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Hello!
So I'm doing a little more work on my campaign setting and I'm having a hard time with the Monk. My setting is based on Europe, the Middle East and Africa. When I look at the Monk's weapon proficiencies most of them wouldn't even exist in this setting. Also all of the special ability names and such are very far eastern.
Pretty much all the other classes can be plugged into most any culture that's advanced to the "state" (armor wearing) level, from England to Japan. Even Cavaliers and Druids work if you view them as the Knights and Shamans of various cultures. So I'm asking myself (and all of you) what's the non-East Asian equivalent to a Monk?
In having PC monks in the west we could just say that he's a wanderer from a distant and exotic land. This however would make rather out of place in the world and would greatly limit the options for NPC Monks. Just dropping a Chinese Monastery in the middle of Medieval Britain would be kind of cheap imo.
I'm considering working in westernized Monks but I would need change their flavor. For instance I could see the Middle Eastern styled regions having a fortress monastery loosely inspired by Alamut. Not really sure where they'd fit in to the European and African styled areas however.
Anywho does anyone have or know of archetypes or alternate classes for non-East Asian Monks? Like a variant that makes them less culturally specific. What would be neat is something along the lines of the Cavalier to Samurai mod in reverse... but for Monks!
I dunno. Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated. :D
Steven Seagal
For European style monks, think Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood stories. There were several orders of friars from Medieval Europe that would fit. Some were based out of monasteries; others had traveling friars with bases at key locations to support them. All of them sought their own version of perfection, and while not a straight port, the model could easily be adapted.
If you're looking for something reminiscent to Western Monks, Cloistered Clerics from Ultimate Magic is what you'd be looking for.
Hello!
Anywho does anyone have or know of archetypes or alternate classes for non-East Asian Monks? Like a variant that makes them less culturally specific. What would be neat is something along the lines of the Cavalier to Samurai mod in reverse... but for Monks!
I think you'll want to use the Martial Artist Monk archetype. They lose their Ki powers and fancy supernatural abilities to gain more physical abilities. It makes much more sense as a 'western' character and totally changes the flavor.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/martial-artist
Edit: of course, if you are looking for something that can be called a western 'Monk', you'll probably just want to use a variant Cleric.
Capoeira has African origins; an unarmed monk could be flavored as such.
*Considers homebrewing a capoeira archetype for monk.*
For European style monks, think Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood stories. There were several orders of friars from Medieval Europe that would fit. Some were based out of monasteries; others had traveling friars with bases at key locations to support them. All of them sought their own version of perfection, and while not a straight port, the model could easily be adapted.
Ya I could see how that might work. The question then is how to modify the class to fit that theme?
If you're looking for something reminiscent to Western Monks, Cloistered Clerics from Ultimate Magic is what you'd be looking for.
I'll have to look that up! :D
Serious talking though, I think the Martial Artist archetype would work best. You'd be a French Savate guy, or a Brazillian Capoerista. MoMS could work too as well as the original monk. Drunken Master could work for British Pugilists (except for that wicked flamethrower attack they get).
I'm considering working in westernized Monks but I would need change their flavor. For instance I could see the Middle Eastern styled regions having a fortress monastery loosely inspired by Alamut. Not really sure where they'd fit in to the European and African styled areas however.
Your best bet, IMO, is definately the Middle Eastern 'Assasins's Creed' assassin style monk. Your weapon proficiencies even work for the most part, with weapons such as shuriken/throwing knives, butterfly swords, and temple blades filling the iconic roles.
I think this definately works the best.
Western style unarmed/martial arts character I think works better as a Brawler Fighter honestly.
I think you'll want to use the Martial Artist Monk archetype. They lose their Ki powers and fancy supernatural abilities to gain more physical abilities. It makes much more sense as a 'western' character and totally changes the flavor.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/martial-artist
Edit: of course, if you are looking for something that can be called a western 'Monk', you'll probably just want to use a variant Cleric.
hmmm Good points. The whole martial artist thing is unfortunately a bit awkward in Europe. :/
Capoeira has African origins; an unarmed monk could be flavored as such.
*Considers homebrewing a capoeira archetype for monk.*
That would be awesome! Exactly the kind of thing I'd be looking for. :D
I'd also say, dont be afraid to declare that some classes or archetypes are innapropriate for your setting.
