WARNING: CRIMSON THRONE SPOILERS BELLOW
Firstly, it would help to know more about this particular Paladin. Does she subscribe to a specific Code of Conduct, or is she a Paladin for a particular deity? Is this the first instance of questionable behavior or is this part of a string of shady actions?
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No. A paladin that is dead can not protect anyone and they know that so fighting against bad odds would not make sense.
What I as the character would do is pull the oracle aside and let him know that such actions will not be condoned again, and RP a more focused effort on getting rid of the queen, to make sure this does not happen again.
PS: I would never punish a paladin for being in a no-win situation.
As a player I would have my paladin atone and ask for forgiveness. <---You can suggest that to the the player.
The paladin is devoted to Serenrae, and she has the general code of conduct (as described in the core rules).
Earlier in the game a man attempted to surrender to her, and she promptly beheaded him, which I considered.... extreme.
Swagger, you don't think she should have at least TRIED to stop them?
Thanks for speedy responses.
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It says a lot about how dumb the paladin code is when a paladin being outnumbered and essentially betrayed by his own party member is considered a cause for falling.
This paladin had no way of doing anything, and should instead be worrying about hanging with that Oracle ever again.
The Paladin code: Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Emphasis Mine.
The paladin is devoted to Serenrae, and she has the general code of conduct (as described in the core rules).
Earlier in the game a man attempted to surrender to her, and she promptly beheaded him, which I considered.... extreme.
Swagger, you don't think she should have at least TRIED to stop them?
Thanks for speedy responses.
IIRC Sarenrae is about forgiveness, so assuming you are using the book with the specific codes in it, I think he should have taken the surrender. <---This would be a problem assuming my memory is correct. This could be a player disconnect issue. I am assuming the character would know it was against the ethos of his deity so I would have told him ooc, that his deity would not approve. If he did it anyway, than that is the character deciding he does not care, and the powers would be gone most likely, but that is only due to Sarenrae. A more martial deity might not care as much.
Back to the bloodvale situation: He should have tried talking them(grey maidens and the oracle) out of it, or tried to make the crowd go home, but entering combat is a bad idea.
That is my primary issue: She asked the crowd politely to go home.... then stood their as they got slaughtered- she didn't even comment about the oracle helping them out.
I know what the code says, but it is not a straight jacket, or it should not be anyway. That leads to bad situations for paladins. It could lead him into suicidal situations, and that was not the intent of the code. If he is of more help by trying to bring the queen down then him dying right then is actually him helping less. That is why even paladins have to choose their battles.
That is my primary issue: She asked the crowd politely to go home.... then stood their as they got slaughtered- she didn't even comment about the oracle helping them out.
It seems convincing a party member would be easier. Did the player of the paladin just think the oracle player would not listen so he gave up trying? I just find it easier to calm my friends down most of the time, than it is to calm a stranger so I wonder if this is an ooc issue, or the player really just not being fit to play a paladin.
And for the record, this applies to all good characters in my games, not just paladins. Had any cleric/oracle of a good god done this, they would be standing there without powers.
Slight side tangent. I hate to nitpick, but since an Oracle was involved in the incident with the Paladin, I just want to point out that it's impossible for an Oracle to fall without house ruling. They can take a hit to their alignment, but there's no language in the APG to suggest that an Oracle can lose their powers. Also there's no rules for being an Ex-Oracle unlike all the other divine classes(Excluding Rangers).
Rawr we are speaking of paladins. Not oracles.
No the paladin did not try to stop the oracle.
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IMG this paladin would totally fall. Sometimes being good means risking your life for others, perhaps a certain death. She would be morally obligated to help those people regardless of the risk to her life. Once you start using "but I might die" as an excuse to not help innocent people who are about to be killed, you aren't worthy of being a paladin. She didn't even voice a protest, by the sound of it!
Unless this plague somehow made the afflicted crazy or evil and they therefor threatened other innocents, there is no excuse to just let them be slaughtered.And for the record, this applies to all good characters in my games, not just paladins. Had any cleric/oracle of a good god done this, they would be standing there without powers.
There's a difference between risking your life and throwing it away. There are situations where your life would be completely and utterly wasted with no chance of bettering anything, and that means you will never help anyone in the future either, because you're dead. This makes it even more important for Paladins. If your life is devoted to helping people, why did you get yourself killed?
If it works in your games that's fine, but I think most people would disagree with you.
