Some of us Authors don't want to be paid on a work for hire basis, so writing and self publishing is the only avenue. A publishing company usually hires freelancers on a work-for-hire basis; and those authors give up their precious rights to see their work published. It's not something I like, giving up my rights to the middle man to get my work to the customer.
So, why do you hate third party content from those that self publish? Is there something wrong with those who self publish vs. work for Paizo? (I have nothing against working for Paizo, I just know myself and my circumstances best, and working through a middleman isn't the best move for me right now. If I were content with my circumstances, where I lived, and my fate -- it wouldn't be an issue).
If there is a bar you set, please tell me how to meet it. I must move, and the place I'm moving too requires me to work my own business, since I'd be terrible at herding sheep (I'm moving where people herd sheep for a living, LOL!).
So, I'm going to be successful for as long as we work with money, so I am wondering what makes for an awesome product in your view. IF you want me to work for Paizo for a living, forget it. I don't like Work-for-Hire. Trading something you wrote for $350 might be great for you, but not for me.
The reasons for why I am moving out of Salt Lake City and to a valley where they herd sheep for a living may seem stupid and crazy, but I happen to love my head on my shoulders.
So, some Market Research questions:
1 -- What are your criteria to purchase 3rd Party Content?
2 -- When you purchase a Paizo product what are your main reasons for purchasing Paizo?
*** Company Loyalty?
*** Good Editing?
*** Good Writing?
*** Art?
*** How do you define the word "Quality" when it comes to OGL products (Paizo is technically OGL)?
3 -- When you purchase a Pathfinder 3rd Party Product what drove you to purchase that product?
*** Art?
*** Idea?
*** What is it you look for in a 3rd Party Product? Traditionalism ( A product that is easy to integrate)? Radicalism (A new rule subsystem [A.K.A. advanced d20 magic]? Stellar Art? Stellar editing? Stellar writing?
Answer these questions and I'll do my best to meet and exceed your expectations.
This should probably be in the Compatible Products forum.
As a 3PP I will just say there is more to this RPG business, A LOT MORE, then just writing good or even GREAT material. If you really want to learn about the 3PP market I would suggest working with or teaming up with a 3PP on products you want to publisher. At LPJ Design, I have several writers and artists that I work with and take a percentage (anywhere from 10% to 32.5%) and they control all the right to their work. It just depends on the deal you make with the 3PP you want to work with.
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Quality products are a key. That means good writing and few editing errors. Sure all products even paizo will have a few here and there. But have a lot of them and or to the point it is hard to understand what the author meant is huge turn off's to buying more from that company/person.
It is better to have few but decent art or even no art than bad art in a product. Good layout is important. If it is done well no one notices but if it is laid out poorly trust me everyone notices and it makes the product harder to read and use.
Doing something new or a new spin on a old idea. For example a lot has been done for the base classes, treading over the same ground as others decreases your sales. Unless you put a new spin on it. If you want to do a book of rogue talents then look at what Paizo has done and all the other 3pp and don't make one that is more or less the same as someone else.
Drum up interest in your product. I mean no one is going to buy it if they don't know it exist and just posting it up for sale is not letting people know. Make sure people not only know you have stuff for sale but exactly what is for sale. A lot of companies give away small previews just for that reason or list information in the forums etc. To drum up interest in their products.
Personally when I buy a book i buy it from 2 major standpoints
1. How much content
2. HOw useful the contnet
3. How nice the content looks/ how easily used
1. Obviously if its a small tiny booklet with a class or two in it im not going to take time to order it or even give it a second glance. I even have a hard time looking over 20 pagers. I like having a lot of usable content in one book.
2. The content has to be useful to mutliple types of campaigns/themes. Even making your own campaign is a good idea as long as it has plenty of things to flesh out. Also if it's GM and Player friendly it is a major plus!
3. Really how nice the book looks/how well its bound and how well it'll hold up means a lot to people because people wat a strong hardy book.
ALso being able to find tables and how well everything is set up and how well it flows means a lot. ALSO if you can make the book actually fun to read it is a major plus but having basic stats is ok for some people.
So, some Market Research Answers:
1 -- What are your criteria to purchase 3rd Party Content?
I must see a need for it in the games I am currently playing. If it isn't adding something, something I either had not thought of myself or improving what I already house rule -- why bother?
2 -- When you purchase a Paizo product what are your main reasons for purchasing Paizo?
*** Company Loyalty?
Matters, a little. I prefer Paizo to others but they won that loyalty by having stellar products and offer them at an acceptable price.
