Been thinking about buying kingmaker, but my group prefers E7 games (past level 7, feats instead of levels). Would it be a lot of work converting kingmaker to E7? Do many important concepts base themself in high-level casting?
Won't that make the game kinda unbalanced? Classes that uses/benefits from having a lot of feats will gain more then other classes.
Like a fighter may benefit more then a spellcasting focus Sorcerer?
As for Kingmaker itself, the early part of the adventure path is quite open ended and not too difficult. So it should not be too much of a problem. (At least for the first 2 books lvs 1 to 6.)
I like doing npcs and such, monsters arent a big issue either. Its more if theres a lot of reliance on high-level concepts such as teleportation and planar travel.
Hiya - I heard that Kingmaker in the later Eps 5-6 gets very very intense. I've asked a similar question and was told that Kingmaker is NOT the AP to try it with given the BBEG
The plot works perfectly well for an E7 game (except perhaps book 6), and the first two books can be run as is without any real need for alteration.
Once you start hitting book 3 onwards you will need to start toning the monsters down, changing up the random encounter list etc.
I was considering running Kingmaker as an e7 game myself, but decided against it after reading the amazing Sound of a Thousand Screams. That said, if you're willing to put in the hard yards go for it! I'd love to see your conversions :)
I've run Kingmaker through with standard PF rules before, and I think it could adapt very well to E7. I find scaling things down much more easy than scaling things up.
The Kingdom rules are driven by the magic item economy, so some alteration there will be needed.
I would honestly say that the biggest problems with running KM with an EX in mind are thematic.
Plot Stuff:
Kingmaker is an excellent but somewhat flawed AP. No matter what you're going to have to decide what you're looking to emphasize. As written it's slightly schizophrenic, with two plot threads that are linked but don't feel that way as is.
1) The war against Pitax. This is the more EX-oriented plotline. It's primarily explored in "Rivers Run Red," "Blood For Blood," and "War of the River Kings."
2) Nyrissa's plot to take over the Stolen Lands. As a villain....she works but is very distant and hard to pin down. There are encounters directly related to her throughout the first five books, but without some effort on your part to connect the dots for the PCs she basically comes out of nowhere in book six.
If your interest is solely in the Pitax plotline, it can work. But Nyrissa is essentially a demigoddess, and won't have the same impact if she doesn't get access to ninth level spells in combat.
If you want to run the Nyrissa plot, then you're not going to want to run E7. That's the bottom line. There's still work to do, but far less to make Nyrissa's presence more felt. Journals detailing her appearances, a strand of green hair in the possession of most of the villains (showing her influence)....you can go a long way without actually having to write in any new encounters.
If you decide to eliminate it, you're going to have to do a fair bit of work to keep elements of it from slipping in without losing XP for the players. More random encounters might help, but I would suggest just eliminating most of the Fae-themed encounters from the books. This also means the campaign will end after "War of the River Kings," which will be truncated by an entire dungeon. This might make the AP a little short.
I would honestly say that the biggest problems with running KM with an EX in mind are thematic.
** spoiler omitted **
I've read similar warnings in the handful of "Kingmaker for E6" threads. However, I'm not yet convinced that axing the high-level opponents is the only solution. Instead, you could add ways for the characters to gain power beyond that of mortal men, specifically given to battle those higher evils.
For example, having the blessings of the old primal animals of the oldest forest of the land could allow a character to shapeshift into a legendary animal, adding hit dice and supernatural powers. Or a divinity could allow one of its servants to bound to the soul of a faithful character for a while, giving access to higher spellcasting abilities and extraordinary resilience. Reflavor it as a Spirit Totem or the ghost of a Warlord King of old, and you possibly have the right answer for a Barbarian or Fighter. And for arcane spellcasters, well, you always have the classics : various wellsprings of power (tapping into the lifeforce of the land, of people, or whatever else fits thematically), and good old bargains with <insert your Dark Power of choice>.
What's sure however, is that anything past CR8-10 will have to be heavily tweaked.
I've read similar warnings in the handful of "Kingmaker for E6" threads. However, I'm not yet convinced that axing the high-level opponents is the only solution. Instead, you could add ways for the characters to gain power beyond that of mortal men, specifically given to battle those higher evils.
