What are the major problems with running a level 20 adventure?

[Halfling Barbarian]

I'm putting some work into a level 20 adventure that'll take approx. 3 to 4 game sessions to run. My thought is that most of my group are always planning high level but stuck running low level (26 game sessions max per year in any campaign due to work and family stuff for all of us), and I think it would be really fun to have that high level experience even just for a few sessions.

I know a lot of the numbers behind melee damage, and a lot of what can be accomplished with offensive and control magic and I think I have a grasp on balancing combat. I've already set wish/miricle to be able to only copy a spell effect of lower level (just like the descriptions), and outlawed the leadership feat.

I'm wondering what other rules I may have to come up with, and what other glaring problems I might encounter so that I can make some hard and fast rules now...

[Richard Leonhart]

My problems with higher levels are that I can't think of an encounter that is challenging, not only based on fights and fun.
Nearly everything can be solved by spells in a matter of rounds if not 1 standard action.

Also people have their capstone ability, have fun with the ninja :)

[Gorbacz]

Combat encounters take hours.

[Halfling Barbarian]

Gorbacz wrote:

Combat encounters take hours.

We're all warhammer players.

As for the ninja, I forgot to mention I outlawed the 'eastern classes' and gunslingers/alchemists. This is a western style midevel sword and sorcery adventure.

What are the major 'encounter ending' spells? There will be plenty of enemy spell casters, some spell turning effects, etc. I'm not aiming to gimp magic, but providing a challenge with different solutions is my job...

[WhipShire]

Dungeon magazine #93

Has an scalable 17 - 25th level adventure. Its a blast...

The Storm Lord's Keep

Find it here
cheap.

Great idea, gives you something to work with...

[Helaman]

Two Words: I wish...

[Halfling Barbarian]

WhipShire wrote:

Dungeon magazine #93

Has an scalable 17 - 25th level adventure. Its a blast...

The Storm Lord's Keep

Find it here
cheap.

Great idea, gives you something to work with...

Ooh...That may help some...

Helaman wrote:

Two Words: I wish...

I'm sure my restrictions above gimp wish enough, however if people don't think so I may ban it outright...

I'll have some dimensional anchor type spells and effects handy to keep the party from being able to escape and recharge their batteries whenever they want as well. They won't get much sleep through this, so their resources will be limited to an extent...

[Gorbacz]

Halfling Barbarian wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Combat encounters take hours.

We're all warhammer players.

As for the ninja, I forgot to mention I outlawed the 'eastern classes' and gunslingers/alchemists. This is a western style midevel sword and sorcery adventure.

What are the major 'encounter ending' spells? There will be plenty of enemy spell casters, some spell turning effects, etc. I'm not aiming to gimp magic, but providing a challenge with different solutions is my job...

I'm also a Warhammer player, all three editions of it. And I'll tell you - nothing* beats high-level 3.5/PF combats in length and complexity.

* yeah, yeah, RIFTS.

[Tandriniel]

Carefull with sorcerers with Time Stop and greater metamagic rods of quick casting. My 3.5 Sorcerer could easily yank 2d4+2 rounds out of the first round alone in situatuons that needed it. With the right movement abbilities, Stone Wall spells, etc, there is quite a lot of the encounter that can change in those first 6 seconds. Damage is limited, but the playfield changes can surprise. In dungeon settings, having the main room and soroundings explored, including adjacent monsters etc, can be a significant tactical advantage.

[Halfling Barbarian]

Tandriniel wrote:

Stuff about time stop.

Almost sounds like what I'm looking for them to do in certain situations. High level play is about getting the upper hand so a minion doesn't pincushion you with his bow before you get to take on a clutch of dragons or banish a demon lord...

[meabolex]

The biggest problem I've encountered at the high levels is the massive complexity of summons. You can make *so many* summons in a pretty small amount of time that they can simply overwhelm pretty much any combat you do. There are ways to deal with massive summons, but you have to deal with them *AND* the PCs at the same time. Usually the action economy is not in the GM's favor here. You really have to be prepared to deal with them in advance.

The time stop issue feeds into the summons: one second you're by yourself -- then you suddenly have numerous friendly summons to deal with. And it easily can happen again the next round. . . and potentially every first round of every combat.

[MicMan]

At 20th level the usual challenges (combat, hazard, mystery) do no longer function well.

So unless your players are not very imaginative and all create sub par characters you are advised to step away from rule-playing and enforce political/social ineraction more.

