Optimising BAB 17 / CL 19


Advice


Hi,

I'm putting together a Gendarme1/Wiz5/EK10/AA4

This will net bab 17 and cl17(19w/magical lineage)

Impressive stats, but how to best optimise it.
20pt buy

archery or melee?


What is a Gendarme? I would go with archery, but before I sign on that how many feat slots would you over the course of the character?


Gendarme is a cavalier archetype that geys a bonus feat at firstlevel (im thinking power attack) and gonna go maybe with order of the dragon.

Archery focus may be best (since you get imbune arrow/seeker arrow)

Feats is every odd level (10)
+3 for EK
+1(if human)
+1(wizard feat) + scribe scroll (maybe take scrollmaster or another wiz archetype or witch for hexes)


Archery, someone on here posts that build all the time (or used to) and specifically does not take arcane archer because it's just not that useful (especially by the time you can take it). I want to say it's Blueluck or Bluestone or something like that. I suggest human for the feat.

Honestly the combination of archery and nearly full casting is really powerful and you shouldn't need to optimize too hard. BAB stinks for the first 7 or 8 levels before it begins to catch up. I went transmuter for the stat bonus to a physical stat and ditched divination and enchantment. I took the familiar, and took Improved Familiar as soon as I could (faerie dragon). Since the familiar casts as a 3rd level sorcerer I just had him handle the wands of things like enlarge, shield and gravity bow. Every round he was either buffing me up or getting into position to buff someone else. He also makes healing potion runs if needed and could deliver touch spells, but I only used him to deliver buff touch spells, didn't see any reason to put him in harms way.

I also had a lot of fun with scorching ray, big damage ranged touch is just awesome on an archer/wizard. Don't forget to add your arcane strike to it.


I was thinking the free 1d20 die roll from diviner (foresight) was probably best.
This build will still function as the groups only arcane caster soprobably take craft wonderous with my wizard bonus feat.
Scrollmaster would get most mileage out of utility scrolls, saving castimg for combat.
Imbune arrow to deliver save or suck+ damage to bad guy. Seeking arrow takes care of concealment.

Order of dragon to buff allies.

Still want it to function in melee, so maybe point blank master with EK feats.


wouldnt your CL be lower? or are you saying 19 cos of magical knack?


Yep. Forgot the name.

So here's the deal. This dude will be a primary arcane who I want to not fear melee.

Prebuff before combat.
Start at range and drop a save or suck or dd with imbune arrow(confusion or wail of the banshee for example). When enemies close I can either switch hit to melee or just use a bpw in melee if I can get point blank master early enough.

I'll need quicken for swift buffs while fighting or casting.
Certain archery feats are needed for AA.
Power Attack so I can switch hit (only if I can't get pbm early enough).

I think Cav is best 1 level dip: more skill points and better class skills than fighter. Gendarme get me power attack at 1st level.
Wiz 5 (unsure of specialty but maybe foresight)
EK 3
AA4
EK 7

Completely unsure of feat progression atm.

Maybe
Cav1. Power Attack ( bonus), Weapon fcs: bow, Quickdraw
Wiz1,). Scribe scroll
Wiz2. ?
Wiz3.
Wiz4. ?
Wiz5. Wiz feat/discovery
EK1. ?+bonus feat
EK2.
EK3. ?
EK4.
EK5. Wpn Spl (Bow), Point Blank Master
AA1
AA2.?
AA3.
AA4.?
EK6
EK7.?
EK8.
EK9.?+bonus feat
EK 10.


Ok fleshed this out a bit more. Would appreciate feedback.

Half-Elf (favored class- Cavalier, Wizard HP option)

Cavalier Gendarme- Power Attack, Skill Fcs: Survival, Wpn Fcs: Longbow.-
Wizard- Scribe Scroll (Earth Elemental School- bonus to CMD and attack/damage vs opponents on ground). Arcane Bond would be a Longsword for 1st level masterwork and able to enchant it later. Maybe scrollmaster as well.
Wiz2. Arcane Armor Training
Wiz3
Wiz4 Point Blank Shot
Wiz5 • Fast Study
EK1 Precise Shot, Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline- Touch of Rage)
EK2
EK3Quicken SLA- Touch of Rage
EK4
EK5 Wpn Spl: Longbow, Point Blank Master
AA1 Enhance Arrow
AA2 Imbune Arrow, Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the beast)
AA3 Enhance Arrow
AA4 Seeking Arrow, Quicken Spell
EK6
EK7 Feat
EK8
EK9 Feat, Combat Feat
EK10.

