Question about creating Ring with multiple abilities


Rules Questions


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Might be creating a new Wizard at level 9 and I wanted to try out an enchanter. My idea was that I would use a ring as my bonded arcane focus and wanted that ring to have the Sustenance and Invisibility abilities. Since I am created this character at level 9 there is not set order of which ability was put on the ring first. If I understand the rules for creating items with multiple abilities it sounds like you create the item with the initial ability and then pay 1.5 for each other ability added to the item after that.
So if I started out with a Ring of Sustenance and added Invisibility it would cost 1250 for Sustenance and then 15000 for Invisibility. For a total of 16250.
If I did it in the reverse order it would be 10000 for Invisibility and then 1875 for Sustenance. For a total of 11875.

Is this correct or did I misunderstand something?

-dm


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It doesn't matter which ability was on the ring first, the cost of the two abilities on the same ring is the same, regardless of which is first. Whenever you stack enchantments you follow this formula :

A) Cost of most expensive enchantment.
B) Cost of second most expensive enchantment.
C) Cost of third most expensive enchantment (if present).
D) Cost of fourth most expensive enchantment (if present).
...
ZZZ) Cost of ZZZth most expensive enchantment (if present).

Formula : A + (1.5*B) + (1.5*C) + (1.5*D) + ... + (1.5*ZZZ)

So, in our case, we have :

A) 20,000gp (cost of invisibility ring)
B) 2,500gp (cost of ring of sustenance)
C) 0GP
...
ZZZ) 0gp

So, 20,000 + (1.5*2500) = 20,000 + 3750 = 23,750.

So the ring costs 23,750gp if you buy it in a store. If you're crafting it from scratch, it costs 23,750 / 2 = 11,875gp.

Check with your GM, he may allow crafting pre game, or he might not. If he doesn't, then your ring costs 23,750gp out of your starting funds. If he does, then it costs 11,875gp out of your starting funds.

If you had a ring of sustenance already (2,500 gp), and you were going to add the invisibility ability, then you'd be going from 2,500 to 23,750 in value. That's a difference of 21,250. So you'd pay half the difference to enchant it (10,625 gp). If you were paying someone else to add the enchantment, it would cost you another 21,250 gp to enchant it.


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It's an "ask your GM" scenario. The rules don't cover custom items, they just provide guidelines.

Quote:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. ... other items require at least some judgment calls.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Bobson wrote:

It's an "ask your GM" scenario. The rules don't cover custom items, they just provide guidelines.

Quote:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. ... other items require at least some judgment calls.

Everything is always an 'ask your GM' question, but this is actually covered in the rules. When you're stacking unrelated abilities on the same item slot, each additional ability costs 50% more, with the most expensive costing the base amount. Check the magic item creation section for the relevant rules.


mdt wrote:
Bobson wrote:

It's an "ask your GM" scenario. The rules don't cover custom items, they just provide guidelines.

Quote:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. ... other items require at least some judgment calls.
Everything is always an 'ask your GM' question, but this is actually covered in the rules. When you're stacking unrelated abilities on the same item slot, each additional ability costs 50% more, with the most expensive costing the base amount. Check the magic item creation section for the relevant rules.

That rule only apples to "items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body". It's undefined for slotted items which have unrelated abilities, which is probably an oversight.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Bobson, you are confusing two different rules.

Magic Item Creation wrote:


Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.


Exactly. You quoted from Multiple Similar Abilities above, when you said the order doesn't matter. However, the question is about Multiple Different Abilities, which is the part you just highlighted. That part specifically says "each additional power... has a 50% increase in price", which means that determining which ability is first and which is additional does, in fact, matter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Bobson wrote:
Exactly. You quoted from Multiple Similar Abilities above, when you said the order doesn't matter. However, the question is about Multiple Different Abilities, which is the part you just highlighted. That part specifically says "each additional power... has a 50% increase in price", which means that determining which ability is first and which is additional does, in fact, matter.

No it doesn't. At each stage of growth you price out the item as if it were finished and you analyze each property. If an additional property that's added later has a higher base cost than one that was added before IT becomes A when you recalculate the cost.