Oracle is one of Asmodeus for the record.
At the very least the code says to punish those who commit evil acts: would the oracle not be getting holy vengeance?
Oracle is one of Asmodeus for the record.
At the very least the code says to punish those who commit evil acts: would the oracle not be getting holy vengeance?
...The paladin wouldn't even knowingly travel with this guy if he follows the code.
While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good.
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At the very least, it would be very difficult to explain why the Paladin would continue staying with that oracle. If there was no holy vengeance, then nearly any paladin would at the very least leave with a "you will pay for this." Even in ideal situations it's extremely difficult to make a party with a paladin and an evil character (or worshipper of an evil god) work out. EDIT: Ninja'd by Dominus.
And while the whole paladin-falling situation would obviously have some table variance, I hold with the others saying that a paladin has no obligation to throw their life away when it would not help anybody. They should be swearing vengeance, making a plan, and gathering allies to make sure this kind of atrocity never happens again. Case in point: there is a good number of paladins in underground resistance movements in Cheliax. If they were required to jump into hopeless battles every time they saw an injustice, every single one of them would be dead, and nobody would be helped.
In the Inner Sea Gods book it lists the Code of Conduct expected of Sarenae's Paladins. One of their Edicts is, "The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not."
Another of her Edicts is, "I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky"
The way I see it, a Paladin of Sarenae wouldn't solely fall for not engaging in an impossible battle. However since Sarenae is the Goddess of Redemption, they would risk falling for not excepting the earnest surrender of an enemy. As well failing to even attempt to find a peacable solution is a problem. It's also a major problem if that Oracle is actually evil and the Paladin knows this.
I wouldn't suggest immediately slapping them with a stripping of powers. Go with the Ominous Dreams/Portents of Doom to make it clear that they're at the edge of the cliff.
Rawr we are speaking of paladins. Not oracles.
I stated quite clearly that his was IMG - in my game. There's plenty of nonsense that is RAW and plenty of sense that isn't. This is one case. I have no idea if the oracle in question worshipped a god that would object to this sort of action. This last bit was just to point out that paladins have no special status in my games. Anyone who wishes to get power from an external source should not do stuff that source disapproves of, and IMG good gods/philosophies strongly disapprove of killing innocents or allowing innocents to come to harm when you can help them.
I understand that the subject at hand is the Paladin and that Bjørn was referring to how things are at his table. I was simply stating Game Mechanics in case the Oracle was being in contention for losing their powers. I've met several people who don't understand the differences between Oracles and Clerics, especially in regards to the sources of their powers.
Beheading someone who tries to surrender is definitely an evil act that would make a Paladin fall like a sack of rice.
The other situation you described depends a lot on the understanding of the alignment rules and the code of the paladin. I'm opposed to forcing a paladin to throw his life away, and generally I don't think that inaction can be an act (good or bad). If he really has no chance to make a difference except of ending up as an additional corpse I would allow it. However I would fully expect him to follow the "punish those who harm or threaten innocents"-part of his code. Meaning he'd have to either beat the oracle to death or to an oath to do penance on the next occasion and make sure that the Grey Maidens get what they deserve.
the paladin shoud have fallen when beheaded that guy who surrendered
in the case in exam instead a paladin would not fall for retreating in an impossibile battle i.e. the paladin should be willing to risk his life if this would bring some result to his cause, but that isn't the case. On the other hand he should not associate with an evil oracle
The oracle is Lawful Neutral- his god is Asmodeaus, a deity commonly worshiped in Korvosa.
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Best guideline I ever heard for this sort of thing ...
"If you have to ask, the answer is no."
Having a paladin fall serves almost no purpose except to destroy your campaign and make your players hate you. 'Punishment' mechanics have no place in RPGs.
Sounds like you need to sit down with your players OOC and talk about how things line up. A paladin of sarenrae willingly associating with an oracle who worships asmodeus - and just committed and heinous crime - is not an adventuring party which is going to last. Either the paladin needs to become more of a 'grey guard' type thematically (which is fine, it seems like that is already how they are being played) who doesn't follow sarenrae necessarily and is more about ends-justify-the-means (you would have to create a new, homebrew code), or the oracle needs to reconsider their options. It may also be acceptable for one or the other to re-roll and the previous character to be come an antagonistic NPC (still somewhat controlled by that player).
I'm loathe to say this but, this is partially your fault for not vetting their character choices at the beginning of the game. How did you NOT realise there was going to be issues with an asmodean and a paladin?