Not sure about my feat selection.
What I'm going for is Caster first, but able to be a secondary melee or archer as required.

I think I achieve this ( as much as any cleric) by early level full BAB (with free masterwork sword, and earth focus caster getting a +1insight to ground based foes is effectively full BAB for first 3 levels, and keeps pace till 5 when a fighter has wpn fcs and wpn training)

Fast Study at level 6 is probably the best use ofy wizard feat. Letting me leave slots open and be preepd for whatever in 1 min.

Touch of Rage and Quicken SLA is probably the best swift melee buff for the level. By now with miss chance spells and armor I should have no fear of melee (I'll be mostly casting but anybody that closes could be in for a shock)

Point Blank Master means no need to switch weapons for melee.
Imbune arrow, Seeking Arrow is effectively a ranged 'spellstrike' ability to use when moving aboit the battle.

Strength of the beast ups melee to hit and damage and gets better as you level (I'll rely on a headband of Int and Cha for the ability score preq.

.
Quicken Spell is for fast buffs, but not sure about the spl failure issue with Mithral armor
Maybe just mithral breastplate and suck the failure chance.

Last three feats am unsure. Maybe rapid shot, deadly aim, manyshot but tjats real late amd by npw SR is always an issue.

Help please?


I'm unsure about having Point-Blank Master and Power Attack. As a cavalier, you get a free mount (granted it won't get better) that you can use to move you away from melee at early levels. If you push back some of the feats to take Boon Companion at around 5 or 7 you can boost its survivability all the way until you get PBM. Now that I think about it that may be a waste too, but it's just something to think about.

As for your last feats, since you're going caster first you'll definitely want Spell Penetration and maybe even Greater Spell Penetration. I'd still say get Deadly Aim as you can apply that to all your special arrow attacks while rapid shot/many shot require the full-attack action.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

if you're going for optimization it's always better to focus on less things: so pick either melee or archery but don't try to take some of each.

it seems like you're favoring archery- thats a good plan since some of the feats (like point blank and precise shot) will benefit ranged touch attacks (plus you'll need to take some if you're taking AA, so if you really want to optimize you need to go that direction); i'd drop power attack for deadly aim and forget about eldritch heritage in favor of more archery/ranged combat feats. truthfully, if you're going to be caster/archer i would go diviner and max out perception- try to get the drop on people to buff outside of combat and focus on straight damage during combat (switch to armor with 0% spell failure and that allows you to take advantage of a huge dex bonus, which you should make sure you have).

if you really like the idea of being a casty that can wade into melee i'd suggest forgetting about AA. i'd look at Barb1/Sor6/EK10 to start out with- from there i'd probably take 4 more levels of sorcerer cause by then you'll have plenty of buff spells to make up for those 2 points of BAB you miss. sorcerors arent as flexible as wizards but it'll free you to take eldritch heritage feats without having to invest points in two separate stats. if you really want to be a beast, take eldritch heritage and imp. heritage for abyssal and infernal[pit-touched] for the bonuses to str and con- whenever you go into combat add rage and you'll have a big hit/damage bonus and a ton of hp (go human with heart of the field and once/day you can drop rage to cast with no fatigue). spend the rest of your feats on wf, wpn spec, power attack, and whatever other combat feats you want (toughness and arcane armor are also good options- not to mention arcane strike, which you can stack with power attack, even while raging).

hope that's helpful. i'd love to see your final version.


It'd probably be me, Lastoth (though I believe Blueluck and I have the same avatar).

The build I generally post is:
Human Fighter (Lore Warden?) 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4

Hold off on the Arcane Archer, because it's bad....it just gets you the BAB and caster levels you need in the end.

Don't bother with Arcane Armor training. You want your swift actions for Arcane Strike....and with Mage Armor and high Dex you'll be fine most of the time. If you are going into melee, just rely on Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility and spells that keep enemies from having a good chance to hit you regardless of AC.

