered; statistics generally won't be obscene; everyone is (hopefully) happy.
They didn't buy points. They all wanted to roll, then one guy rolled good and everyone used his basic array.Stat generation is your choice, but using a system like this you are going to have to expect overpowered characters. It is the equivalent of giving rerolls equal to the number of players, and you have 7 players!
You can try fiddling with monster stats to compensate, maybe giving maximum hitpoints or the advanced simple template (with no extra XP, of course). However, you are in for a bumpy road. In the future, especially with such a large party, you might want to consider a standard rolling system, such as 4d6 or a 15 or 20 point-buy.
I agree on this.
We changed our stats back to a 18+1d4 point buy, because with 4d6 we were too powerfull. Its a big difference if there are more than 2 stats over 16. Also normally every player dices on his own, not just uses good stats someone else got.This is probably the main point of the problem.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can give them a challenge. Nets, touch attacks, rust monsters, poisoned arrows from snipers. Get inventive, but remember, don't be a dick.
I have had to challenge a party of 8 consistently, and I have found that applying the giant template twice to a monster of their average level tends to make for a life or death fight as long as the monster is thinking tactically and doesn't get flanked.
D-d-d-double template!
Well you could also add more special abilities and unusual elements to monsters instead of stacking templates.
As a GM, I usually run homebrew campaigns, and my starting characters are gimped much more than RAW. Weapons and armor are severely limited for starting out, with a 10 point buy system. Everyone has fun though, and every encounter is dangerous. It's one of those things where you and your players (friends in my case), have to sit down and discuss what you think is important and not important in your gameplay. It's OKAY to stray from the CRB now and again, if it increases your gameplay value. [And as a GM, I don't mind throwing in CR + 2 encounters. ]
I started doing this, because as a player, I found most AP's to be insanely easy.
In the end, it's whatever you find the most fun!
You can give them a challenge. Nets, touch attacks, rust monsters, poisoned arrows from snipers. Get inventive, but remember, don't be a dick.Rust Monster + dick...
One time I attacked a PC group with a rust monster a fairy sorcerer just hasted. It ate a suit of armor and a plus one sword before the monk could jump on it.
Rust monster (and other similar GM metagame tactics) imho is pretty much the definition of GM dickdom...
|
- Roleplaying alone can hit some challenge really.
- Did you count -2 AC on Barb's while raging?
- Flanking players, Aiding , Flat-footed, Surprise rounds,Terrain advantage, can all give u minor help in handling them. If you need to use it that is.
- Some NPCs are smart, they might try to rush on lower AC PCs.
It isn't a metagame tactic. Rust Monsters live in the world. NPCs have skills to tell them where. NPCs learn spells to control them so they can use them on their enemies. There isn't any metagame in it. It makes perfect sense from a simulationist stand point. If rust monsters are around, they are getting used.
Absolutely, totally and completely disagree in every conceivable manner.
Rust monsters are, and have always been, designed as a metagame tactic to attack players with armor and metal weapons. That's the sole reason they exist, and the sole reason GMs use them. Just as gelatinous cubes exist solely for PCs in dungeons to blunder into them. Just as gasbags exist solely to tease PCs into attacking the "Beholder" only to get nailed by the gas explosion...
Pure unadulterated metagame in every conceivable fashion.
Use them if you like. They don't exist in my worlds.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It isn't a metagame tactic. Rust Monsters live in the world. NPCs have skills to tell them where. NPCs learn spells to control them so they can use them on their enemies. There isn't any metagame in it. It makes perfect sense from a simulationist stand point. If rust monsters are around, they are getting used.
Absolutely, totally and completely disagree in every conceivable manner.
Rust monsters are, and have always been, designed as a metagame tactic to attack players with armor and metal weapons. That's the sole reason they exist, and the sole reason GMs use them. Just as gelatinous cubes exist solely for PCs in dungeons to blunder into them. Just as gasbags exist solely to tease PCs into attacking the "Beholder" only to get nailed by the gas explosion...
