So I've joined up in a game and we admittedly have all bases covered, giving me a rare chance to play anything. After a week of thinking, I've decided on being a Paladin, but of the dexterous two weapon fighting variety. I'm looking for good feats to grab (aside from the obligatory TWF).
Double slice, Two weapon rend.
I would not go with weapon finesse. The more damaging TWF build get just enough dex to qualify for the feats the want, and then leave it alone.
I would not go with weapon finesse. The more damaging TWF build get just enough dex to qualify for the feats the want, and then leave it alone.
Why not weapon finesse? Since my Dex will be high enough anyways, there's a good chance it'll be higher than my Str.
If you pump your strength it will improve your to-hit, and you damage. Dex only does one of those, and every TWF build has strength as being higher because it does more damage.
This all assumes you are looking for the mechanical advantage. If I run the DPR number on a TWF'ing dex based and str based pally the STR one will do more damage. If you let me know your point buy I will post the numbers tomorrow. I have to go to work soon so I can't do it now.
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(Just my option)
It is a wast of time. Building a Dex base Paladin makes it even harder for a paladin to compete in melee. Due to the stat required for one. Over all the Str,Dex,Con,Cha as required stats. Is what really kills this kind of build.
Build.
Any thing over a end dex of 17. Is a net lose because you will need Str for damage. Any thing past improved two weapon fighting is a diminished return. Your 3rd attack is at a -12 total with the two weapon fighting and 3rd attack bab mod.
Going weapon and shield is not a bad way to go ether. If you want to do that ending with just a 15 dex for normal twf is good. Picking up a light weapon and heavy shield keaps the penalty in check until you can get to shield master feet.
Over all going with a high dex you are better off going for a range focus with twf as your back up. Taking the twf, itwf, weapon finesse. And every thing else in range feet's.
I suppose. I just assumed I'd go down the TWF feat list for the extra attacks. Although I guess I can always supplement my dexterity with a magic item later to qualify.
As for point buy, we are doing 21. Why 21, I have no idea. Level 3
Just remember you're going to have the bare minimum number of feats if you go pure Pally.
My favourite Pally has been Dex based, but instead of TWF he went the Dervish Dance route.... reaaally nice damage :D And not nearly as MAD as other builds. (basically just maxed Dex and Cha)
That is true, though with Smite Evil and Spells, it should make up for the limited feats. I really didn't see many Paladin only feats that interested me except for Extra Mercy.
I can understand not getting Weapon Finesse since unlike the Ranger and Rogue, I can get heavy armor and thus I am not heavily reliant on Dex like them. The only thing really stopping me from getting heavy and medium armor is the loss of movement speed.
If you are doing a 21-point buy I'd go with something along the lines of a 15-15-14-13-10-9 (Str-Dex-Cha-Con-Wis-Int) then taking a race to give you a bonus to Charisma or Strength (as 15 will give you the necessary dex for TWF). The Charisma bonus would give you better spellcasting, while the Strength bonus would give you higher damage. At 4th level I'd take the ability score point in Strength in any case to get you to the next modifier.
A heavy armor two weapon fighter is limited in feats because your armor limits the effectiveness of a high dex and AC. I'd also not discount Weapon Finesse right off... it may be out of the ordinary, but using a light weapon off-hand reduces your TWF penalties to -2, weapon finesse reduces the off-hand one to -1, while weapon focus reduces the other penalty to -1 as well. and by Level 3 take two mwk weapons and now you have eliminated the penalties altogether (bringing you back to your base attack bonus).
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That is true, though with Smite Evil and Spells, it should make up for the limited feats. I really didn't see many Paladin only feats that interested me except for Extra Mercy.
I can understand not getting Weapon Finesse since unlike the Ranger and Rogue, I can get heavy armor and thus I am not heavily reliant on Dex like them. The only thing really stopping me from getting heavy and medium armor is the loss of movement speed.
I have not used any thing other then light armor in years. We use a game map for combat. There is a huge difference in how important movement is using one. The other thing is after playing way to many high level games. Evasion and Divine Grace are kings of defense after level 10. Followed by any other ability's that help with saves. Post level 10 your ability to keep up your AC just starts costing to much. Along with your need to make more and more critical saves ingress. So up to around level 10 AC is useful. Past level 10 it is not nearly as important as other types of defense.
What are you alowed to use? Any 3.5 or 3rd party publishers?
We are just using the four core books at the moment. Core, APG, UM, and UC. Agile looks awesome though and Ill bring it by my roommate.