*** Good Editing?
Not a reason, a requirement. Would you purchase a book with crap editing?
*** Good Writing?
Here's the rub -- what qualifies as "good" subjectively changes. Good enough, from Paizo, and it becomes law with the players I run with. Good enough from a 3rd party? Well... can we not think of something better ourselves? Great writing though wins the day...
*** Art?
Helps, but can't sell a book with bad mechanics and writing. Terrible art can turn me off from a purchase, but great mechanics and writing can overrule crap art.
*** How do you define the word "Quality" when it comes to OGL products (Paizo is technically OGL)?
Integration into the larger (Paizo) ruleset is key. Your 3rd party material is generally going to be at best an add on or substitution. If those additions and substitutions break the core gameplay, then I can't use it. If its good enough to stand all on its own then am I really talking 3rd party to Paizo? Maybe its a whole new game with similar ruleset, etc.
3 -- When you purchase a Pathfinder 3rd Party Product what drove you to purchase that product? (I purchased more 3rd party D&D 3.5 than Pathfinder so far, so my answers reflect that)
*** Art?
Not by itself.
*** Idea?
Important. The books I bought outright were the ones that within the first 2 minutes intrigued me so much I felt I needed to get it now and bring it home to dive in deeper rather than just skim and be inspired to make a better example for my own use.
*** What is it you look for in a 3rd Party Product?...
Quality :-P That's a vague answer, but really its a matter of quality for my price. I'll shell out $100 if the book has awesome art, produced on high quality paper, bound in leather or at least hardbacked AND it has amazing rules and ideas within. I wont even pay a $1 for a download that I'll regret once I've read through it and realized what I just purchased is fundamentally broken.
As a more general comment, not covered by your limited scope of questions:
The book needs to give me something, something I need, something I want, something I may not even realize I cared about before. It doesn't need to be a big name company for me to want it, if it meets my needs. What are my needs? That's tough to answer --- especially since you can't go through all that trouble JUST for me... but I'm likely not the only person looking for a better X, Y or Z.
As I live in the UK, a major consideration is postage for hard copy. I can buy Paizo from Amazon.co.uk without having to worry about it. I find reading pdfs on a PC inconvenient a lot of the time so prefer printed (and haven't found a suitable print shop yet).
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Good layout, formatting, editing and organization of the book you aim to publish are not bonus items, they could ruin even the best writing and are REQUIREMENTS.
I've reviewed plenty of good adventures, sourcebooks etc. that have been utterly RUINED by even one of the above being screwed up. If you want a prime example, Corvus Lunaris' Set in Stone adventure would be nice, but disregarded all of this.
I'd echo DM with regards to art: Best option: Good art. If that's not available, go for none instead of bad art. Even more important, at least to me, is a good LAYOUT. Once again Corvus Lunaris - wide margins, lines very far apart, wasted paper. Good examples of great artwork & layout: LPJr Design, Zombie Sky Press and Fire Mountain Games.
I'd also add: Cartography is NOT optional. I've reviewed several cartography-less pdfs and I won't buy any module without maps. I can't draw. If I want badly drawn maps, I can run my own modules.
Brand loyalty has to be earned and some 3pps have, by providing time and again quality content earned it. Nothing you can start with, mainly because there's the warning example of Sinister Adventures. Publishing is not only about writing - if it was, we'd all have Razor Coast, Ebon Shroud etc. Do not underestimate the work that goes beyond writing and don't expect people to jump right aboard ship! Product upkeep is also important: If you screw up (and that can happen to the best company/author), correct the glitches - that way, you show that you care about your customers.
Know your niche: If you want to do old-school gaming for example, check out what Frog God Games has to offer. If you want to do monsters, check out monster books, both big and small, out.
Also, know your prices: If e.g. 0onegames produce good, short modules with original art and cartography, don't make worse ones for thrice the price.
If you want prime examples on what NOT to do, I suggest Alvena or A.G.E.S.
If you want to see how to do it, I'd suggest the big 3, Rite Publishing, Open Design and Super Genius Games. They are where they are right now for a reason.
In the end, it comes down to quality without ruining yourself. Alluria is a sad example for a company that has produced one of the best books out there and suffers from a hiatus right now. Quality is king and when balanced with budget, in the end will prevail.
My 2 cents, mind you.
I'm listening.
:)
... Even more important, at least to me, is a good LAYOUT. ... Good examples of great artwork & layout: ... Fire Mountain Games.
Hey, thanks for the kind words!