Pure unadulterated metagame in every conceivable fashion.
Use them if you like. They don't exist in my worlds.
Oh I think Rust Monsters should exist, and I don't consider them solely a metagaming or "GM is a dick" tactic. However-- my view on the existence of rust monsters is that they are the deliberate creation of a seriously-powerful mage (or demented druid, or ancient alchemist playing with strange mutagens) who got into creating/breeding magical pets and servants... Rust monsters being an example of a successful experiment at breeding something specifically to deal with all those metal-using warrior types. In short, you run into a rust monster when I'm running the game, it's probably not an accident-- either you're running around a dungeon/environment that's some ancient mage's lair (and he had originally had a few rust monsters around as guardian pets), or you're digging into some current mage's lair, and the rust monsters are a deliberate trap for unwelcome guests, set by the current occupant.
I say again-- not simply metagaming. But when I've used them, not random, not an accident-- there's someone who made that critter ('cause it isn't natural) and left it there. Likewise, gelatinous cubes-- they aren't there simply to hassle PCs who blunder into them-- they're specifically-bred "garbage disposal" pets (supposed to stay down in the cess-pit!) and/or labyrinth cleaners (of labyrinths that were built to be death-traps, *not* places to be lived in!). And gasbags... haven't used them much, but if/when I do, it *will* be because some magical animal breeder created them deliberately as a trap-- which is a warning in and of itself that Beholders are or were well-known in the area where someone has left a few gasbags lurking about.
I've used them-- but I also make sure they have good reasons to exist and be where the player-characters encounter them-- I don't ever have them pop up as GM fiat just to mess with the players without any in-game reason why they should be about.
You can give them a challenge. Nets, touch attacks, rust monsters, poisoned arrows from snipers. Get inventive, but remember, don't be a dick.Rust Monster + dick...
One time I attacked a PC group with a rust monster a fairy sorcerer just hasted. It ate a suit of armor and a plus one sword before the monk could jump on it.
Nom nom nom, try a rust lord. Then some nishruus for the spellcasters.
I disagree dragon, and I see cranewings post. Yep, if they are in the world, then for these creatures most pc groups are a giant buffet. Nishruus are predators for spellcasters and also like to chew on tasty magic items (oh noes we filled all our body slots and attracted the nishruus, aaaaaaah!).
For rust monsters, if you fight cults of rovagug, go into dungeons, or are near dwarven cities where they are a pest, you are in their world now. There are also regions rust lords can be found (love that monster).
Your characters are 2nd level, BUT
1. They have higher than average stats. (CL +0.5 or +1, depending on how high their stats are)
2. There are seven of them. (CL +2)
Basically, what you actually have is a 4th or 5th level party, so you have to design encounters accordingly for them to be challenging. Remember, the challenge ratings are actually supposed to frequently be above the party's level. Theoretically, a totally standard dungeon/day of adventuring for them should go something like this:
Encounter 1: CR 3-4 (Party level -1)
Encounter 2: CR 5-6 (Party Level)
Encounter 3: CR 5-6 (Party Level)
Encounter 4: CR 7-8 (Party Level +2 or +3 [or even higher when you want an especially tough "boss fight"])
Now, that said, the problem with this is that you have 2nd level characters fighting CR 7 monsters all the time, which will very likely kill some of them. So although this is what you would do according to standard CR design principles, you might find you need to adjust it slightly until they level up a bit. Once they are (individually) level 4 or so, you'll be able to more or less use the standard CR rules governing encounters for a level 6 or 7 party (because of the adjustments mentioned above).
The trouble is that the CR system breaks down a bit before characters are level 4 or so. Of course, the larger problem is that the entire Pathfinder game kind of breaks down before level 4 and after level 13 or so. I eventually just stopped running for parties below 4th and above 13th level altogether, and to be honest that should probably be more or less standard practice, but people are very attached to the traditional way of doing things.