"Of course we could snuff the Leader of the opposing forces but he is the nephew of Grand Duke Plox who has ties to Asmodeus so we should try to solve this in another way."

Else tell your players that very often some of their powers will not function (aka 20th Level Adventure of not being 20th level).

About encounter ending spells. Well time stop+prismatic sphere+gate is the classic, but two Flesh to Stone a round with a save DC of 40+ can ruin your day fast.

[BEGS]

Time is your biggest problem in high level games.
I once ran a combat with a Dragon that lasted 2 game nights.
Guess about 10 hours........

[LazarX]

High level adventures are not merely scaled up versions of what you were doing at levels 5-8. They're practically a different game entirely which your low level play won't have prepared you for. Not having progressed to it organically, you're going to find yourself in for some rude surprises.

Best way to learn about the pitfalls is to go ahead and do it anyway.

[Ultradan]

Yeah... Those hours-long combats are a killer.

I'm finishing the last parts of Rise of the Runelords in the next few days (10-11 hours this Saturday, and another 6-7 hours next weekend) with my group. I suspect the final series of encounters (leading to and including the final boss fight) to last at the very least two to three full sessions... sigh.

:P

Ultradan

[Lastoth]

My favorite is gating in a BBEG whose special ability is to then gate in another BBEG of the same time, and so on. When does it stop? WHEN YOU MAKE THEM STOP.

[cibet44]

Here are my tips:

1. High level characters are best when they organically grow to that point. Just sitting down and building 18th level characters from scratch always results in ultra-optimized combat focused PCs that the players and GM are unfamiliar with. This leads to a very complex, time consuming, and un-fun play experience.

2. High level adventures need to be about the story and goal. The seeds for the capstone adventure should have been planted early in the PCs career.

3. High level PCs should be challenged by the environment as much as by the actual creatures. Deadly environments (magic or natural) are a must, the PCs still need to rely on those low level abilities to survive. High level PCs (sometimes) still need to eat and breathe so keep this in mind when designing the adventure, make those clerics use create food and water and endure elements, every day.

4. No sleep. In my campaigns, when we get to about 15th level or so, I always make sleeping very problematic and hard to come by. This can be done in various ways using the environment or opportunistic enemies with disposable minions or even curses or disease. I routinely have high level PCs go weeks without getting good rest.

5. Make high level abilities requirements don't look for ways to counteract them. Design the adventure so the players must fly to it or must teleport into it. Make the players use the abilities they have instead of looking for ways to keep them from using their abilities.

6. When using possession or domination type abilities on the PCs DO NOT use them to have the PCs attack each other. Just don't do it. If a PC must be dominated or possessed have the magic manifest in a detrimental way that DOES NOT include attacking friends. Instead they might begin randomly using consumable magic items, or casting spells on targets they know are immune, or using smite attacks on inert objects. There are plenty of things to do without degenerating to taking control of an 18th level character to attack another 18th level character (yuck).

7. Combat can (and will) be long and drawn out, just prepare for this. However, it is just as common for some fights to be very quick and deadly. Several times during my Savage Tide campaign I had 3 or 4 round battles that resulted in a PC or two being dead or unconscious and all the enemies defeated. These were some of the most memorable high level battles we have had to date. 3 quick rounds of massive damage, deaths, death effects, and the combat is over.

8. The PCs should feel their power. A great way to illustrate the power of high level PCs is by using their followers (or even some cohorts that are a few levels lower). Often high level PCs will meet things like solars or ancient dragons or balors, when this happens those lower level followers and cohorts should be paralyzed with fear or awe or both regardless of the actual abilities of the creatures. A 5th level fighter should just cower in the presence of a balor while 5th level cleric would fall to his knees into meditative prayer in front of a solar. All the while the high level PC can stand toe to toe or eye to eye with the being. This in itself is a victory of sorts and the player should get to experience it inside and outside of combat.

9. If you have a climactic battle you are building toward don't let the PCs get into it at full strength. They must be made to sacrifice on the way into the battle and they should know this, it should be part of the fight even though it doesn't take place during initiative. Maybe channel energy needs to be used to open gateways, or the paladin has to stay behind for three rounds to hold off an evil force with his divine aura, or the wizard needs to cast several high level damage dealing spells in succession without disruption to pass a ward while the rest of the party has to keep him moving, or maybe the ninja has to poison powerful living foe with a special poison that will force them into their true undead state for the real final battle.

10. Alignment. This is the climactic adventure for these PCs (since the level cap is 20) so there is no tomorrow. Someone should have to make a choice that goes against alignment and deity and pay the price.