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I'd have had them fall when they beheaded the surrendering guy. That's so utterly antithetical to Sarenrae's beliefs as to be unbelievable.
And speaking as someone who's looked through CotCT...the Grey Maidens in question are level 2 Fighters. Maybe level 3 if updated to Pathfinder. The PCs are probably at least level 5...this isn't an unbeatable encounter unless the PCs are way more outnumbered than seems likely. Especially with the diseased people backing them up.
So this isn't suicide, and not at least trying to stop it is either cowardice or apathy, and should result in the Paladin falling. Damn it.
And having a Paladin fall isn't a game-ender. Atonement is a spell that exists after all, and exists for a reason.
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Your edgelord Oracle is the real problem here. If he isn't interested in helping the party -- why show up? Actively opposing the Paladin is a jerk move.
On top of that, you and your Paladin clearly have different ideas about what she should/shouldn't do. I recommend you two work on this together and maybe have a talk to your Oracle about the tone of this particular AP and party -- "saving a doomed city and being a bunch of big freakin' heroes" doesn't exactly line up with "team up with corrupt government thugs and slaughter diseased people".
/rant
IMG this paladin would totally fall. Sometimes being good means risking your life for others, perhaps a certain death. She would be morally obligated to help those people regardless of the risk to her life. Once you start using "but I might die" as an excuse to not help innocent people who are about to be killed, you aren't worthy of being a paladin. She didn't even voice a protest, by the sound of it!
Unless this plague somehow made the afflicted crazy or evil and they therefor threatened other innocents, there is no excuse to just let them be slaughtered.And for the record, this applies to all good characters in my games, not just paladins. Had any cleric/oracle of a good god done this, they would be standing there without powers.
Oracles don't rely on deities, and the greater good takes precedence. If you risk death doing something less important it coudl be argued that you put the lives others in danger.
I stated quite clearly that his was IMG - in my game. There's plenty of nonsense that is RAW and plenty of sense that isn't. This is one case. I have no idea if the oracle in question worshipped a god that would object to this sort of action. This last bit was just to point out that paladins have no special status in my games. Anyone who wishes to get power from an external source should not do stuff that source disapproves of, and IMG good gods/philosophies strongly disapprove of killing innocents or allowing innocents to come to harm when you can help them.And for the record, this applies to all good characters in my games, not just paladins. Had any cleric/oracle of a good god done this, they would be standing there without powers.I hate to nitpick, but since an Oracle was involved in the OP's scenario I just want to point out that it's impossible for an Oracle to fall without house ruling. They can take a hit to their alignment, but there's no language in the APG to suggest that an Oracle can lose their powers. Also there's no rules for being an Ex-Oracle unlike all the other divine classes(Excluding Rangers).
The oracles is not powered by an external source. He is given the power completely..
As an example a cleric is constantly connected to his cleric in as if he has to ask his deity for permission to withdraw money from a bank.
The oracle has his own bank account with money given to him by someone else. Since the money is now his it cant be taken away.
Oracle is one of Asmodeus for the record.
At the very least the code says to punish those who commit evil acts: would the oracle not be getting holy vengeance?
I don't know if this was an IC or OOC issue because I dont know why the paladin did not say anything. That actually matters. Without that information it is hard to make a decision.
From an IC point of view this entire situation makes no sense right now.
I would have had the paladin fall following the beheading after the proferred surrender.
Standing by while innocents are slaughtered I also see as a falling offense. If the code is, “I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not, then the paladin should have struck quickly and mercilessly because that battle was not a fair one.
Devout fighters would get a pass on that situation. Pious wizards, too. But a paladin? “Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine . . . In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline . . . paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future.” That pretty much nails the coffin shut on the issue as far as I'm concerned.
However, “I do not flinch from my faith” is also part of the code. Had the paladin leaped into a hopeless battle like that, I would first see how the battle went. PC's have an incredible way of beating the odds. Who knows? Maybe the group would have jumped in to help; maybe even the oracle would've realized who her companions were and stood with them.
Had it gone south, I would have had Sarenae sent back-up in the form of an angel of high enough HD to make the battle possible. I'd just have the angel in glow ball form, illuminating the paladin in a halo of light, casting buffs on the paladin each round and heal when needed.
When the battle was over, the angel assumes angelic form and informs the paladin, “Your faith has been rewarded – this – one – time. Choose your battles (and with a penetrating gaze to the oracle) and your companions with care.”