The key thing to remember is at each time you enchant it you calculate it as if that were the way you made it first off when it comes to setting costs.

In that sense it doesn't make a difference which enchantment was laid first.


How does metamagic influence the cost of something like this? Let's say I want to be able to use the ring as a swift action. Does that increase the cost? And if so by how much?

I'm asking because I created a ring of invisibility/major image. So you can disappear and leave behind an illusion of yourself. But I have no idea how to price it out.

Silver Crusade

Man my players must hate me because when I read that rule I was dang that's cheap... so I have a house rule that they can pick 1 ability that costs 50% of its enchantment cost .5(store price/2) and each ability after goes up in price,
by a factor of 2+number of abilities already selected..

A)price of 1st 15000
B)price of 2nd 14000
C)price of 3rd 13000
D)price of 4th 12000

total price=.5(A/2)+B^2+C^4+D^5 = .5(15000/2)+14000*2+13000*3+12000*4=
3750 + 28000 + 39000 + 48000 = 118,750

and Mage evolving you would use the rules for the meta-magic because it changes the acting level of the spell and would thus change the price of an enchantment.

Price of the original ring if done with my house rule.
10,000 even [.5(20,000/2]+[2500*2]
So as you can see getting single enchant items is fairly cheap but each additional increases its price, this is to fight of the making of the ring of uberness that has +5AC, Invisibility, Greater Illusion, Sustenance, etc....


Maric5 wrote:


and Mage evolving you would use the rules for the meta-magic because it changes the acting level of the spell and would thus change the price of an enchantment.

Price of the original ring if done with my house rule.
10,000 even [.5(20,000/2]+[2500*2]
So as you can see getting single enchant items is fairly cheap but each additional increases its price, this is to fight of the making of the ring of uberness that has +5AC, Invisibility, Greater Illusion, Sustenance, etc....

Sweet thanks! I'm awful at figuring this stuff out. 9 times out of 10 I just blurt out a ridiculously high number and do some gm hand waving.


Mage Evolving wrote:

How does metamagic influence the cost of something like this? Let's say I want to be able to use the ring as a swift action. Does that increase the cost? And if so by how much?

I'm asking because I created a ring of invisibility/major image. So you can disappear and leave behind an illusion of yourself. But I have no idea how to price it out.

If you read the guidelines for the first round of RPGS Superstar, you'll see Sean explain why having an item which casts a spell as a swift action is usually a broken idea. However, there's already a spell which does what you want. Take a look at the mislead spell. Casting that as a standard action from a ring would be perfectly reasonable. Just make sure it's more limited or much more expensive than a ring of invisibility.


LazarX wrote:
Bobson wrote:
Exactly. You quoted from Multiple Similar Abilities above, when you said the order doesn't matter. However, the question is about Multiple Different Abilities, which is the part you just highlighted. That part specifically says "each additional power... has a 50% increase in price", which means that determining which ability is first and which is additional does, in fact, matter.

No it doesn't. At each stage of growth you price out the item as if it were finished and you analyze each property. If an additional property that's added later has a higher base cost than one that was added before IT becomes A when you recalculate the cost.

The key thing to remember is at each time you enchant it you calculate it as if that were the way you made it first off when it comes to setting costs.

In that sense it doesn't make a difference which enchantment was laid first.

. While I totally agree with you that this makes sense, and it's how I'd run it in my own games, there's nothing in the RAW to support it. It only says "each additional". It doesn't specify that the most expensive counts as the first, nor does it specify that you have to pick an original enchantment and call that the first. It doesn't say to recalculate the whole thing, either.

The standard reading of "I have something and I'm adding an additional something" would say that the new one is the additional one. So without any text to specify otherwise (which I wish there was), the RAW based on English grammer is that whatever property is added first is at normal cost, and all additional ones, whether cheaper or more expensive, are at 50% higher.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Bobson wrote:

While I totally agree with you that this makes sense, and it's how I'd run it in my own games, there's nothing in the RAW to support it. It only says "each additional". It doesn't specify that the most expensive counts as the first, nor does it specify that you have to pick an original enchantment and call that the first. It doesn't say to recalculate the whole thing, either.