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
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I do not hate Third Party Content, but there is a lot more product I am not interested in. Also, I am not likely your target audience: I do not play Pathfinder. I look for fluff. Good fluff to me is something that has not been done a million times and something that gets my creative juices going.
I'm not sure how much this will help but I'll chime in.
2) Is it cheap? I'm not interested in paying 20+ dollars for a pdf. 10+ isn't bad if its something roughly the size of the core rule book or the bestiaries, but generally, I prefer the 2 - 3 dollar range.
End the Federal Reserve and get us back to $10 pays for a week of groceries and $100 dollar mortgage payments, and I'll be happy to provide you 16 to 32 page pdfs at 2 to 3 dollars with $200 dollar quality. :)
Be a little realistic -- we aren't living in the '50s, but the 2010s. RPGs are luxury items. If you are expecting 2-3 dollar pdfs, expect OGL crap. Cheap does not always mean high quality, but it often does mean crap. Crappy art, crappy writing, crappy game mechanics, crappy editing.
Some of the stuff I worked on after Atlas Games was crap. I worked on an Egyptian supplement, and while I enjoyed it, it was crappy (and pretty much lost faith in my capability after that). If you want to pay 2 to 3 dollars for a .pdf then you will get a 2 to 3 dollar job. IF you want high quality pdfs that Dark Mistress and other reviewers like you've got to bleed a little more for them.
If you want cheap, but good quality products, then 2-3 dollars won't cut it consistently. I can't afford to give you a top quality product for that low of a price -and- earn a profit. However, if you are that stingy, I can provide a stingy gamer edition (no art, no map.) Although there is another way I can provide you with 2-3 dollar pdfs with top quality art.
Lobby Washington to pass a law that will make all culture made after 1923 and before the year 2000 pass into the Public Domain. There are many movies that hollywood has made that I can get top quality film scans. The Adventures of Robin Hood (Errol Flynn) is surprisingly very accurate for 13th Century England. If the Copyright on that film were to expire by Law, and the film were to enter the public domain . . . Upfront costs for Top Quality Art will totally drop.
Some of us Authors don't want to be paid on a work for hire basis, so writing and self publishing is the only avenue. A publishing company usually hires freelancers on a work-for-hire basis; and those authors give up their precious rights to see their work published. It's not something I like, giving up my rights to the middle man to get my work to the customer.
So, why do you hate third party content from those that self publish? Is there something wrong with those who self publish vs. work for Paizo? (I have nothing against working for Paizo, I just know myself and my circumstances best, and working through a middleman isn't the best move for me right now. If I were content with my circumstances, where I lived, and my fate -- it wouldn't be an issue).
The Monte Cooks, the Ed Greenwoods, even the Gary Gaygax and Dave Arnesons in this world had to give up something to get themselves published. That's just a fact of the buisness.
You don't have to anymore. The World's most perfect copy machine, made up of a chaotic network of millions of computers, has made it possible to start publishing yourself at near zero cost.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It also depends on why the person writes. While I'm not a company* I put stuff up to get critiques (could use more) and for my entertainment. It also allows me to fill holes I think need filled and honor my partner.
Oh, and as to 'cheep PDFs equal crap' I produce mine on MS Word, and put them on Google docs for Download for free. Take it what you will :P
Product Loyalty
This ties in with price. I'm more likely to kick in on a Open Design project than I am, "Bob's big book of stuff." It's a paradox, I know. To get my money sight unseen you have to have a record, to have a record you have to have money sight unseen.**
Rite Publishing and SGG are two examples of products I'll be interested in.*** Both because I've met Steve, and because I've been able to get stuff fairly cheep through DaD. Else I'll be looking for niches to fill. Dreamscarred gets my money because of wanting psionics, and because of the Mind's Eye.
Art is nice, but not as much as fluff. I got Litorans because Donna loved Hugo's work, and she wanted a dead tree copy. Unfortunately she never got to see it. I can't draw (Rich Burlew is Rembrant compared to my work) so unless I get volunteers, I won't get art in my products.**** But mostly it's mechanics I want, or characters.
Edit: Dale and Enzgeist said it better than I did on price != quality.
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If you are expecting 2-3 dollar pdfs, expect OGL crap.
That is insulting. Super Genius Games do it. 0onegames do it. Rite Publishing do it. Hell, even OD's advanced Feat and Divine Favor-lines are cheap. They don't produce OGL-crap.