Traits: Magical Knack, Reactionary

Feats:
1 - Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Precise Shot
2 - Scribe Scroll
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Arcane Strike
6 - Craft Magical Arms and Armor/Craft Wondrous Item
7 - Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative
9 - Manyshot
11 - Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master
13 - Clustered Shots
15 - Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Precise Shot
17 - XXXXX
19 - XXXXX

This ends up primarily ranged, but if you want to melee you can spend a round to cast a polymorph spell and then do some damage with a big ol' polearm or something (I prefer the reach to compensate for any defensive buffs I may not have time to get up...and when polymorphing into somethign bigger you can have QUITE the reach). I would switch out Improved Initiative for Power Attack if I was planning on going melee often, and Clustered Shots can be switched out if you're a savvy gamer when it comes to packing arrows to overcome any damage resistance (and putting points in the correct Knowledge skills). Weapon Blanch and cold iron arrows are the key here.

SR isn't an issue with archery, use your spells for utility and buffing, use arrows for damage (lots of it).

Edit: And if you realize that most of the stuff you tend to fight is "bad guys" (meaning evil alignment) save up and put the Holy enchantment on your bow ASAP. It's a ginormous damage boost, especially combined with Gravity Bow (if you have time to put it up), Flame Arrow, and any other elemental enchants you can grab for your weapon (get corrosive first as it'll be resisted the least). Remember that you probably just want to get a +1 Bow, then load enchantments onto it and use Greater Magic Weapon to raise the actual enhancement bonus. This will allow you to effectively have a much more magical bow than you should at your level. I like to go for a +1 Holy Corrosive Bow to start with when I play this style of character.

Gravity Bow, Holy, Corrosive, Flame Arrow buff = 6d6 per arrow plus all your static modifiers like Str, Weapon Spec, Enhancement bonus, Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Arcane Strike etc.

Edit 2: If you're afraid of your bow getting sundered, invest in a glove of storing. Just free action pop your bow out at the start of your turn, attack, and store your bow as a free action at the end of your turn. Or make the glove yourself at half price if you make your bow your bonded item (enchant it for half) and take Craft Wondrous Item at 5.


Can a bow be an arcane focus? I thought you needed to ' wield' your bond to cast. Not simply hold.

Switching out Improved Inititave for PA sounds good.

I'll play with the build and check back...


Yeah, I have Sylvanites build as a companion, it's a sight to behold and makes me wish I had taken it as a main.


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Also, one thing I would recommend is a familiar with improved familiar instead of improved initiative at 7th, I like faerie dragon. Give the little guy a wand of shield or vanish to keep using on your first round of combat.

There is absolutely no reason to take power attack. If you take it realize it's just for flavor because I assure you it's adding nothing. God help them if they sunder your bow and you're forced to bring your casting abilities to bear on them.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Your fairy dragon can't cast shield or any other self only spell on you from a wand. It's a self only spell.

I do like the idea of the fairy dragon spamming you with vanish, I was thinking of something similar myself.


STR Ranger wrote:

Can a bow be an arcane focus? I thought you needed to ' wield' your bond to cast. Not simply hold.

Switching out Improved Inititave for PA sounds good.

I'll play with the build and check back...

I dunno. That's a tough ruling. Can a staff be an arcane focus then, since it's a two handed weapon that you need to "wield"? What about wielding your bow in one hand as an improvised weapon? Then does that count? What about a greatsword? If you take a hand off it to cast are you no longer wielding it?

It's in that "Ask your DM" area. I've never had anyone have a problem with it, but if it's a problem, just make your focus a ring. Then, depending on the rest of your group, take either Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item with your bonus feat for Wizard 5. Both are pretty important crafting abilities that will make you a hero to your group, that's why in the feat progression above I have both listed there.

Hope that helps!

@Lastoth: It's a fun build. I almost exclusively play caster/martial hybrids, even in video games....it's a weird obsession....but the above build is by far my favorite to play.


Dennis Baker wrote:

Your fairy dragon can't cast shield or any other self only spell on you from a wand. It's a self only spell.

I do like the idea of the fairy dragon spamming you with vanish, I was thinking of something similar myself.

Sure he can, share spell allows you or the familiar to basically count as "you".

@sylvanite yes, I agree it's great. I have a magus whip wielder build ready to go for another campaign. It's going to be a tough call between this build and that one.