The standard reading of "I have something and I'm adding an additional something" would say that the new one is the additional one. So without any text to specify otherwise (which I wish there was), the RAW based on English grammer is that whatever property is added first is at normal cost, and all additional ones, whether cheaper or more expensive, are at 50% higher.

Actually it's totally supported by RAW. Magic items aren't priced by what's put in first, but by the total package of enchantments. They're always priced the same no matter how the order was put together.

It's also extremely important to note that RAW does not have a full pricing structure for every item that you can make. You'll have to make interpretations and fudging every now and then especially for the custom orders.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
DangerMaus wrote:

Might be creating a new Wizard at level 9 and I wanted to try out an enchanter. My idea was that I would use a ring as my bonded arcane focus and wanted that ring to have the Sustenance and Invisibility abilities. Since I am created this character at level 9 there is not set order of which ability was put on the ring first. If I understand the rules for creating items with multiple abilities it sounds like you create the item with the initial ability and then pay 1.5 for each other ability added to the item after that.

So if I started out with a Ring of Sustenance and added Invisibility it would cost 1250 for Sustenance and then 15000 for Invisibility. For a total of 16250.
If I did it in the reverse order it would be 10000 for Invisibility and then 1875 for Sustenance. For a total of 11875.

Is this correct or did I misunderstand something?

-dm

The rule is that at each stage the cost is calculated as straight price for the most expensive power than a 50 percent markup on all powers in addition. The logical extension of this rule means that for every configuration it is recalculated.


LazarX wrote:
Bobson wrote:

While I totally agree with you that this makes sense, and it's how I'd run it in my own games, there's nothing in the RAW to support it. It only says "each additional". It doesn't specify that the most expensive counts as the first, nor does it specify that you have to pick an original enchantment and call that the first. It doesn't say to recalculate the whole thing, either.

The standard reading of "I have something and I'm adding an additional something" would say that the new one is the additional one. So without any text to specify otherwise (which I wish there was), the RAW based on English grammer is that whatever property is added first is at normal cost, and all additional ones, whether cheaper or more expensive, are at 50% higher.

Actually it's totally supported by RAW. Magic items aren't priced by what's put in first, but by the total package of enchantments. They're always priced the same no matter how the order was put together.

It's also extremely important to note that RAW does not have a full pricing structure for every item that you can make. You'll have to make interpretations and fudging every now and then especially for the custom orders.

LazarX wrote:
The rule is that at each stage the cost is calculated as straight price for the most expensive power than a 50 percent markup on all powers in addition. The logical extension of this rule means that for every configuration it is recalculated.

Show me rule quotes for the bolded lines, please. The "Calculate the price of the single most costly ability,..." one isn't relevant, because that only applies to slotless items with similar abilities (such as staves). And nothing else I can find talks about recalculating the price of existing enchants.

I want to be proven wrong, but I need to be proven wrong. So far, no one's come up with any support for this position.


LazarX wrote:
Bobson wrote:

While I totally agree with you that this makes sense, and it's how I'd run it in my own games, there's nothing in the RAW to support it. It only says "each additional". It doesn't specify that the most expensive counts as the first, nor does it specify that you have to pick an original enchantment and call that the first. It doesn't say to recalculate the whole thing, either.

The standard reading of "I have something and I'm adding an additional something" would say that the new one is the additional one. So without any text to specify otherwise (which I wish there was), the RAW based on English grammer is that whatever property is added first is at normal cost, and all additional ones, whether cheaper or more expensive, are at 50% higher.

Actually it's totally supported by RAW. Magic items aren't priced by what's put in first, but by the total package of enchantments. They're always priced the same no matter how the order was put together.

It's also extremely important to note that RAW does not have a full pricing structure for every item that you can make. You'll have to make interpretations and fudging every now and then especially for the custom orders.