Hell, Frog God Games have awesome adventures for 5 bucks, even with original artworks, proving that it is possible to provide affordable quality! No-one expects a 200-page files of the highest quality for 3 bucks, but know what others provide: Fire Mountain Games set a precedent for 100 pages in full color with stunning artwork at 10 bucks. Breaking of Forstor Nagar etc. are in similar price areas.
What I'm trying to say, is that while I pay A LOT of money for patronages, kickstarters etc. by designers and companies I know, I won't e.g. buy Roleplaying Tips Games "Assassin's Amulet", in spite of it being by good guys - it's too expensive. Or take "Shards of the Heart" - good file for 5 bucks, but for 15? Price =/= Quality, unfortunately.
If you are expecting 2-3 dollar pdfs, expect OGL crap. Cheap does not always mean high quality, but it often does mean crap. Crappy art, crappy writing, crappy game mechanics, crappy editing.
You gotta know the market. Super Genius pretty much set the standard by releasing 10-12 page PDFs for $3 and released 1 every week. With Paizo selling their hardcovers (including the 500+ page core book) for $10 each, there's got to be a reason to pay more than $10 for a PDF.
I can't draw (Rich Burlew is Rembrant compared to my work) so unless I get volunteers, I won't get art in my products.**** But mostly it's mechanics I want, or characters.
Can you take pictures reasonably well?
Dale, good of you to chime in! Further proof of my point, your Book of Beasts: Monsters of The River Nations - $5. For a STELLAR monster book.
Quality at a more than affordable price.
Dale, good of you to chime in! Further proof of my point, your Book of Beasts: Monsters of The River Nations - $5. For a STELLAR monster book.
Quality at a more than affordable price.
If 0One has released a sales report online, I might believe you that is possible to make a profit the "Steal Back My Work from My Customer by telling him not to copy or creative derivative works or be sued" way.
However, if I put up my work -- trust that my customers who will buy will share my work and create derivatives (I want *YOU* to create derivatives of my work -- that's the primary reason why I want to publish -- I WANT MY STUFF TO BE COPIED AND USED! THATS HOW IT LIVES!), i can put it up for $3.50 through Misfit Games. with the right low cost marketing plan, I bet i can sell 1,000 units.
If I upload the .pdf for pay through Misfit to Paizo, OneBookShelf, and e23; and share on Rapidshare and/or Media Share -- then ask for a donation equalling about $3 dollars from those that it's shared from . . . I can probably get enough to pay for moving costs and other things.
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The immediate impression that self-publishing gives is "my work isn't good enough that someone else was willing to represent it." In RPG Land, that's doubly damning because there's already an enormous quality divide between the Big Name Publishers (Paizo, White Wolf, et al) and the third-party publishers.
If you don't rate inclusion in a 3PP product, why would I waste my $3 on your PDF? Charging more than $5 is just hubris and setting yourself up to fail. Take a look at what other publishers offer, look at the quality of your art, layout, and writing, and price your product honestly. I bet it comes out right about $3.
If you honestly believe that your precious words are too good to "give up [your] precious rights" to see in the hands of customers, you're grossly overvaluing your product. A reputable 3PP will let you retain your rights and give you much-needed exposure to the community. It also helps legitimize your product in the eyes of gamers by marking you as least as good as your publisher.
I put a sales report of the previous Book of Beasts: Link
I bet i can sell 1,000 units.
Outdated number. Few books sell 1000 copies anymore unless your name is Paizo. I know of two 3pp Pathfinder books that sold more than 1000 copies. Tome of Horrors Complete and Book of the River Nations: Complete Players' Reference to Kingdom Building. I wouldn't be surprised if Psionics Unleashed sold of 1000 copies as well, but I don't know for sure. There might be one or two more, but they are only 1 or 2.
200-300 is a smash hit these days. 50 is more realistic.
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To the original poster of this thread: I said this in the other thread you recently started but I think it's worth repeating here as well:
Your posts are kind of ... I don't know ... odd. The tone is very self-serving and almost antagonistic in a strange way ...
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but if you want to try and break into the Pathfinder 3PP market in a successful and meaningful way, I'm not sure the tact you are taking is doing you any favors ...
If 0One has released a sales report online, I might believe you that is possible to make a profit the "Steal Back My Work from My Customer by telling him not to copy or creative derivative works or be sued" way.
I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you implying they are doing this as a non-profit or that they're cheating their customers? Oo What about SGG and Rite? I know Rite Publishing is a day-job for its mastermind, so yeah, you can make a profit.