That there was a problem in 3.5 with the first few character levels is evident in systems like Star Wars Saga and D&D 4th edition, both of which gave characters more power and hp out of the gate. Both systems have their flaws, but the point is that very low level characters in their current (as in 3.5) form clearly presented a problem to both teams of designers. The problem is that they are too fragile in one sense and capable of outputting too much damage, or getting their defenses too high, on the other, to work within a standard challenge curve. So at those levels you tend to get either overly easy, overly hard, or just super swingy battles, pretty much every time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can give them a challenge. Nets, touch attacks, rust monsters, poisoned arrows from snipers. Get inventive, but remember, don't be a dick.Rust Monster + dick...
One time I attacked a PC group with a rust monster a fairy sorcerer just hasted. It ate a suit of armor and a plus one sword before the monk could jump on it.
Nom nom nom, try a rust lord. Then some nishruus for the spellcasters.
I disagree dragon, and I see cranewings post. Yep, if they are in the world, then for these creatures most pc groups are a giant buffet. Nishruus are predators for spellcasters and also like to chew on tasty magic items (oh noes we filled all our body slots and attracted the nishruus, aaaaaaah!).
For rust monsters, if you fight cults of rovagug, go into dungeons, or are near dwarven cities where they are a pest, you are in their world now. There are also regions rust lords can be found (love that monster).
When monsters are clearly designed specifically to counter a metagame factor (such as "druids don't wear metal armor, neither do monks, let's let them get some spotlight time!") then they are metagame monsters. Some GMs and players like them. I find them to be utterly ridiculous.
So I don't put them in my games when I GM. Simple as that. Other GMs can utilize their wonderful metagame-ness all they like. I just have a major dislike of such obvious metagame stuff. It ruins MY verisimilitude, and as the GM I think it's best for my verisimilitude to be as high as possible. That's all.
Still, if I'm in a game and the GM throws a rust monster at us, my immediate reaction is going to be "oh. how original."
And basically everyone besides the wizard has these stats. We also have a Ranger, Bard, Cavalier and Wizard. Buffed up health, buffed up AC, huge attacks. I don't know if how I can combat this so that the game is fun. Even the players said last session was boring because there was no danger. Any advice on buffing monsters? Specific monsters to use? More Traps? Anything can help.
Look up Tucker's Kobolds and pull a tucker on them. Send waves and waves of Kobolds against them, but play them like they want to defend their home. Make sure the kobolds use skirmisher tactics and guerrilla tactics. Hit and run, making the kobolds an absolute threat.
A parting piece of advice, if you are going to increase their stats, do so by advancing the monsters or using the simple advanced template, that way the payoff of playing at a disadvantage against the monsters is offset by the delicious increased EXP awards and level appropriate treasure.
The higher the risk, the greater the reward should be.
There will be a lot of grumbling, but lower the PC's ability scores!
With such a big group, you need to make a couple of minor changes or you will need to throw out the CR system, and just wing it. Rather then go through all that trouble, here are the changes I would make:
15pt buy, with no starting stat above 17 after racial adjustments.
Ask players to avoid adding lots of additional mounts, summons, animal companions, cohorts, etc.
Keep a limit on wealth, and consider giving the players well less then WBL.
Use the slow XP progression, and generally try to keep the party a level under where a 4 person party would be.
Avoid using single monster encounters if possible. Single monsters don't work well in a 4 person party, but are REALLY problematic with such a large group.
Even with all of these changes it will still be tough to challenge the party, but it least you have a chance.
NOTE: Keep using the adventure path! They are awesome! Just tone down the party, add a few more mooks into each encounter, and apply the advanced template frequently. Also, the first couple of encounters in an AP are usually on the easy side, but they usually toughen up, and by the time you reach the first boss monster, you'll be knocking PCs into negative hit points.
Don't increase the CR of the individual opponents. Increase the number of opponents. Increasing the CR seems like the right answer but you're going to see them having a hard time dealing with the higher AC, higher saves, higher attack bonuses, higher damage, etc.
The advice others gave on increasing hit points and increasing the number of opponents is much better than increasing the CR of each monster.