You mean like "By letting them advance in levels" already does? What's the point of using EX if you're just going to bypass the the change in scope (Which is the entire point of the rules to begin with?)
Interesting. Ill have to buy and evaluate it. Could nyrissa be rewritten so the plot accepts shes too dangerous to combat directly, treating her plot in a more "cosmic horror"-influenced way? The players would have to find some weakness to stop her, rather than beat her in a straight up fight, or make plans for evacuating their whole country through some magic portal?
Edit: im also not opposed to the idea to give temporary access to powers beyond their level; ive previously given low-level characters a +1 axiomatic demonbane lance for a while, as well as a special potion of time stop once.
I've read similar warnings in the handful of "Kingmaker for E6" threads. However, I'm not yet convinced that axing the high-level opponents is the only solution. Instead, you could add ways for the characters to gain power beyond that of mortal men, specifically given to battle those higher evils.
You mean like "By letting them advance in levels" already does? What's the point of using EX if you're just going to bypass the the change in scope (Which is the entire point of the rules to begin with?)
Thats my take away.
I love E6/8 for Carrion crown. It is relatively easy to fix... Instead of leveled monsters, just make them standard Bestiary versions with just the leader having a few levels. A slight tweak to Vampires (use the Spawn template for the flunkies and use vamped out level 1's and 2's and standard bestiary for the vamps) and the final chapter? Again while the BBEG will desperately need a fix, the location critters? Just go back to basic bestiary versions.
I've read similar warnings in the handful of "Kingmaker for E6" threads. However, I'm not yet convinced that axing the high-level opponents is the only solution. Instead, you could add ways for the characters to gain power beyond that of mortal men, specifically given to battle those higher evils.
You mean like "By letting them advance in levels" already does? What's the point of using EX if you're just going to bypass the the change in scope (Which is the entire point of the rules to begin with?)
Not quite. I think it is very different to have plot-related, normally unattainable powers for one or two epic battles than to run characters from level 7 to 18ish and have them go "oh, we should totally be able to down that by now".
I run E6 games for the incredible paradigm shift they provide (*), the very elegant cutoff point, and the massive decrease in prep time due to faster encouter design. Gaining levels past six makes you lose all of that. Breaking rules for the sake of a grand finale, however, does not necessarily destroy the strong points of E6, and can make for a memorable campaign ending.
On an unrelated point, stringburka, I seriously hope that you realise that running E7 has quite a lot more balance issues than E6 + custom feats. But from your posts, It seems you already ran quite a few Ex games, so you probably know it already. :)
(*) Which you mentioned, and I think then you fully understand that E6 does not neccessarily mean low magic or low power. You could gestalt and heavily break WBL with E6, and still not have to deal with the added complexity and reality-bending powers of high level adventurers.
Edit : And I really like the "Cosmic Horror" idea ! You could easily design lots of interesting encounters and plot devices around it, without having to resort to break the boundaries of the E6 ruleset.
I looked up Nyrissa at the wiki and srd, and got some more info on the adventure path plotline. I'm thinking I could maybe have her as sort of an alien threat, focusing on how fey think very differently from us - introducing fey earlier, showing of how alien their ethics and view of life is, and how insignificant the lives of mortals are to them, in a lovecraftian sense.
My plan is to put them on a time frame so that if she's not taken care of fast enough, her plan WILL work and the PC's job will be to keep a portal to another plane open long enough for as many to be evacuated as possible. On that plane, I can let them work a bit at keeping the survivors alive in a quite hostile environment...
I'll drop her down a bit in power to MT6/Sor4 - still enough to be more or less unstoppable personally, unless they somehow banish her, or reduce her powers. I'm thinking there could be a few good plots to do this; somehow cutting her off from her home plane, stripping her of druidic powers; tricking her into a metal "armor" or case of sorts, stripping her druidic powers, or tricking her into some kind of trap where she can be banished (but who knows for how long? *dramatic music*). Even without druidic powers, she'd still be a pretty darn dangerous fight, as a 18 hd fey casting as 10th level sorcerer; probably fit for a party of 4 7th level pcs with ~5 extra feats and a few lower-level npc's
E6 vs E7 rant:
Valfen wrote:
On an unrelated point, stringburka, I seriously hope that you realise that running E7 has quite a lot more balance issues than E6 + custom feats. But from your posts, It seems you already ran quite a few Ex games, so you probably know it already. :)
Custom feats means there can be just as many balance issues as that extra level - it completely depends on what they do. I'm very careful with custom feats (and generally most things non-core). I actually prefer E7 to E6 because of several things; many classes get good capstone abilities (eg armor training 2, wholeness of body etc), you gain an extra feat, and it's the level where Leadership is attainable. In those ways, E7 is more akin to E6 was in D&D 3.5.