I do believe that you may be a good designer, though I haven't read anything from you and own A LOT of 3.X-books and pdfs, but I'm somewhat getting the feeling that you've been burned and/or have unreasonable expectations. While I'm certainly no benchmark, you're
Ben MacFarland, Richard Pett, Tim Hitchcock, Jonathan McAnulty, T.H. Gulliver, the Connors, Lou Agesta etc. are upcoming names that are big in 3pp PFRPG and they are not as..how can I put it? Negative.
I'm not sure who or what burned you so bad, but right now, you're not coming over as constructive. I get the impression that you seem to be using an aggressive rhetoric because you can't contradict evidence I've provided that belies your statement that you can't base a business model on cheap pdfs. If you think your work is worth more, than say so! ;)
ninja'd by Marc. Word.
I am detecting some bitterness too. I am sorry you are not making what you think your effort is worth. I am sure a lot of people feel the same way.
If 0One has released a sales report online, I might believe you that is possible to make a profit the "Steal Back My Work from My Customer by telling him not to copy or creative derivative works or be sued" way.I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you implying they are doing this as a non-profit or that they're cheating their customers? Oo What about SGG and Rite? I know Rite Publishing is a day-job for its mastermind, so yeah, you can make a profit.
I do believe that you may be a good designer, though I haven't read anything from you and own A LOT of 3.X-books and pdfs, but I'm somewhat getting the feeling that you've been burned and/or have unreasonable expectations.
Not unreasonable. Just doing some research.
I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you implying they are doing this as a non-profit or that they're cheating their customers?
Every publisher who writes on their first page that you can't do derivative works without prior permission is cheating their customers. Pure and simple. We have the most powerful copying machine on the Planet now, and there is no possible way you can enforce your monopoly without censoring it.
I am detecting some bitterness too. I am sorry you are not making what you think your effort is worth. I am sure a lot of people feel the same way.
I am bitter about current Copyright Law, CourtFool.
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Outdated number. Few books sell 1000 copies anymore unless your name is Paizo. I know of two 3pp Pathfinder books that sold more than 1000 copies. Tome of Horrors Complete and Book of the River Nations: Complete Players' Reference to Kingdom Building. I wouldn't be surprised if Psionics Unleashed sold of 1000 copies as well, but I don't know for sure. There might be one or two more, but they are only 1 or 2.
200-300 is a smash hit these days. 50 is more realistic.
It has. None of our other books have, although Psionics Expanded is into the several hundred sold range (for the subscription / preorder, not counting individual parts sold) and we still have two parts to go and print, so I'm expecting it will probably surpass 1000 when it's done.
But I agree, 200-300 is the benchmark for a great sales performance. 100 is where I consider to be "break-even".
The immediate impression that self-publishing gives is "my work isn't good enough that someone else was willing to represent it." In RPG Land, that's doubly damning because there's already an enormous quality divide between the Big Name Publishers (Paizo, White Wolf, et al) and the third-party publishers.
If you don't rate inclusion in a 3PP product, why would I waste my $3 on your PDF?
This is a much more complicated question then you realize. And it all doesn't come down to hubris. Sometimes it comes down to the needs of the 3pp business versus the desires of the writer in question. A writer might present an absolutely great idea, but that idea might still get shelved or denied purely because it might undermine another project. Now before the natural response is "Well if it's so great why would the deny it?" comes out let me cut you off by saying that from a business perspective "great" means "selling". They want all of their projects to sell well. But if they feel that a project will water down or contradict a product they already have they won't bother publishing it.
This is particularly true when it comes to setting material.
Now this does not mean that the item in question is not genuinely bad or that the writer is not arrogant. I just think that such a broad assessment oversimplifies what can be a difficult process.
I am bitter about current Copyright Law, CourtFool.
I could empathize with that, but it is not where your thread started. Perhaps a step back and analysis of what the real issues are is in order.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is a much more complicated question then you realize. And it all doesn't come down to hubris. Sometimes it comes down to the needs of the 3pp business versus the desires of the writer in question. <SNIP>The immediate impression that self-publishing gives is "my work isn't good enough that someone else was willing to represent it." In RPG Land, that's doubly damning because there's already an enormous quality divide between the Big Name Publishers (Paizo, White Wolf, et al) and the third-party publishers.
If you don't rate inclusion in a 3PP product, why would I waste my $3 on your PDF?