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If, by "monk" you mean "a disciplined expert of martial combat, usually without weapons," then consider the following possibilities:
- The historical Assassins
- Fencing clubs
- Gnostic mystics
- Hindu gurus
- Alchemical health fanatics
- Pankration and Greek wrestling
- real-world Dervishes
- Templars going underground
- Feral warriors
- Boxing
- Secret societies, Illuminati
- Sovereign Military Order of Malta
- The Biblical story of Samson
Any of those could be reskinned as a Western source of monks.
The easy way would be to use the martial artist monk and flavor it with Capoeira as the martial arts style, but I'm sure I'll have a few free minutes at work this evening so I'll probably build either a combat style feat chain or an archetype for it while bored and post it here if you are still interested when it is done.
I've plenty of experience homebrewing: Recent example. [/blatant-plug]
Serious talking though, I think the Martial Artist archetype would work best. You'd be a French Savate guy, or a Brazillian Capoerista. MoMS could work too as well as the original monk. Drunken Master could work for British Pugilists (except for that wicked flamethrower attack they get).
That's the Fighter Archetype from UC yes?
Your best bet, IMO, is definately the Middle Eastern 'Assasins's Creed' assassin style monk. Your weapon proficiencies even work for the most part, with weapons such as shuriken/throwing knives, butterfly swords, and temple blades filling the iconic roles.
I think this definately works the best.
Western style unarmed/martial arts character I think works better as a Brawler Fighter honestly.
I do like the idea of the 'Assasins's Creed' style "Monk". I'm just not sure how it should be modified (if at all) to fit that theme?
If, by "monk" you mean "a disciplined expert of martial combat, usually without weapons," then consider the following possibilities:
- The historical Assassins
- Fencing clubs
- Gnostic mystics
- Hindu gurus
- Alchemical health fanatics
- Pankration and Greek wrestling
- real-world Dervishes
- Templars going underground
- Feral warriors
- Boxing
- Secret societies, Illuminati
- Sovereign Military Order of Malta
- The Biblical story of Samson
Any of those could be reskinned as a Western source of monks.
All excellent suggestions! ^_^
The question I would have is how to reskin them or has anyone already done so somewhere?The easy way would be to use the martial artist monk and flavor it with Capoeira as the martial arts style, but I'm sure I'll have a few free minutes at work this evening so I'll probably build either a combat style feat chain or an archetype for it while bored and post it here if you are still interested when it is done.
I've plenty of experience homebrewing: Recent example. [/blatant-plug]
Awesome!
The following is from canonfire and is in response to a very similar question. I thought I would repost it here.
The monk was the very first class I played AD&D with. Personally, I love 'em, all flavors of 'em, from the one found in the pages of the AD&D Player's Handbook, to the better one in Dragon #53 (later reprinted in Best of Dragon #something), to the strange one of 3.0 and the slightly improved one of 3.5, and finally to the pretty good one Pathfinder gave us.I never played any of the 2nd edition sub-set monks, instead we just kept on trucking with a modified Best of Dragon monk as the class during those years.
As to why? It isn't about the power: if that is what is drawing you to the monk, go play a wizard. It is the idea, I reckon, that by pursuing the path of physical and spiritual perfection, a mortal man (or woman) can transform himself (or herself) into a living weapon that can thwart the Undead, hordes of demi-humans, demons, devils, and even Dragons!
One thing I don't see when I play a monk is modern wuxia films. Instead, I go back to the old concept (from the Kung-Fu series that Gary Gygax based the monk on) of a lone master who seeks to understand his own self, and through that internal understanding, understand the world. My monks have always been inquisitive and seekers of knowledge, and they understand that even the most inconsequential power (speak with animals) can allow to him to know things that often escape the other characters.
I would imagine that pretty much any non-chaotic faith would have at least a few monasteries scattered around the Flaness. Many gamers feel that with Zuoken being Baklunish that they must make monks from the Baklunish West. But I don't agree. I believe that any religion devoted to a neutral or lawful deity would have its own order. And for stick fighting monks, I think an Order of the Cudgel following St. Cuthbert would be pretty nifty!
With 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder, the monk has kind of diverged from the course that GG and the early writers charted. It has left behind all of the spiritual improvements to concentrate on attacks per round, damage, and the mechanics. It is workable, but to me in the conversion it lost a bit of its soul. Sure, there are folks that don't want all of those little things that made the 1st edition monks so cool, but they really don't know what they are missing. You see, the monk was neither Eastern nor Western in the 1st edition (outside of Oriental Adventures, of course). Sure, the names of the abilities implied an eastern origin, but we only saw kamas and sianghams and nunchuka and shuriken in 3.0. So we can blame wizards for making the monk appear eastern.