I agree with Bob add extra bad guys I know it's tempting to put in a higher cr monster but with that you run the risk of one hit kills.
I've had this happen in a game I was playing in.
We where a party of 6 with stat's much the same as you have and the GM put us up against an ogre, the combat only lasted about 3 rounds before we killed it
But it also killed our cleric with one hit and it wasn't a crit he just did close to max damage (20 hp I think) and my fighter was put on to about 3 hits as well so all it would take is a couple of lucky rolls and a party can be slaughtered.
So I say more smaller monsters
I see your reasoning, but actually I think this is a mistake, for purely pragmatic reasons. The number one thing you want to avoid at a table where there are already seven players, is having to take a lot of turns. If you don't mind combat taking hours and hours, then by all means add tons of enemies.
I did mention the other problems that you bring up already, but I think they are only significant problems for the next couple of levels. That kind of thing tends to start smoothing itself out significantly in the middle levels (5-10).
On the other hand, there is something to be said for your reasoning in this particular case, but only because the OP is really straining the bounds of the CR system by giving such high ability scores AND simultaneously running a table of seven players. I'll admit, designing encounters for such a group that are both streamlined and balanced is no mean feat.
Alright so last session my players just leveled up to 2nd level and in my opinion I can do nothing to kill them besides throw way stronger monsters at them and here's why.
Just play your monsters like they want to survive and/or kill the PCs and they will. Throwing stronger monsters is rarely the only solution, or even a good solution.
Their AC, HP, and Attack Roll Modifiers are extremely high, in my opinion, so tell me if I'm doing something wrong...
The Cleric's has 18 AC(Breastplate Armor +6, Shield +2, +0 DEX) +1 attack bonus, and 17 HP (He took the toughness feat)
Not very high. Enemies can easily hit this. Your standard garden variety goblin warriors have a +4 to hit with their shortbows. They hit them on a 14, which isn't a bad roll given the cleric is using a shield. Likewise, the cleric should be tough, he has Toughness. He took a feat to improve his survivability, that's what it's for.
Paladin has 18 AC (Armor +4, Shield +2, +2 Dex), +8 attack roll bonus (+2 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus), 23 HP (2d8+2, Toughness Feat), also he has a Greatsword.
Besides listing his HD incorrectly (it should be at least 2d10+3 since he has Toughness), I assume the Paladin is wielding the shield when he's not using the greatsword. The Paladin is a front-liner, so this is to be expected. The Paladin should also be wearing Chainmail if possible, given his AC could easily be 18 with the 2 hander or 20 with the shield. His to hit rolls seem fine, as he is obviously built to deal direct damage with his weapon.
Barbarian has 18 AC (Armor +4, Dex +4), +7 attack roll, +9 while raging, and 29 HP (2d12+3, Toughness feat), also a Greatsword.
Not bad. I guess this must be the guy who rolled or something? 18 Dexterity is uncommon on Dexterity while also sporting an 18 in Strength, but whatever works, right? When raging his AC hits 16, and is again easy to hit.
And basically everyone besides the wizard has these stats. We also have a Ranger, Bard, Cavalier and Wizard. Buffed up health, buffed up AC, huge attacks. I don't know if how I can combat this so that the game is fun. Even the players said last session was boring because there was no danger. Any advice on buffing monsters? Specific monsters to use? More Traps? Anything can help.
Again, just play your enemies intelligently. Have them use some tactics. Tag-teaming, flanking, reach weapons, alchemical weapons (acid flasks, alchemist fires, tanglefoot bags, etc), nets, potions (1st level potions are 50gp and give stuff like enlarge person).
Specific monsters aren't an issue. You should increase the XP budget of your encounters by 25% for every party member above 4. So if you have 7 players, increase the XP budget by 75%. Thus a CR 2 encounter (600 XP) would be 1,050 XP worth of enemies instead. Use more enemies more frequently than stronger enemies.
If you need more detailed advice, just ask. The short answer is no, your party is so very not-OP.