There's also sometimes the abilities of the writer in question come to mind. Yeah, I sound arrogant saying it, sorry, but those tags after my name show that I have the ability to write magic items. But with my, um, sporatic, writing abilities, I'd not pitch a prospect to anyone unless I had it mostly or completely finished. I'd not want to pitch 'a dozen aquatic items' to Wolfgang or James unless I had them done, because if my muse flees while working, I'm done.* I'm *not* a good contract writer. So I put my own stuff out there, and encourage anyone who uses it to tell me and provide feedback (thanks Cheapy!).
I won't speak for the businessmen here, but I write for fun, and a little of ego, I'll admit. I think 3pp is a job you have to love, and not be in it for the money.
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This is a much more complicated question then you realize. And it all doesn't come down to hubris. Sometimes it comes down to the needs of the 3pp business versus the desires of the writer in question. <SNIP>The immediate impression that self-publishing gives is "my work isn't good enough that someone else was willing to represent it." In RPG Land, that's doubly damning because there's already an enormous quality divide between the Big Name Publishers (Paizo, White Wolf, et al) and the third-party publishers.
If you don't rate inclusion in a 3PP product, why would I waste my $3 on your PDF?
There's also sometimes the abilities of the writer in question come to mind. Yeah, I sound arrogant saying it, sorry, but those tags after my name show that I have the ability to write magic items. But with my, um, sporatic, writing abilities, I'd not pitch a prospect to anyone unless I had it mostly or completely finished. I'd not want to pitch 'a dozen aquatic items' to Wolfgang or James unless I had them done, because if my muse flees while working, I'm done.* I'm *not* a good contract writer. So I put my own stuff out there, and encourage anyone who uses it to tell me and provide feedback (thanks Cheapy!).
I won't speak for the businessmen here, but I write for fun, and a little of ego, I'll admit. I think 3pp is a job you have to love, and not be in it for the money.
*** spoiler omitted **
There's that too.
I don't think I've ever had an idea rejected yet that I would turn around and self publish. Well there' one but I've not gotten around to bothering with it. I know for certain I have no plans or desires to charge more than 2$ for it. In the end I likely won't do it at all.
Ultimately I think that unless you plan ons tarting your own company you ahve to be willing to work within other peoples vision and seek to expand your branch out from it in your own way. I feel that in nearly everythin I've worked on I've done that. And some writers in paizo (particularly Richard Pett's distinctive work) have done so as well. I think the point is not trying to enforce your vision on someone else but willing to direct someone else's vision to work for you. That's something of an under appreciated skill.
And yes Cheapy is very much a bro when it comes to feedback.
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I'm listening.
Elton, I am not sure what exactly you are looking for in this thread, but I am going to assume you want to publisher 3PP material and get it out there to the masses. I've had the pleasure of releasing PDFs for over a decade and have done very well for myself over that time. If you are serious of exposing people to your work, I would suggest you act and perform the same way YOU would like a publisher to act to you.
It's really simple: If LPJ Design treated and/or spoke to you that same way you have to others , would you purchase LPJ Design's product?
Hope this helps.
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(Rich Burlew is Rembrant compared to my work)
I'd just like to point out for the record: Rich Burlew is actually a very, very talented illustrator. He *chooses* to use stick figures for his comic. And he uses that medium very, very well.
If you want to see how well he does so, I encourage you to draw a series of stick figures doing the following:
Being sad
Being angry
Sleeping
Fighting
Once you've done that, then tell me what Rich does is easy.
Edit: if you want a cheat sheet for my above challenge, see this guide by the amazing Tracy Butler: http://tracyjb.deviantart.com/art/Lackadaisy-Expressions-193978013
Ben MacFarland, Richard Pett, Tim Hitchcock, Jonathan McAnulty, T.H. Gulliver, the Connors, Lou Agesta etc. are upcoming names that are big in 3pp PFRPG and they are not as..how can I put it? Negative.
You put me in very good company, sir, thank you very much.
-Ben.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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(Rich Burlew is Rembrandt compared to my work)I'd just like to point out for the record: Rich Burlew is actually a very, very talented illustrator. He *chooses* to use stick figures for his comic. And he uses that medium very, very well.
If you want to see how well he does so, I encourage you to draw a series of stick figures doing the following:
Being sad
Being angry
Sleeping
FightingOnce you've done that, then tell me what Rich does is easy.
Edit: if you want a cheat sheet for my above challenge, see this guide by the amazing Tracy Butler: http://tracyjb.deviantart.com/art/Lackadaisy-Expressions-193978013
Honestly? I didn't know he was an illustrator. I was saying that his 'mere stick figures' are as far above my meager skills as Rembrandt was above stick figures. I wasn't trying to belittle his work.