I don't know of any magic item int he core book that disucces the order in which enchantments were placed on it, so I don't see how you're making those claims

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That's the whole point... The order is NEVER discussed. The rules dissect item construction by cost of power, not the order of where they are laid on. Magic items are always priced from the point of view of the completed item... not the intermediary steps.


LazarX wrote:
That's the whole point... The order is NEVER discussed. The rules dissect item construction by cost of power, not the order of where they are laid on. Magic items are always priced from the point of view of the completed item... not the intermediary steps.

You're being presumptuous to say that means that's how they should be priced, and that it's a written rule.


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I can't think of any magic items direct out of the book which would fall under the "multiple different abilities in a body slot" description. Remember that "different" is considered to be something like a bonus to some rolls and a spell-like ablity, not two bonuses to rolls.

That being said, I just found the line I was hoping someone would find. From the magic item cost table:

Quote:
Multiple different abilities | Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

Given this, there's now a clear, rules-based way to determine which enchantments are the "additional" ones.

I do want to point out, though, that responding to my request for a rule source by citing a lack of mention in th rules, with no examples, doesn't prove anything. It would be entirely possible that it's never discussed because such an item doesn't exist in the item list. We have the rules to create an item that gives a +2 deflection bonus, +3 natural armor bonus, and a +5 armor bonus as an ioun stone. But that doesn't exist on the list of existing ones, so you can't prove anything about those rules based on the lack of a mention.


For fun, build in a hand of glory for only 6,000gp more (if the rules allow and my maths is right) for a ring that allows you to wear another ring.


Bobson wrote:
I can't think of any magic items direct out of the book which would fall under the "multiple different abilities in a body slot" description. Remember that "different" is considered to be something like a bonus to some rolls and a spell-like ablity, not two bonuses to rolls.

No, "different" means any two "different" abilities. As for core items, try the Robe of the Archmagi. +5 armor bonus (with an additional +4 or +5 special armor property of Spell Resistance 18), +4 resistance bonus on all saves, and a +2 enhancement bonus to overcome spell resistance.

I am not going to go through and price everything out right now, but there is a thread where this exact thing is talked about. I'll try and find and link it.

Master Arminas


And here it is: Upgrading a Robe of the Archmagi

Master Arminas


Quote:

The +5 armor bonus and SR 18 are equal to a +9 armor property (81,000 gp).

The +4 resistance bonus is 16,000 gp, + 8,000 gp for secondary.

The +2 bonus on caster level checks is 10,000 gp (about the same as a feat in 3.5), +5,000 gp for secondary.

Final cost is 120,000 gp. You get a 30% reduction in the price of an item for either a specific class or a specific alignment. Which would be 80,000 gp. Book price is 75,000 gp, so I guess they just added that extra cut since the robes require a specific class (well, one of two specific classes) and a specific alignment!

And here was the specific pricing on that item from the posted thread.

Master Arminas


Sorry for the necrobump, just remembered this thread when I was reading over something else on magic items and reread this section.

PRD wrote:

Adding New Abilities

Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a
magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch.
Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing
magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites
required of the new ability to be added to the magic item
restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as
if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item.
Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword,
with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword
minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a
character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to
that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds
the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the
cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of
invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

(Emphasis mine)

Unless there's an errata or FAQ I missed, the cost of making a magic item will be different vs adding abilities to an existing one. If you were the creator from scratch, the cost of creating a ring of protection +2/invisibility, would be 13000gp. 10000gp for the invisibility and 6000gp for the protection +2(1.5x). If you found a ring of protection +2 or created one to start(4000gp), then later in the adventure you wanted to add the invisibility component to it, the ring would cost you another 15000gp to add that.

So one ring you make and have the resources to enchant it will cost you 16000gp from scratch. Finding a ring and having to do the more expensive enchant, will only require 15000gp to add the new ability to an item that already cost someone 4000gp to make.


The belts and headband that add ability scored follow the increase by 50% rule.

example: +2 int, +2 wis

+2 is normally 4000, but due to you getting two of one them the other cost 6000 which is 50% more than the regular price
6000+4000=10000.

If you look at the belts that increase 3 ability scores the price follows the same formula.

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