I started a game where stat gen was 3d6 and they started out as commoners on the way to becoming adventurers. Some complained, some raged, but they adapted. Allowed stats to increase (or decrease) based on player actions and in-game investment. So no one started with eighteen, eighteen, eighteen, but those who got to an eighteen really earned it (higher stats were also harder to improve).
With this, really good stats mean something, and you don't get the ridiculous situation where wizards have 16 dex and 14 con and it is not explained or justified (was he a triathlete at the wiz academy? Did he do five semesters of boxing?). Go low stats, and the strengths come out stronger, characters actually have weaknesses (which is against player entitlement, but don't listen!). Also remember to modify the monsters, but that can be good to give them more weaknesses.
Game hard.
Just to point out, the cleric needs a light shield in order to be able to cast spells when also having a weapon in the other hand.
The same applies to the paladin but in addition to spellcasting the paladin needs a light shield in order to use lay on hands on himself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seven players and very high stats is pretty much a guarantee of disaster. You could keep continually adding to the power and number of your enemies but frankly that gets exhausting and is generally not so fun particularly if you are inexperienced.
Most players want high stats. Its fun for them (at least for a while) to trounce things, often not so much to you.
Work out the equivalent point buy of their array. I bet its well over 20 from your "rolled very well" comment and the 20 str at lvl 2 (nuts).
Seriously, don't let things go any further. Sit them down. Tell them you realise the point array is crazy given the number of players and your trimming it (I would say 15 point buy given seven players but thats me).
No doubt most will whinge like children with their sweets taken away but its always best to rip the bandaid off as quickly as possible. If they threaten to walk out well thats a sign that your campaign wasn't going to get very far anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seven players and very high stats is pretty much a guarantee of disaster. You could keep continually adding to the power and number of your enemies but frankly that gets exhausting and is generally not so fun particularly if you are inexperienced.
Most players want high stats. Its fun for them (at least for a while) to trounce things, often not so much to you.
Work out the equivalent point buy of their array. I bet its well over 20 from your "rolled very well" comment and the 20 str at lvl 2 (nuts).
Seriously, don't let things go any further. Sit them down. Tell them you realise the point array is crazy given the number of players and your trimming it (I would say 15 point buy given seven players but thats me).
No doubt most will whinge like children with their sweets taken away but its always best to rip the bandaid off as quickly as possible. If they threaten to walk out well thats a sign that your campaign wasn't going to get very far anyway.
Pfft. 15 to 35, the point buy only increases strength just so far. 20 strength? Not significantly better than 18 strength, which is easily doable on a 15 PB. If a few high ability scores cause your game to grind to a halt or stop being fun for the GM, then it is only going to go so, so much worse later on.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When monsters are clearly designed specifically to counter a metagame factor (such as "druids don't wear metal armor, neither do monks, let's let them get some spotlight time!") then they are metagame monsters. Some GMs and players like them. I find them to be utterly ridiculous.So I don't put them in my games when I GM. Simple as that. Other GMs can utilize their wonderful metagame-ness all they like. I just have a major dislike of such obvious metagame stuff. It ruins MY verisimilitude, and as the GM I think it's best for my verisimilitude to be as high as possible. That's all.
Still, if I'm in a game and the GM throws a rust monster at us, my immediate reaction is going to be "oh. how original."
Your game. I like most of your posts, but this one needs to be challenged.
So, I'm going to make the counter-point for why rust monsters could exist and might just be around, without it being just 'meta-gaming' or GM dickishness directly to your post:
Rust monsters are not naturally-occurring critters. They were specifically and specially created/bred to unleash against warriors-- because metal armor and weapons (in game, in the knowledge of people in the game) have been in use for a long time... given the already exhibited capability of wizards, druids, etc, to create new types of magical creatures (of very diverse capabilities), it's not a stretch at all to think that a powerful caster might deliberately breed such critters specifically to discourage/neutralize/weaken unwelcome warrior guests. Again-- In game. In character for powerful NPCs (likely enemies).