Finally, it takes a dedicated person who is willing to play with the concept to play a monk well. For this class, you really need to have someone who is willing to think outside the box, to stop and take a moment to think before just blindly charging in; to truely enjoy a monk being played in your game, you have to find a player who is able to devote himself to making his character better. If you find that player, then you will discover why the monk--through all the editions--has such a loyal fanbase.
Just my thoughts on the subject. Anyway, let me say that the monk is well-worth having in your games (if only as NPCs) provided that you take the time to use him well. May you enjoy your journey to spiritual enlightenment and physical perfection with the original AD&D monk.
Master Arminas
There are a couple of threads here on the Paizo boards that deals with a revised monk. Here they are if you are interested.
PF Monk as It Should Have Been
Master Arminas
nope. I stated monk archetypes.
hmmm Good points. The whole martial artist thing is unfortunately a bit awkward in Europe. :/
True, it doesn't quite fit in medieval Europe. Still, I basically think of it as playing Chuck Norris instead of Bruce Lee ;)
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If, by "monk" you mean "a disciplined expert of martial combat, usually without weapons," then consider the following possibilities:
- The historical Assassins
- Fencing clubs
- Gnostic mystics
- Hindu gurus
- Alchemical health fanatics
- Pankration and Greek wrestling
- real-world Dervishes
- Templars going underground
- Feral warriors
- Boxing
- Secret societies, Illuminati
- Sovereign Military Order of Malta
- The Biblical story of Samson
Any of those could be reskinned as a Western source of monks.
All excellent suggestions! ^_^
The question I would have is how to reskin them or has anyone already done so somewhere?
Just reskin the fluff, and keep the mechanics the same.
For example, imagine a secret society monk, a member of a brotherhood. Think of hidden conspiracy groups, like those seen in The Da Vinci Code. Now just imagine that each one of these people hidden in differing positions of power all know how to kick your butt.
As for the kama, nunchaku, and siangham, they're really just weapons that deliver slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage while you flurry. Replace them with a unique-looking knife, club, and gimlet that act as symbols of the secret society, and you're good to go.
Wrestlers, Pugalists, Boxers, irish that were forbidden weapons.. about the only thing you need to modify is the weapons list and possibly the lawful requirement.
A greco-roman wrestler could work just fine -- especially when you consider that the original Olympics were part of an attempt to prove who excelled the most.
This would be a fine place to work out a continuing line of 'monks' (especially when current theory holds that it was these arts that Alexander the Great took east and eventually became the basis for eastern martial arts).
Ok after reading everyones posts here's my initial thoughts.
My setting is based more the vast period of "ancient times" (mismatch of everything from before 1,000 AD) rather then focusing on the ever so brief Renaissance period of the standard Pathfinder setting. As such I'm not so worried about pseudo-Catholic friars and such.
For the European region I'm thinking sort of an obscure mystery cult.
For the Middle Eastern region a sort of Alamut like assassin's order.
For the Africa region... well pretty much Capoeira.
I'm kind of thinking I'd need an archetype sort of thing for each of those. So I guess I'd need to figure out is what sort of weapons to switch out and what special abilities to to alter in order to achieve the themes I'm looking for. Also should I base them off the basic Monk or off the Martial Artist? Maybe change Ki to um... Essence? Focus? Power? I dunno. Any suggestions?
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There is a martial art called "Stav" which is according to Ivar Hafskjold (the person who revived the practice of stav) 1500 years old. The technique is based on nordic myths, and when it is used in combat you stand in different stances resembling the nordic runes (almost like kung fu's animal stances). According to a danish newspaper it should look like a mixture between Tai Chi and Kendo when practiced.
You should be able to find some youtube videos where it is praticed if you search on Stav or Ivar Hafskjold.
I had a city that is slightly Byzantine, but the city forced everyone to have their weapons peace bound. There was a group that nobles would hire called the Guild of Porters. They were big guys who would truck around your stuff at one end, but all of them were trained bodyguards in the arts of unarmed conflict. They were able to protect their charges from many different forms of harm and were difficult to disarm themselves.
It is very easy to leave the mechanics of the monk in place, just create your own flavor for the order. (Develop some kind of code or purpose.)
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For the European region I'm thinking sort of an obscure mystery cult.
For the Middle Eastern region a sort of Alamut like assassin's order.
