Vital Strike, Power Attack and Charge (Oh My!)


Rules Questions


Hi All,
I'm building a fighter and was wondering. If I'm attacking with a Vital Strike can I also make that a Power Attack to get an extra bit of damage in. I was also wondering if I can use Vital Strike as Part of a Charge, and if so if I can once again stack Power Attack on top of it? If so that seems like a pretty mean combo to use on a target that is with in charge range. Thanks All!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Power Attack-Vital Strike
So yes
As part of a charge? No. Vital Strike is a standard action and a Charge is a Full Round Action.

Grand Lodge

Vital strike + power attack = yes
Vital strike + charge = no.

Scarab Sages

Look at it like this:

Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively are modes that affect every single attack (iterative attacks, AoO's, etc.) in your round.

Vital Strike is a standard action attack. Refers to attack action, defined in actions as a standard i

Charge is a full round action attack. ii

So, by breaking it down, PA can be added to VS or Charge, since both are attack actions. VS cannot be added to a Charge, though, since a Charge is an FRA while VS is a Standard.


So you could Charge + Power Attack? Also what is the damage shake down if your vital strike lands a crit?

Scarab Sages

Xallin wrote:
So you could Charge + Power Attack?

yes, just like you could PA with a regular full round attack.


Yep. You could even Charge with both Combat Expertise and Power Attack... Although good luck hitting with both of those active at once.

Scarab Sages

Bobson wrote:
Yep. You could even Charge with both Combat Expertise and Power Attack... Although good luck hitting with both of those active at once.

You can even add fighting defensively on to that for yet another -2.


archmagi1 wrote:
Bobson wrote:
Yep. You could even Charge with both Combat Expertise and Power Attack... Although good luck hitting with both of those active at once.
You can even add fighting defensively on to that for yet another -2.

I'm pretty sure you can't use Expertise and fighting defensively together, but I didn't double check it, and I've been wrong before.


EnlargedLuckyFavoredenemyFavoredterrainCockatriceMutagenRageLanceFlurryPoun ceSneakattackSpellstrikePowerattack with Weapon Training!


Alright, one last question. If I crit with a power attack, is the power attack damage multiplied, and if I crit with a vital strike how does that work? Would you roll normal crit damage with an extra ,forgive my 4e slang, 1[W]damage tacked on at the end?

Scarab Sages

for vital strike, its in the text: Vital Strike

power attack should multiply since it is a fixed bonus, not dice.

Liberty's Edge

Bobson wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:
Bobson wrote:
Yep. You could even Charge with both Combat Expertise and Power Attack... Although good luck hitting with both of those active at once.
You can even add fighting defensively on to that for yet another -2.
I'm pretty sure you can't use Expertise and fighting defensively together, but I didn't double check it, and I've been wrong before.

Nothing prevents you from using both AFAIK.


Xallin wrote:
Alright, one last question. If I crit with a power attack, is the power attack damage multiplied, and if I crit with a vital strike how does that work? Would you roll normal crit damage with an extra ,forgive my 4e slang, 1[W]damage tacked on at the end?

On a crit, damage from Power Attack is multiplied, while damage from Vital Strike, sneak attack, weapon energy dice, and the like are not.

Example: Str 18, using a +1 flaming scythe. (with a crit of 20 / x4)

Normal Damage is 2d4, +6 for Str (two-handed weapon) +1, so 2d4+7 +1d6 fire.
Three points of Power Attack yield +9 oomph, so 2d4+16 +1d6 fire

With Vital Strike, you're at 2d4+7 +2d4 +1d6 fire, or 2d4+16 +2d4 +1d6 fire with Power Attack.

Critting will multiply the weapon damage, including fixed-number damage bonuses, leaving any dice-type bonuses alone, yielding:
8d4+28 +1d6 fire, or
8d4+64 +1d6 fire with Power Attack, or
8d4+28 +2d4 +1d6 fire with Vital Strike, or
8d4+64 +2d4 +1d6 fire with both.


Bobson wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can't use Expertise and fighting defensively together, but I didn't double check it, and I've been wrong before.

You may be thinking of Total Defense: "You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat."

There's nothing I can find that says Combat Expertise doesn't work with Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action/Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action.


Ok what about power attack vital and overhand chop from the the two handed fighter does all that stack


Let's take a look.