If you think that you have to be a metagaming dick, or just totally unoriginal, to use a rust monster-- then by the same principle, you have to be a metagaming dick anytime you throw any kind of trap at your party that might destroy equipment (since that is essentially what the rust monster is used for)... or for that matter, that might give the rogue a solo chance to shine, while the others get to watch the rogue do his thing (although this is one of the traditional "spotlight times" for the rogue...).
Rust monsters thrown around randomly, or thrown in just to give the druid and monk a spotlight moment, with no good in-game reason for their presence? Sure, that's really obnoxious metagaming.
Rust monsters there because some current or ancient occupant left them in the area to piss off, inconvenience and delay unwelcome visitors? A deliberately set trap by an enemy who has the capabilities and figures (correctly) that destroying your swords and armor will really cause some problems for you? A challenge, that may well require other people than the main fighters to step up and deter-- but not simply a meta-gaming move.
Still not to your taste? No problem-- you don't have to use them. But the blanket accusation that they are just a meta-gaming feature, and that's the only way they can be thrown in and used, is a little bit over the top.
Monks, druids and archer rangers take down rust monsters just fine. It is just resentment at the idea of losing items. Probably some anger at the memory of old experiences.
What players hate the most, can be used to good effect when that player is the dm. Examples are the oozes, beholders, rust monsters and trolls in close and wet quarters.
You can give them a challenge. Nets, touch attacks, rust monsters, poisoned arrows from snipers. Get inventive, but remember, don't be a dick.Rust Monster + dick...
One time I attacked a PC group with a rust monster a fairy sorcerer just hasted. It ate a suit of armor and a plus one sword before the monk could jump on it.
Nom nom nom, try a rust lord. Then some nishruus for the spellcasters.
I disagree dragon, and I see cranewings post. Yep, if they are in the world, then for these creatures most pc groups are a giant buffet. Nishruus are predators for spellcasters and also like to chew on tasty magic items (oh noes we filled all our body slots and attracted the nishruus, aaaaaaah!).
For rust monsters, if you fight cults of rovagug, go into dungeons, or are near dwarven cities where they are a pest, you are in their world now. There are also regions rust lords can be found (love that monster).
When monsters are clearly designed specifically to counter a metagame factor (such as "druids don't wear metal armor, neither do monks, let's let them get some spotlight time!") then they are metagame monsters. Some GMs and players like them. I find them to be utterly ridiculous.
So I don't put them in my games when I GM. Simple as that. Other GMs can utilize their wonderful metagame-ness all they like. I just have a major dislike of such obvious metagame stuff. It ruins MY verisimilitude, and as the GM I think it's best for my verisimilitude to be as high as possible. That's all.
Still, if I'm in a game and the GM throws a rust monster at us, my immediate reaction is going to be "oh. how original."
Some good old rust monster info.
"A rust monster is a fictional creature from the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game that seeks out and consumes metal, often the armor and weaponry of players' characters. Originally inspired by a cheap plastic toy, the rust monster was one of the first monsters specifically created for D&D, and has been included in every edition of D&D, although various aspects of the creature have changed from edition to edition. Although in most editions, the rust monster has been a non-lethal creature with little or no way of physically harming players' characters, it is the rust monster's ability to destroy a character's cherished and expensive weapons and armor in mere seconds that makes it a particularly fearsome opponent."
"When I picked up a bag of plastic monsters made in Hong Kong at the local dime store to add to the sand table array ... there was the figurine that looked rather like a lobster with a propeller on its tail ... nothing very fearsome came to mind ... Then inspiration struck me. It was a "rust monster." —Gary Gygax[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_monster
The rust monster could also only be the beginning! It could be the basis of an entire adventure. Repel the rust monsters from below. Players learn to make and use wood weapons, darkwood later, and to kill them as quick and effectively as possible. They learn respect for the quarterstaff, the greatclub, the wooden flail and wooden morningstar. I have also seen the rust monster merged with the ankheg into one creature to make a really nasty foe.
Originality: a dm can make it.