This rewards the paladin's faith but let's them know that they can't be reckless like this again. Stress out of game that this will not happen again and stick to that promise. And lastly, don't put the paladin in a no-win situation like that again.
However, the paladin just stood by while innocents were slaughtered, she should've fallen.
Mykull the situation is in the book. It was hardly a no win, as the PC's just needed to make a diplomacy check to talk the grey maiden captain down.
The paladin felt that the grey maidens were a lawful authority and that that justified their actions IE: quelling a crowd that refused to disperse.
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Mykull the situation is in the book. It was hardly a no win, as the PC's just needed to make a diplomacy check to talk the grey maiden captain down.
How many Grey Maidens were there? The encounter is non-specific, and once it gets down to combat it's relevant.
The paladin felt that the grey maidens were a lawful authority and that that justified their actions IE: quelling a crowd that refused to disperse.
As a Paladin of Sarenrae, he should be prioritizing Good over Law. Kinda definitionally.
I'd actually argue that's true of all Paladins, but it's definitely and indisputably true of those of NG gods.
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Crimson Throne is a beautiful AP to have a well-played paladin in, from beginning to end. A Sarenite especially, considering Grau, Verik, Laori, Sabina, and everyone else just waiting to interact with such a character.
But a Judge Dredd "LAW FIRST" paladin will send this AP right off the rails. This is not the campaign for blind obedience and turning off your conscience.
As is, the paladin needs to step up and start being a paladin. And a Sarenite.
(and maybe stop decapitating people that are surrendering)
Regarding the Asmodean oracle: Evil characters can work in traditional heroic parties, but the onus is on them to behave in such a way that makes the party want to keep them around. Not getting that vibe here.
Take a look at the iconic paladin and magus, Seelah and Seltyiel. Seelah stays around Seltyiel because she thinks there's some good in him. She probably wouldn't continue doing that if Seltyiel started pulling stunts like the one described upthread.
Having a paladin fall serves almost no purpose except to destroy your campaign and make your players hate you. 'Punishment' mechanics have no place in RPGs.
In that case you should just scrap the paladin and all divine classes that can lose their powers. If you play one you accept to play by the rules of the god you worship and follow the code of conduct. In that regard being a paladin, inquisitor, cleric or whatever is pretty much like a pact with a devil. If you break it there'll be hell to pay. RPG's should never be about choosing the most fun ability sets but about consequences.
Mykull the situation is in the book. It was hardly a no win, as the PC's just needed to make a diplomacy check to talk the grey maiden captain down.
The paladin felt that the grey maidens were a lawful authority and that that justified their actions IE: quelling a crowd that refused to disperse.
No win might also apply to the fact that was no decision that wouldn't lead to violating the code of conduct.
Ignore the plight of the people and we have the question we have here as the paladin failed to follow "punish those who harm or threaten innocents" portion of the code.
Stop the Grey Maidens could also do the exact same thing as "respect legitimate authority" is right there in the Paladin code as well.
Does this mean that if the PCs failed the diplomacy check to talk the Grey Maiden Captain, then at that point would the paladin been completely fine to watch the slaughter? Did he fall because he tried to talk to only one group or because he tried to convince one group rather than another?
Personally, I think the paladin failed the code of conduct on the basis that she didn't try very hard to stop this overall. If she had tried to convince both groups and failed, then I would say that she had followed her code. But I would give a certain amount of leyway in my decision to avoid it becoming an issue where I'm making the player guess what actions I expect from them.
That said, I feel that you know what to do best since you have better than any of us a knowledge of the characters and players in the game. As a player I would be fine with code related issues in this situation because the code is one of the strongest draws to the paladin class for me.
For other people I know, this is a game to have fun with and running into a situation where you have to guess what the GM is thinking you need to do (or lose all your class abilities). That is doubly so when they have to argue with another player on their course of action because those sorts of argument, depending on the group, can easily spiral form in-game fun to out-of-game players-furious-at-each-other disaster.
I'm not saying that players should be happy with every decision, but, to be honest, if the dropping this on the paladin isn't fun for the game, I would reconsider it on that basis alone.
Relying on GM Fiat to hopefully save you is a bad way to make a decision. Paladins also dont know what "PC's" are.
If I ever play a Paladin I am so specializing in the Sap. Sure, it's not the traditional Paladin weapon, but it makes taking people alive so much easier.