Rich's stick figures just make an easy comparison for how bad I am. I can't even do stick figures.
Ben MacFarland, Richard Pett, Tim Hitchcock, Jonathan McAnulty, T.H. Gulliver, the Connors, Lou Agesta etc. are upcoming names that are big in 3pp PFRPG and they are not as..how can I put it? Negative.
You put me in very good company, sir, thank you very much.
-Ben.
Nice list there! And very true.
Outdated number. Few books sell 1000 copies anymore unless your name is Paizo. I know of two 3pp Pathfinder books that sold more than 1000 copies. Tome of Horrors Complete and Book of the River Nations: Complete Players' Reference to Kingdom Building. I wouldn't be surprised if Psionics Unleashed sold of 1000 copies as well, but I don't know for sure. There might be one or two more, but they are only 1 or 2.
200-300 is a smash hit these days. 50 is more realistic.
It has. None of our other books have, although Psionics Expanded is into the several hundred sold range (for the subscription / preorder, not counting individual parts sold) and we still have two parts to go and print, so I'm expecting it will probably surpass 1000 when it's done.
But I agree, 200-300 is the benchmark for a great sales performance. 100 is where I consider to be "break-even".
From the FWIW dept., I'll be one of probably quite a few folks who will buy PE once it's complete, if for no other reason than to support one of my favorite publishers. I finally broke down and bought PU just for that reason (even though all the "meat" seems to be on the SRD).
I'm listening.Elton, I am not sure what exactly you are looking for in this thread, but I am going to assume you want to publisher 3PP material and get it out there to the masses. I've had the pleasure of releasing PDFs for over a decade and have done very well for myself over that time. If you are serious of exposing people to your work, I would suggest you act and perform the same way YOU would like a publisher to act to you.
It's really simple: If LPJ Design treated and/or spoke to you that same way you have to others , would you purchase LPJ Design's product?
Hope this helps.
At the risk of sounding like I'm detracting from what you're saying (which I agree very much with), the nitpick in me wants to point out that Elton isn't stuck with the name "Elton" for advertising published material.
10 bucks says he's really Siembieda in disguise.
SPEAKING OF... If RIFTS were ever made into a d20 product, I'd be all over it like brass-o on a glitter boy. Kev, are you listening?
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I put a sales report of the previous Book of Beasts: Link
I bet i can sell 1,000 units.Outdated number. Few books sell 1000 copies anymore unless your name is Paizo. I know of two 3pp Pathfinder books that sold more than 1000 copies. Tome of Horrors Complete and Book of the River Nations: Complete Players' Reference to Kingdom Building. I wouldn't be surprised if Psionics Unleashed sold of 1000 copies as well, but I don't know for sure. There might be one or two more, but they are only 1 or 2.
200-300 is a smash hit these days. 50 is more realistic.
I am by no means at liberty to talk about sales numbers of anyone. However, I'm going to say that Dale knows what he is talking about (in many ways). You should listen closely to what he has to say here.
There are several things to comment on...
I freelance. I kicked around the idea of starting my own company way back when..and in retrospect, I am SO glad we didn't. I wouldn't have been able to get half of what I have done out there, if I was doing it myself, and the quality would not have been as far as art, layout, etc. I don't mind work for hire, simply because I don't NEED exclusive rights to my work. It is OGL..if someone wants to use it in something that falls under the license, thats great. If I want to write something based around something I created, I use that same publisher, or get permission..as long as the company gets credit, its usually fine. I am not going to get rich off of keeping exclusive rights, and honestly would rather see someone else use something I made.
Prices are a bit deceptive. When I am 100% sure what I am getting is high quality, I will pay..although its rare that I break the 15$ mark. A 2-5$ pdf from a company I know is a sure thing. Rite, SGG, etc..because it is an AMAZING deal for the price. The advantage to smaller, cheaper pdfs is that chronically broke gamers can afford them, often, and they can be pumped out fairly fast without loss of quality. Alluria produced beautiful pdfs that cost as much as a hard bound book..so their sales were tepid. SGG makes smaller pdfs at a fraction of the price..and they have a legion of people that prepay sight unseen, both because of price and quality.
To buy something..I look for ideas that are unique, with a blurb that grabs me. Dreadfox games is a good example..cheap, unusual stuff..not perfect..I monkey wrench their classes a bit..but the ideas are great.If there are spelling errors in your blurb, its an instant rejection..spell check, then edit, then have someone else edit, and then another person edit..and you will still miss things..but they won't be glaring. I look at reviews. And I ask..would I use it, as a GM..and a player. There have been very few duds in what I have bought.