The only balance issue I see with 7 is the availability of 4th level spells, but I've got a slight house rule there - one less spell per day of them, and casting time increased tenfold. So 4th level spells are powerful, but not something to rely on.
It seems you don't need any help, with all those awesome ideas. :)
I especially like the intention of insisting on the outlandish behaviour of fey creatures, because its perhaps the more interesting thing about them : they have a mindset so utterly different that most of what they do tend to be unsettling, if not downright frightening, to humans.
E6 vs E7 rant:
stringburka wrote:
Custom feats means there can be just as many balance issues as that extra level - it completely depends on what they do. I'm very careful with custom feats (and generally most things non-core). I actually prefer E7 to E6 because of several things; many classes get good capstone abilities (eg armor training 2, wholeness of body etc), you gain an extra feat, and it's the level where Leadership is attainable. In those ways, E7 is more akin to E6 was in D&D 3.5.
True enough, and I agree that the cutoff point at level 6 made much more sense in 3.5 than in Pathfinder. You lose the beautiful magic of the "everything is bumped by +1" at level sixth which I always found almost painfully well-thought, but gain a lot less hassle in designing custom feats to bring capstone abilities into play. Hm. *ponders on this*
stringburka wrote:
The only balance issue I see with 7 is the availability of 4th level spells, but I've got a slight house rule there - one less spell per day of them, and casting time increased tenfold. So 4th level spells are powerful, but not something to rely on.
Yeah, its the biggest point, full caster except poor sorcerers (easy to fix though) get full access to 4th level spells. Also, with your house rule to increase casting time, the fact that "hybrid" class get full access to third level spellcasting make them all the more powerful. (they give up more spells known/per day for vast increases in versatility, which is often a good tradeoff).
But as I myself favor quite a bit the "lean upwards" approach towards 7-8th level abilities through capstone feats (and classes a bit more powerful and not yet fully playtested in their level 1-6 abilities), it may be a bit unfair of me to argue about that kind of balance issues...
Anyway, E6 games often need quite a bit of rules tinkering, so nothing too bad as long as the GM keeps an eye on balance and fairness. :)
While that E7 provides that level 4 spell (and level 3 for hybrids) I use that spell slot as like an Arcane Focus (use any spell you know) bonus. It also eliminates 4th level spells.
This keeps 3rd level spells the domain of full casters.
Now at level 7? ALL full casters at 7th level get access to ritual magic, so sorcerers no longer suck ass and miss out. Ritual magic isn't a spell slot as much as something that takes up a book ALL of its own... it takes correct setting, specific expensive components, HOURS of time etc.
Full BAB characters are the only ones who get the second attack. A character that goes 5 levels warrior class type and 2 as a 3/4 class don't qualify. This protects the domain of the full BAB characters.
So BAB now rolls out 3/5/7 assuming characters stick to one class.
The BIG reason why I love E7 compared to E6? The feat structure for Pathfinder works better for E7 than E6, which aligned more to 3.5. Many class features also improve at that odd level and some great capstones come out - Barbarian DR/ Fighter movement in heavy armour, Magus Knowledge etc. Clerics get their extra channeling dice and rogues their sneak attack.
I'm not an expert on Ex, but I've heavily modified my campaign to remove almost all Fey-related storyline (just don't care for it) and it was very easy to do. I think if you don't want to run the final module and avoid Nyrrisa entirely, it shouldn't be hard.
Everything else should be able to be lowered in power just by yanking levels from BBEGs and lowering the number of creatures encountered. Again, haven't tried it myself, but it doesn't seem too hard.