For the Africa region... well pretty much Capoeira.I'm kind of thinking I'd need an archetype sort of thing for each of those. So I guess I'd need to figure out is what sort of weapons to switch out and what special abilities to to alter in order to achieve the themes I'm looking for. Also should I base them off the basic Monk or off the Martial Artist? Maybe change Ki to um... Essence? Focus? Power? I dunno. Any suggestions?
New names for ki:
I'd like to see variant monk weapons that aren't all based on Eastern Monks. I can take a monk a re-flavor the powers to fit the concept of western monk but the weapons just don't make sense and you can't really change those.
I'd like to see variant monk weapons that aren't all based on Eastern Monks. I can take a monk a re-flavor the powers to fit the concept of western monk but the weapons just don't make sense and you can't really change those.
How can you not change the weapons? You realize that 9/10 of them are simple weapons with a fancy name right?
I'd like to see variant monk weapons that aren't all based on Eastern Monks. I can take a monk a re-flavor the powers to fit the concept of western monk but the weapons just don't make sense and you can't really change those.
I was thinking of dropping their handful of exotic weapons for all the simple ones. Thus making them proficient in Simple Weapons, Handaxes, and Short Swords. Essentially you'd be replacing Kama with Sickle, Shuiken with Dart, and Nanchaku & Sai, with Maces & Morningstars. Siangham are basically Short Spears. I could see a dual sickle wielder as being fun. :)
Wrestlers, Pugalists, Boxers, irish that were forbidden weapons.. about the only thing you need to modify is the weapons list and possibly the lawful requirement.
I'd use the Martial Artist Monk Archetype. No Alignment requirement and with the exception of Quivering Palm no (Su or Sp) abilities.
I'd like to see variant monk weapons that aren't all based on Eastern Monks. I can take a monk a re-flavor the powers to fit the concept of western monk but the weapons just don't make sense and you can't really change those.How can you not change the weapons? You realize that 9/10 of them are simple weapons with a fancy name right?
and they almost all were modified tools that peasants used (Such as farm tools and such)
You could even reskin Shuriken as throwing knives.
Every society that has any martial tradition has a codified form of "Martial Arts" - if you see the term and think "dude in flowing robs flying on wires", well that's pop culture messing you up.
Maybe consider inspiration via a blending of modern and historical Jews. Medieval Europe of course had the Jews of the day as second-class citizens (on a good day) and they lived in their own enclaves, and many of them sought spiritual understanding through kabbala or other religious, monastic practice. And then we come to the modern day, and look at the Israeli martial art of krav maga...
While in the real world pathfinder style monks are rare in western cultures there is no reason this has to be true in a fantasy world. Look to fiction rather than history for your inspiration. The bloodgaurd of the Thomas Covenant series are a perfect example of “Western” monk. The basic monk could easily be someone who follows a different mystic tradition than that of a spell caster. They don’t even have to be connected to a monastery, or even called a monk. The Zen Archer is a perfect example of such a character.
If your setting accepts the idea that with proper training or innate talent a person is able to create their own pocket universe, than having someone able to train themselves to hit like a freight train should not be a problem. Just consider monks another form of wizard except they focus on their own bodies.
I'm gonna have to go with the Irish Bare Knuckle Boxing example. I think my next character might be a brawler with that, because it is part of my heritage.
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Kabbalist jew unarmed mystic warriors - that actually sounds pretty cool.
In my campaign, the lower classes of society aren't allowed to bear weapons. So some of them have fallen under the sway of the Godless Monks, actually Asura infiltrators in disguise. The Godless Monks are teaching the common people to fight without weapons, to tear down the old order.
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Or you could just be open to the idea that people moved. Such as these Japanese people who moved to Spain in the 17th century . Have anyone playing a Monk, Ninja or Samurai play a foreigner.
As far as a weapon swap goes, many of the eastern martial arts weapons were based on farm and craft tools that peasants who were not allowed weapons used to defend themselves. Place such a restriction in Europe, and you would likely have similar if not the same weapons. The weapons that do not match the farm tool/ trade tool modified for combat group, like a sai, could easily just be be allowed as a special dagger and so forth. A restriction on weapons also gives the monastery as a whole a reason to be an unarmed combat group, as stated above.
I always found DnD monks funny.
I started my roleplaying career with a Swedish system called Drakar & Demoner. It has monks. They are religious scribes with a variety of knowledge skills (herbs, medicine).
Then I learned about DnD and was... Surprised...