I used to buy books based on art..poor art pushed me away. Until I got into design, and saw the cost of the art..if you can get it great..but in the end is the ideas.
oh yes..
When you purchase a Paizo product what are your main reasons for purchasing Paizo..it comes down, again to use. I don't buy every guide/book/product they make. I buy what will be useful to me..and some that I just want to enjoy reading the fluff. I like Paizo, and how they work, so I could say company loyalty as well..but I buy a lot of other game systems as well
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Where to begin..? I think a lot of the other posters replied very well, though I would like to expand on a couple areas.
A lot of people don't like to buy 3PP because they remember the glut of poorly written and completely imbalanced products that were out there. Today's market of 3PP material is being written by a lot of the old hands of gaming, former employees of popular RPG companies and self made superstars. Our company has over 150 years of combined gamer XP behind it and two of our writers are incognito RPG Superstars.
Anyone can enter the business and publish their work. But, is that sustainable? Do you have the passion and creativity needed to get by? Do you have the temperament to take feedback and continually up your game? Do you understand the business enough to make tough decisions about your products and be able to make a profit?
It seems that people fear the crunch of the 3pp's material breaking their games. We write a lot of supplements that are based on adding flavor to a GM's game. Our newest Infamous Adversary packs in at 30 pages, and provides a lot of resource material plus Hero Lab content for a mere $2.99. Add to that the fact that we've improved our layout drasticaly and use original art, and you can't go wrong for that price.
Based on the above numbers, we have several big hits, so the audience is out there, but it is hard to gain awareness. In fact, anyone who wants to try our latest book should do so, and if for some reason you aren't impressed, I'll personally refund your money.
If you are expecting 2-3 dollar pdfs, expect OGL crap.That is insulting. Super Genius Games do it. 0onegames do it. Rite Publishing do it. Hell, even OD's advanced Feat and Divine Favor-lines are cheap. They don't produce OGL-crap.
Hell, Frog God Games have awesome adventures for 5 bucks, even with original artworks, proving that it is possible to provide affordable quality! No-one expects a 200-page files of the highest quality for 3 bucks, but know what others provide: Fire Mountain Games set a precedent for 100 pages in full color with stunning artwork at 10 bucks. Breaking of Forstor Nagar etc. are in similar price areas.
What I'm trying to say, is that while I pay A LOT of money for patronages, kickstarters etc. by designers and companies I know, I won't e.g. buy Roleplaying Tips Games "Assassin's Amulet", in spite of it being by good guys - it's too expensive. Or take "Shards of the Heart" - good file for 5 bucks, but for 15? Price =/= Quality, unfortunately.
You beat me to the punch, not only that, but because SGG has put out high quality low price stuff I would pay more for a bigger book if they put one out because I feel like I can gamble on them.
In short, part of how much you can charge depends on your reputation. I plan on putting out some things late this year or early next year. 1 or 2 will be free. The reasoning is to get my name out, and to see the people's reaction to my product, which will allow me to adjust things before my other stuff gets published.
PS:A lot of freelancers do this as a second source of income since RPG writing does not pay well for most people. If you are doing it as a primary job then you need to up your name value so you be allowed to charge more by the customer.
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If you are expecting 2-3 dollar pdfs, expect OGL crap.4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
EN Publishing
Jon Brazer Enterprises
Open Design
Purple Duck Games
Raging Swan Press
Rite Publishing
Super Genius Games
Tricky Owlbear Publishing
I have purchased 2-3 dollar PDF's from each and all of these companies, and come away with quality, well-done material.
Needless to say, I disagree with you. Others have made the remainder of my argument for me upthread. I will (and have) paid up to $20 for longer, quality PDFs, but your above statement is manifestly untrue.
As for what I look for in 3pp product, here are a few things that are important to me, in priority order:
1. Idea - Even if I can't use it in my game immediately, I will shell out ducats on a really cool idea, just for the entertainment value of reading about it. Good fluff is really important.
2. Accurate crunch editing - I'm not extremely proficient in this department, so it's especially important that you be.
3. Layout - I stopped to notice several product that I eventually purchased because the sample or title page just looked cool.
4. Language editing - I can forgive some typos or goofs, but if it reaches a point where I'm notice I'm slowing down to try and figure out what you're saying, you're in trouble.
5. Art - I'm not finicky about art. It doesn't have to be museum quality or full color, just make sure it's not something I would mistake for that thing my 3-year-old just hung on the fridge.