Power Attack: "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn." No seperate action stated. PA is independent of everything else you do this turn.

Vital Strike: "When you use the attack action, (...)" That's a triggered ability. You declare you use the attack action, and then you can use Vital Strike to modify your damage roll.

Overhand Chop: "when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, (...)" That's also a triggered ability. You declare you use either the attack action or the charge action and then you apply a higher strength modifier on the damage roll if you meet the condition.

Power Attack can be used with anything, so that's save. Vital Strike and Overhand Chop both only modify an existing action, (and different enough parts of that to not have some interaction issues).
Conclusion: Yes, it all stacks if you use the attack action. Power Attack + Overhand Chop stack on a charge, but you can't use Vital Strike in that case.

On a side note, conditions/requirements are generally inclusive in Pathfinder, and thus the 2xStr modifier still qualifies for Power Attacks 3:1 ratio.

Making a new thread would have been better than reviving a seven-year-old thread, by the way.

Liberty's Edge

Derklord wrote:


Making a new thread would have been better than reviving a seven-year-old thread, by the way.

True, but it isn't today record. Someone revived a 2010 thread.

:D


Derklord wrote:

Let's take a look.

Power Attack: "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn." No seperate action stated. PA is independent of everything else you do this turn.

Vital Strike: "When you use the attack action, (...)" That's a triggered ability. You declare you use the attack action, and then you can use Vital Strike to modify your damage roll.

Overhand Chop: "when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, (...)" That's also a triggered ability. You declare you use either the attack action or the charge action and then you apply a higher strength modifier on the damage roll if you meet the condition.

Power Attack can be used with anything, so that's save. Vital Strike and Overhand Chop both only modify an existing action, (and different enough parts of that to not have some interaction issues).
Conclusion: Yes, it all stacks if you use the attack action. Power Attack + Overhand Chop stack on a charge, but you can't use Vital Strike in that case.

On a side note, conditions/requirements are generally inclusive in Pathfinder, and thus the 2xStr modifier still qualifies for Power Attacks 3:1 ratio.

Making a new thread would have been better than reviving a seven-year-old thread, by the way.

If I've read correctly if you use Pounce it fully stacks with a charge... Charge + Full attack action (vital strike, power attack, and Overhand Chop)?


John34404 wrote:
If I've read correctly if you use Pounce it fully stacks with a charge... Charge + Full attack action (vital strike, power attack, and Overhand Chop)?

Vital Strike can't be used on a charge or a full attack action, so unless you have a specific ability allowing it you couldn't include that.

Also looking at the text for OVERHAND CHOP you can only use it when making a single attack. So even though it's compatible with a charge, it's not compatible with Pounce.


John34404 wrote:
If I've read correctly if you use Pounce it fully stacks with a charge... Charge + Full attack action (vital strike, power attack, and Overhand Chop)?

What MrCharisma said was 100% correct, but I want to explain it a bit more.

The "attack action" mentioned in Vital Strike and Overhand Chop does not simply refer to any kind of action that contains an attack as, far from it. These two abilities refer to the action called "Attack", listed under "Standard Actions" in the "Actions in Combat" section, on page 182 of the CRB. You have read that whole section I hope.

As you can see from the word "when", Vital Strike is a triggered ability, and the trigger is using the standard attack action. Any time a feat, class feature, general rule et al. states an action type for an ability, it's not the attack action. Any ability that says "standard action", "move action" "swift action", "immediate action", "full-attack action", or "full round action" uses a different action and thus doesn't trigger Vital Strike. Attacks of Opportunity don't use an action, and thus obviously aren't attack actions either. Especially note that while the 'attack action' is a type of 'standard action', the opposite is not true (a 'standard action' with an attack is not the 'attack action' unless explicitly called out). If something does not use the exact phrase "attack action" (without a "full" in front), it's not the attack action. Likewise, while a 'full-attack action' is a type of 'full round action', the opposite is not true. Meanwhile, "full attack", "full-attack action" and (rarer) "full attack action" all mean the same (so pounce works with everything that says "as a full-attack action").

As you have only one standard action and one move action, and any type of full round action (including any full-attack action) uses both, you can't use something that is or requires any kind of standard action (including the attack action) in a round in which you use any full round action, or vise versa.

It's confusing, and indeed one of the worst written parts of the game, but understanding this is a vital part to understanding the game.

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