I DM for a party of 6 PC's and we used 25 point buy. Six PC's is APL +1 so I take that into consideration when designing encounters. 25-point buy is quite a bit higher than the assumption the game is based on, but my players want to feel like rock stars so we went with it (in the future I'd prefer 20 point, but whatever). To compensate for that I apply the simple advanced template to many monsters, but I don't increase the CR of the monster.
I have to be careful about which things I apply the template to and which I don't. For instance, I rarely apply both the advanced template and PC levels to a monster due to the huge stat bump it provides (but on rare occasion I have if I want to really beef something up). Good luck!
When monsters are clearly designed specifically to counter a metagame factor (such as "druids don't wear metal armor, neither do monks, let's let them get some spotlight time!") then they are metagame monsters. Some GMs and players like them. I find them to be utterly ridiculous.So I don't put them in my games when I GM. Simple as that. Other GMs can utilize their wonderful metagame-ness all they like. I just have a major dislike of such obvious metagame stuff. It ruins MY verisimilitude, and as the GM I think it's best for my verisimilitude to be as high as possible. That's all.
Still, if I'm in a game and the GM throws a rust monster at us, my immediate reaction is going to be "oh. how original."
Your game. I like most of your posts, but this one needs to be challenged.
So, I'm going to make the counter-point for why rust monsters could exist and might just be around, without it being just 'meta-gaming' or GM dickishness directly to your post:
Rust monsters are not naturally-occurring critters. They were specifically and specially created/bred to unleash against warriors-- because metal armor and weapons (in game, in the knowledge of people in the game) have been in use for a long time... given the already exhibited capability of wizards, druids, etc, to create new types of magical creatures (of very diverse capabilities), it's not a stretch at all to think that a powerful caster might deliberately breed such critters specifically to discourage/neutralize/weaken unwelcome warrior guests. Again-- In game. In character for powerful NPCs (likely enemies).
If you think that you have to be a metagaming dick, or just totally unoriginal, to use a rust monster-- then by the same principle, you have to be a metagaming dick anytime you throw any kind of trap at your party that might destroy equipment (since that is essentially what the rust monster is used for)... or for that matter, that might give the rogue a solo chance to shine, while the others...
Finn, OK, I can accept the idea that rust monsters are a sort of "doomsday weapon" created by a mage that somehow got loose and now roams the world. That at least provides a plausible reason for their existence. But that doesn't change the fact that they were originally conceived and created for exactly the reasons I listed, which is still something I find unsatisfying.
A campaign that explored the concept of magically engineered creatures designed for specific purposes by a super powerful mage with the ability to create actual lifeforms like rust monsters would be pretty cool. And rust monsters would definitely make sense in such a campaign, but then I would like to see more such creations.
Which makes me wonder... is there a way using the rules to create engineered creatures, or would we be talking about ancient super-powerful mages similar to those who created artifacts (another thing PCs can't do.)
You've provided a very plausible way to incorporate rust monsters into a campaign. If you presented me with a world like that, I would be fine with your rust monsters. ;)
I also don't think the party is too overpowered. (But you did allow higher stats than I would have.)
Baseline goblins are a level lower, usually have lousy gear and stats, and barely outnumber your huge group. They should be a push over.
For baseline goblins to seriously challenge a 2nd level party, I would say they should have at least 2 to 3 times the numbers of the party. They should also use cowardly goblin tactics. Ambush, traps, running away, poisoned arrows, flanking, running away, shoot at the guys in back (less armor), spoiling attacks at night (stop them from regaining spells), running away, track and attack during another fight, parley and betrayal, running away, sniping from 3' tunnels, etc...
A couple of weak incorporeal foes could give them fits. A kobald sorc at the back of the mob with some ray spells. A ranged enemy shooting from on top of a building. A flying enemy dropping rocks. A swamp for those armored brutes to sink into. Hobgoblins with nets and tanglefoot bags. Gnolls with reach weapons.
Seven players and very high stats is pretty much a guarantee of disaster. You could keep continually adding to the power and number of your enemies but frankly that gets exhausting and is generally not so fun particularly if you are inexperienced.