Grand Lodge

Staff can be wielded one handed as it is a double weapon and double weapons may be wielded one handed and have just one of the sides be available. Bows must be wielded two handed so they may not be bonded items...unless your gonna still all your spells.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Lastoth wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:

Your fairy dragon can't cast shield or any other self only spell on you from a wand. It's a self only spell.

I do like the idea of the fairy dragon spamming you with vanish, I was thinking of something similar myself.

Sure he can, share spell allows you or the familiar to basically count as "you".

No, read it again. As I said, it only works with spells "The wizard" casts, and only with spells, not wands.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Staff can be wielded one handed as it is a double weapon and double weapons may be wielded one handed and have just one of the sides be available. Bows must be wielded two handed so they may not be bonded items...unless your gonna still all your spells.

Didn't realize that. The thought of someone wielding a dire flail in one hand but not a bow....hmph. Well, not necessary to the build, really. Magic do as you will.

Edit: For the record though, I just went back and re-read double weapons. You cannot use double weapons listed as "two-handed weapons" in one hand, to the best of my knowledge, unless you are of large enough size to do so. The line in there about using it one handed doesn't say "you're allowed to" it just says that if you are (which only creatures large enough can) then you only get to use one end of it. So my question still stands.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I've been contemplating something similar to this only using gunslinger instead of a cavalier/ fighter. I figure since I'm playing up through it the touch AC attacks will be a bit easier to pull off with the low BAB. Plus I can grab deadly aim.

The other thing I've been juggling is going unarmed fighter and picking up Kirin Strike for double INT to damage once per round (works with bows).


Ok, so found Lore warden and liked it.
But I agree the split focus is hard to do. Still I wanna try. So:

Forget the Eldritch Heritage feats. Can't afford the Cha.

I think Elf is the best race for this. Using a Longbow as my arcane bond. (Gonna go with group opinion that you can hold +cast and obviously swap to Composite asap)

I wanna go Cav at 1st level (more gold)
Lore Warden Weapon Fcs: Longbow, PBS
Wiz1Scribe Scroll
Wiz2 Arcane Strike
Wiz3
Wiz4 Precise Shot
Wiz5 Either Fast Study or Craft Wonderous Depending on item availability
EK1 Rapid Shot, Manyshot
EK2
Ek3 Weapon Spl: Longbow
AA1Enchant Arrow
AA2 Imbune Arrow, Point Blank Master
EK4
EK5 Power Attack, Deadly Aim
AA3 Enchant Arrow
AA4 Seeking Arrow, Improved Precise Shot
EK6
EK7 Quicken Spell
EK8
EK9 Persistant Spell, Snap shot
EK10

On a 20 point buy best I can manage is.
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 13 (14)
Int 17 (21)
Wis 10
Cha 7

Elf just seems better than human for the low light vision, +2 SR


Second level spell called Darkvision lasts an hour per level. I'd still go with human from a purely technical standpoint (the extra feat is really big at low levels with this build, especially if you want to go switch hitter).

Also, you should do whatever you think is fun to play. However, your build is going to struggle mightily at low levels. The point buy and feat spread just makes it really hard to spread yourself so thin. If you have other melee party members, you really may end up wishing you had just gone with archery. The AA levels are really better saved until the very end, as when you start taking AA you lose a caster level and fall further behind on spells. EK is great 1-10 once you enter it.

You say you want to go Cav at first, but then have Lore Warden in there and then wizard 5/ek 10/aa 4....which is it? Lore Warden makes the most sense for the 1 level in fighter you want to start the build with.

Also, ability wise...your Int doesn't need to be so high. You only need to get to a 19 int (and can do that with items, so a starting Int should be 13 or 14) by the end of the build to cast 9th level spells. You shouldn't be worried about DCs and penetrating spell resistance, as your spells in this style build are really for buffing and utility stuff, mostly outside of combat. It looks like you're trying to build an arcane archer who can do melee and is also planning on using spells against enemies. It's option overload. You can only do one thing per round, which means that the other two thirds of your spread out build are wasted each round. You're just always going to be functioning at 1/3rd capacity with the way you're building right now. If you play in a low-powered campaign, this might work. If the campaign is fairly high-powered with a decent amount of system-mastery expected in character design, this build is really going to run the risk of not being good at anything specific.
Your bow is your arcane bond...which means when you melee you won't be able to even cast spells without dropping, drawing etc. It's going to turn into a technical action economy nightmare.