On Topic: I'd suggest that the Paladin in this instance should not fall. The situation was a bad one for following the code, but in this instance she tried to resolve the situation peacefully, then when the mob refused to disperse in spite of the local authority being present with the threat of using deadly force to resolve the situation, she stood aside and allowed the authorities to step in and restore order.
Assuming that the consequences of their actions were clear to the mob when the paladin made her speech, then there's no reason for her to join a riot that refuses to disperse simply because they're up against better armed foes. They chose this fight, she isn't required to shield them from the consequences.
In the same position I'd have joined in using nonlethal attacks to subdue the mob and trying to convince the authorities to follow my lead. However, I haven't read or played the module in question so I'm using very general terms.
Off topic: At some point I fully intend to play an Oracle 'Blessed' by a trickster god who's the complete antithesis to the PC's personal code or beliefs, then have the god laugh mockingly whenever he's forced to use his powers.
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Assuming that the consequences of their actions were clear to the mob when the paladin made her speech, then there's no reason for her to join a riot that refuses to disperse simply because they're up against better armed foes. They chose this fight, she isn't required to shield them from the consequences.
This also. The guard may have over reacted, but at the same time people need to know how to pick their battles. After the guard kills the first person the rest of them should scatter.
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Re: Surrender.
Paladins should accept surrender when practical, but this is a provisional thing.
If accepting a surrender will significantly hinder an important mission, then refusing to accept the surrender is perfectly valid.
EG: The group is trying to stop a doomsday cult from summoning a Balor in the middle of a city. Fighting through the outer defenders of the cult, one of them surrenders.
In this instance sparing the time to restrain the man could mean being too late to stop the plan, and letting him go to gather allies behind the group or alert the rest of the defenders makes him likewise a liability. In this instance the Paladin is entirely justified in killing him (or preferably knocking him out to deal with later) simply because there's too much at stake to stop and deal with it properly.
If the surrendering individual has a history of surrendering then backstabbing whoever takes him prisoner, the paladin is under no obligation to honour his surrender as there is solid evidence that it is not given in good faith.
There are other circumstances where accepting a surrender is not required of a paladin, but these are some good examples.
Relying on GM Fiat to hopefully save you is a bad way to make a decision. Paladins also dont know what "PC's" are.
Not suggesting the player make the decision on the basis that the GM will rule in their favor. I am suggest that GMs make most rulings of the nature based on what is fun for the game.
The Paladin doesn't know what PCs are. They player of the paladin is certainly aware though. It is very different to have your character argue with any given NPC the GM is running at the moment as opposed to arguing with another PC. Depending on the group, the topic, or the day an argument between PCs can be incredibly fun or it can just make the game a hostile place that people don't want to come back to.
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If I ever play a Paladin I am so specializing in the Sap. Sure, it's not the traditional Paladin weapon, but it makes taking people alive so much easier.No need, thanks to Golden Legion's Stayed Blade.
i think that it depends on the god they worship some of the paladins code s among them do require a paladin to act even if the situation is grim i believe iomedae is one of the ones that says you must act.
Well, yes, but by that reasoning the Oracle should have been taking the Paladin's needs into consideration.
In this situation the paladin stood there and watched as a group of panic-stricken, (relatively?) unarmed, non-evil people were hacked apart by a brute squad because, quote, 'there were too many brutes.'
Even if it's decided that the paladin won't fall because of this fearful inaction, the player should definitely consider switching characters. Whether through quick thinking, misdirection, or attacking the brutes and running off to force them into pursuit, some action in the name of good would have been preferable to 'oh, dearie me'.
The player to player connection is what I am waiting on feedback on.
WARNING: CRIMSON THRONE SPOILERS BELLOW
** spoiler omitted **
Honestly .... I think this paladin should fall, or the player should at least get a talking-to from the GM. In a situation against overwhelming odds, a paladin still (IMO) ought to do something about the situation. Perhaps the paladin can't defeat an army of bad guys by force of arms, but he could still:
* Call town guards
* Challenge the bad guy leader to a duel or single combat (bonus points if the paladin's allies use the duel as a diversion to ameliorate the situation otherwise)
* Get as many innocents as possible to safety.
* Fight the overwhelming forces (maximizing defense as he does so) while other PCs get innocents to safety.A paladin should always look for ways to protect the innocent ... even when the situation seems hopeless.
None of those were viable in that situation. His options were live to fight another day, or die.