Most players want high stats. Its fun for them (at least for a while) to trounce things, often not so much to you.
Work out the equivalent point buy of their array. I bet its well over 20 from your "rolled very well" comment and the 20 str at lvl 2 (nuts).
Seriously, don't let things go any further. Sit them down. Tell them you realise the point array is crazy given the number of players and your trimming it (I would say 15 point buy given seven players but thats me).
No doubt most will whinge like children with their sweets taken away but its always best to rip the bandaid off as quickly as possible. If they threaten to walk out well thats a sign that your campaign wasn't going to get very far anyway.
Pfft. 15 to 35, the point buy only increases strength just so far. 20 strength? Not significantly better than 18 strength, which is easily doable on a 15 PB. If a few high ability scores cause your game to grind to a halt or stop being fun for the GM, then it is only going to go so, so much worse later on.
Couldn't disagree more. 30 vs 15 points is a big difference in player power. And at best it exacerbates the existing (and presumably unavoidable challenge) to the DM from having seven players.
Even if your a super awesome enough DM to handle it (and OP seems inexperienced), why do it? If he mucks up the balance then noone has fun. Even if he gets it right its just so the players can feel like super heroes while he has to spend substantially longer on prep increasing his own chance of burn out. Who actually gains from the whole thing?
Party of 7 PC with average party level 2 is thing you have to deal with.
1) No leadership feat. Out to many PC in the party and many be as many as 3 pets minimum of 1 pet for sure so that 8 to 10 guy on the PC side.
2) You have to up the number appearing in a single fight.
a) if monster is one hit wonder ie straight goblin. There need to be at lest 2 for every one so 14 or 15 in one fight. So every one get chance to go up to bat.
3) You have to run more fight in day. The 3 fight work day when out the door in pathfinder. Try more like one fight per PC in a day.
4) Bosses or Big Bad sole monster APL +3 with help or +4 solo
5) Pyramid fights 1 boss (APL +2 or 3), 2 body guard (APL +0 or +1), 7 or more (APL -1 or -2)
*Ie try this 1 CR 5 Troll 2, 2 CR 3 Ogres, 8 CR 1 wolfs.
6) Control crafting by controlling gold and time to craft.
a) Keep the wealth 75% of Average Wealth per Character level.
b) Avoid long stretches of down time with money in there hands.
7) Avoid giving the perfect item to help PC build. Ie Stat Items, Wands, Pearls of power, Ring of Protection, Scroll with new spell in wizard book. Bond item is huge power.
8) Attack in waves * Round #1 Wolfs attack the party in melee using flanks and ogre attack in missile and close range. Round #2 2 Ogre enter melee with wolfs Troll show up at missile range and closes. Round #3 all in troll moves in to melee with one attack. Round #4 all hell breaks lose everybody is in melee.
9) Split the party ie two level fight. Use a cliff split party has to climb will some down at base some be on the wall some will be on the top. That way it becomes smaller fight.
10) Terrain or Location, Location for the fight.
11) Think of way use/give conditions to all the party in prefight, fatigued, shaken, and sickened.
Running before battle Fort save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds
Wolves howling Will save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 for shaken 1d4+1 rounds
Sewer stench Fort save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 Sicken for 1d4+1 rounds
12) Let bad guys prep and buff up before fight do not let PC do it as much.
6) Control crafting by controlling gold and time to craft.
a) Keep the wealth 75% of Average Wealth per Character level.
b) Avoid long stretches of down time with money in there hands.7) Avoid giving the perfect item to help PC build. Ie Stat Items, Wands, Pearls of power, Ring of Protection, Scroll with new spell in wizard book. Bond item is huge power.
11) Think of way use/give conditions to all the party in prefight, fatigued, shaken, and sickened.
Running before battle Fort save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds
Wolves howling Will save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 for shaken 1d4+1 rounds
Sewer stench Fort save DC 10 +1/2 APL +1 Sicken for 1d4+1 rounds...
Whatever you do, don't follow any of the above advice.