Why do you want to be a paladin?
Why do you want to be a paladin?
To smite evil, save lives, right wrongs, and heal the wounded. To save the innocents from a world gone mad!
And honestly I like paladins
Agile weapons make twf based on dexterity at least viable (smiting of course it will make it awesome). It's an expensive option, so you will have to come up with something else at lower levels.
That said, the best you can do is probably twf while using a shield, going the shield master chain.
Going for dexterity will reduce mad (which is good), but you will not benefit much from two weapon rend (which is bad) and you should probably avoid it (not so sure on this one, does the smiting bonuses to damage apply on TWR?? I'd say no but I'm not so sure). Doing this will reduce your damage output, but will improve your saves (simply spend on CHA what you save from STR), increase your AC (celestial armor is the best armor in the game and pretty darn cool for a paladin) and will make you not suck on dexterity based skills (it could be worth to not dump int so that you can afford a few ranks in stealth or even acrobatics and it will make you not look ridiculous while on a horse even with few or no ranks in ride).
As said going for TWF with a shield is probably your best option, but you will be starving for feats like no other build (probably even dipping a bit in fighter). Using a light shield will also let one hand free for casting and lay on hands.
EDIT: a couple of minor stuff and the following.
Just wanted to add that wakizashi may be the best weapon for TWF but it's on average +1 to damage over a kukri, something I would not spend a feat on, especially on a feat starved build like yours. Oh, wakizashis are cool, but you can simply describe your weapons as such and use the stats of the kukri.
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If you pump your strength it will improve your to-hit, and you damage. Dex only does one of those, and every TWF build has strength as being higher because it does more damage.
Unless you have access to the Agile enhancement, in which case you only need as much strength as is necessary to hold up under the influence of gravity.
Using 20 point buy level 10 pally. The AC is only about a 25
1 twf 15
1 double slice
3 toughness
5 weapon focus or improved init
7 improved TWF 17
9 improved crit kukri
11
Dex build
str 10
dex 20 (base 15, +1 at level, +4 from belt)
con 14
int 9
wis 12
cha (base 15, +1 at level 8, +2 from race)
not smiting without weapon focus 14.82
not smiting with weapon focus 16.38
smithing without weapon focus 53.46
smiting with weapon focus 57.42
STR build
str 18 (base 14 , +4 from belt)
dex 17 (base 16, +1 at level 4)
con 13
int 9
wis 10
cha 20 (base 13, +1 at level 8, +2 from race, +4 from headband)
Before I do the math for the next build I will say that the damage that comes from your weapon being magical, strength damage, and other added on damage will always account for more than your base damage from the weapon alone. That is why the base weapon damage is not nearly as important as the additional damage.
I will be using the same feats for the str build, but I will have to switch the attributes of course.
not smiting without weapon focus 17.34
not smiting with weapon focus 19.38
smithing without weapon focus 59.94 outdoes the dex version with weapon focus.
smiting with weapon focus 64.38
If you pump your strength it will improve your to-hit, and you damage. Dex only does one of those, and every TWF build has strength as being higher because it does more damage.Unless you have access to the Agile enhancement, in which case you only need as much strength as is necessary to hold up under the influence of gravity.
But you still lose out because that +1 to hit and damage is going to pay for Agile, and it does not work with double slice so you are losing more damage.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Even with Agile for the dex build, the strength build does more damage.
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ut you still lose out because that +1 to hit and damage is going to pay for Agile, and it does not work with double slice so you are losing more damage.
How do you figure? What +1 are you even talking about?
Point-buy comparisons ("+" = racial bump)"
STR+17
STR:14 ...fail (cannot TWF unless Ranger2 or monk multiclass)
STR+16
DEX:15 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build points
STR:14
DEX+17 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build points
STR:10 (could be dumped much lower)
DEX+19 (bump 4th) ....cost: 13 build points
-- As soon as Agile weaponry is obtained, the last build is either +2/+2 vs STR16/DEX15 start, or +1/+3 attack/damage vs STR14/DEX17 start. Agile "plan" does less damage at low level; more damage once enhancements are secured.
If you pump your strength it will improve your to-hit, and you damage. Dex only does one of those, and every TWF build has strength as being higher because it does more damage.
This all assumes you are looking for the mechanical advantage. If I run the DPR number on a TWF'ing dex based and str based pally the STR one will do more damage. If you let me know your point buy I will post the numbers tomorrow. I have to go to work soon so I can't do it now.