As I said before, do whatever will be fun to you. But if you're here, it's for advice, so my advice is: Go with something closer to the build outline I posted above, focus on archery and be an absolute damage-hose striker by the mid-high levels, and use your spells for utility/buffing (teleporting, flying, scouting while invisible, disintegrate in case someone tries to use a wall of force, divinations, stone shape to make/break doors when needed, etc.). In combat, you can usually do a ton of damage. Out of combat, you have an answer for almost anything (and should have a decent amount of skill points to help with this as well).

Liberty's Edge

I would focus on Dex>Int=Str for this build. Although many spells that allow saving throws are wizard staples, you won't have enough feats or ability points to really make them work. Buff spells, though, will still work perfectly. As such, I would focus on getting enough intelligence to cast all of the spells you'll ever learn (so an 18 eventually for 8th level spells).

This build will be most powerful if you focus on a few things: Buffing, battlefield control, and archery.

Str 15 (7)
Dex 16+2 (10)
Con 12 (2)
Int 14 (5)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 7 (-4)

The +2 bonus for overcoming SR for being an elf won't matter if you don't take spells that allow SR. Put your first point into strength and then pump dexterity after that and rely on the headband to get you the rest of the way to being able to cast your spells. Prepare spells like Gravity Bow, Haste, Wall of X, and Dispel Magic that do not require a high intelligence score for saving throw DC. Climb the archery tree of feats as fast as you can. I'd advise taking fighter over Cavalier because, honestly, there aren't enough ability points in the world to do melee, spells, AND archery well.

Might as well go 6 levels in wizard for +1 BAB, a few extra free 3rd level spells, and +1 to ALL saving throws.

1) Ftr 1: Point Blank, Precise, Rapid Shot
2) Wiz 1: Scribe Scroll, Arcane Bond (mighty composite longbow)
3) Wiz 2: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4) Wiz 3:
5) Wiz 4: Deadly Aim
6) Wiz 5: Craft Arms/Armor
7) Wiz 6: Arcane Strike
8) EK 1: Improved Initiative
9) EK 2: Manyshot
--The "build" is basically over now. The rest is gravy.--
10)EK 3:
11)EK 4: Weapon Specialization
12)EK 5: Point Blank Master
13)EK 6: Clustered Shots
14)EK 7:
15)EK 8: Improved Precise Shot

etc. etc. You could probably fit 3 levels of AA in there after EK 5 for Imbue Arrow+antimagic field shenanigans, and a free d6, but I'd be careful about your CL.

Some considerations are what you want to do after you hit EK 10. 2 Levels of wizard aren't a bad option if you want to go more casting-oriented. My honest advice, though, for pure damage output, would be to take the Weaponmaster variant of fighter and take 3 levels in it at some point (maybe at levels 10 and 11, or something), then grab Gloves of Dueling.

Gloves of Dueling will be awesome for this guy. +2 to hit and damage, don't drop when stunned/panicked, and you're harder to disarm. Being a fighter AND a wizard with arcane bond, dropping your item is a very, very bad thing. This helps prevent that.


Gloves of Dueling don't do anything unless you take two more fighter levels (and weapon master archetype), but taking two more levels of fighter in this kind of build costs you 9th level spells. I strongly recommend against that.

I'll just post it again:
Lore Warden 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4

As for dropping your item, by the time you're high enough level to take those extra Fighter levels (as Axebeard is suggesting) just invest in a Glove of Storing (so your bow is only out on your turn ever anyway, plus no one realizes you're an archer usually until it's too late), grab yer 9th level spells, and call it a build.


Had a think. Pretty much gonna go with Sylvanites feat progression. Power Attack in place of Imp Initiative. I'll post full progression later.

But gonna go Lore Warden1/Wiz5/EK5/AA4/EK10

Cause I want Imbune Arrow. (For AOE+ Arrow)
With Human
str14
Dex 18
Con12
Int 15 (20)
Wis 10
Cha7

Gonna focus magic on Battle control, Buffs.
Single target offense- Manyshot full attack
Vs lots of Foes- Imbune Arrow blast (I know not the best INT, but hey, Magai can make evocation stick. It's a weak save)

Dude is gonna be a War Wizard.


.

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