I am with wraithstrike on this one. Get dex to the minimum, you need to really put everything else you can spare into strength. You do more damage.
He said he was only using Core/APG/UM/UC though, so that would remove the option of the Agile enhancement
Why do you want to be a paladin?To smite evil, save lives, right wrongs, and heal the wounded. To save the innocents from a world gone mad!
And honestly I like paladins
The correct answer here is, "So others won't have to."
We have a two-weapon paladin in my current Age of Worms campaign. She just hit level 20 and has done a pretty decent job so far. Her only issue is damage. She rocks when she smites, but otherwise she's way behind the curve. Her preferred weapons are her holy avenger and her sunblade.
He said he was only using Core/APG/UM/UC though, so that would remove the option of the Agile enhancement
Then he will suck whenever not smiting (if whe will go for DEX).
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Even with Agile Str is the way to go. You can not play with out all the things that can do Str damage. Even at low levels. There are more then a few things that can do it. At higher level having a first level range touch spell knock you out of play is bad. But that is what your setting your self up for. Yes you can make the save for 1/2 damage. So that is still 1-3Str damage. And if you fail the save for some reason your done if you started with a 10 Str. Taking 2-7Str damage is not good at all. Dex builds work if two things are not used at the table. Combat map and encumbrance rules. We don't use encumbrance much unless the DM thinks you are carrying to much. Then you go and find out how much you are carrying. We use the combat map all the time. Any combat character that starts with a Str of 10 is going to run in to problems.
Chain shirt 100 GP +4 +4 –2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lbs
(2)Kukri 8 GP 1d4 18–20/x2 — 2 lbs. S
Total Weight 29Lb With nothing else on.
Total Weight if Mithral 14.5LB. at a cost of 2000GP.
7 23 lbs. or less
8 26 lbs. or less
9 30 lbs. or less
10 33 lbs. or less
ut you still lose out because that +1 to hit and damage is going to pay for Agile, and it does not work with double slice so you are losing more damage.How do you figure? What +1 are you even talking about?
Point-buy comparisons ("+" = racial bump)"
STR+17
STR:14 ...fail (cannot TWF unless Ranger2 or monk multiclass)STR+16
DEX:15 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build pointsSTR:14
DEX+17 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build pointsSTR:10 (could be dumped much lower)
DEX+19 (bump 4th) ....cost: 13 build points-- As soon as Agile weaponry is obtained, the last build is either +2/+2 vs STR16/DEX15 start, or +1/+3 attack/damage vs STR14/DEX17 start. Agile "plan" does less damage at low level; more damage once enhancements are secured.
Sorry about the late reply. What I am saying is that due to the stipulation in the agile enhancement rules you can only get half your dex as damage to your offhand.
If you focus on strength you get full strength to you primary and off-hand attacks with double slice.Since double slice specifically calls out strength damage it won't work with dex.
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CONTEXT:
(...)Point-buy comparisons ("+" = racial bump)"
STR+17
STR:14 ...fail (cannot TWF unless Ranger2 or monk multiclass)STR+16
DEX:15 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build pointsSTR:14
DEX+17 (bump 4th) ....cost: 12 build pointsSTR:10 (could be dumped much lower)
DEX+19 (bump 4th) ....cost: 13 build points-- As soon as Agile weaponry is obtained, the last build is either +2/+2 vs STR16/DEX15 start, or +1/+3 attack/damage vs STR14/DEX17 start. Agile "plan" does less damage at low level; more damage once enhancements are secured.
Which, in the zero-sum point-buy examples I listed above, still yield either a +1/+1 or +0/+2 attack/damage versus the STR-based MAD builds using +2 enhancement bonus weapons.ut you still lose out because that +1 to hit and damage is going to pay for Agile, and it does not work with double slice so you are losing more damage.How do you figure? What +1 are you even talking about?A +2 sword costs the same as a a +1 Agile sword.
Therefore he's saying that spending equal money a Strength build will always have an extra +1 over the Dexterity build.
What I am saying is that due to the stipulation in the agile enhancement rules you can only get half your dex as damage to your offhand. If you focus on strength you get full strength to you primary and off-hand attacks with double slice.
Since double slice specifically calls out strength damage it won't work with dex.
My TWF samurai uses Dragon Style (w/Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists) unarmed strikes with his off-hand to avoid that disparity. (He took a level of Fighter[Unarmed] to obtain the style feat sans prerequisites.)