DM has declared the upcoming campaign will be "difficult." What classes are the most powerful?


Advice

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Sohei of Many Styles/Beastmorph Vivisectionist on a Synthesist.

Grand Lodge

Have you seen an Alchemist with an Elixir of Shadewalking? Multi role little monsters they are.

Dark Archive

Ævux wrote:


If I was to ever do a druid, I'd have a freeking T-Rex as my pet. That I'd eventually cast awaken/anthropomorphic animal on and permatizie it. Nothing says badass like a full plate mail wearing T-Rex who incidentally still keeps his bite attack.

I just tried out a T-Rex as my Animal Companion at 14th level and it rocks! Load that badboy up with Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave and Cleaving Finish and you will literally tear your opposition to pieces.


Ooh... thanks for that info, Diabhol. I was gonna make a T-Rex Cavalier but I didn't know how effective it'd be.


Blastoguy wrote:


Re: Bards: I haven't actually seen a bard since I switched to pathfinder, I just remember they were next to useless in 3.5, how have they changed for the better?

Read this post, and the next one :D


Good advice here but I would add that it also heavil depends on the GMs playstyle.

If your GM likes to stretch out these low levels (1-6) for quite some time then melee-chars are better than arcane casters with the possible exception of a specialised Witch which can work great even at low levels. In this case I would advise to build a party like this:

2-H Barbarian, Skill/Buff focused Bard, Melee/Buff Cleric, SoS Witch

However if the low levels are over fast and the GMs tends to cut your group some slack only to kick in at mid levels I would advise:

2-H Barbarian, Skill/Buff-Focused Bard, Cleric or Paladin or Druid, Wizard or Witch

In the unlikely event that you kick in at High level my advice would be:

2-H Barbarian, Cleric or Paladin, Wizard, Wizard

Of course other combinations are very close and might even be better in the field because of the player behind the char but these are what I think as the absolute best.


Blastoguy: Obviously you have witch settled on

Some good options to round out the rest of the party:

2nd slot (Frontliner): Cavalier(or Samurai)/Paladin/Fighter/Barb

3rd slot (Support): Cleric/Oracle/Inquisitor/Alchemist/Bard/Druid

4th slot (Skill/Utility/Versatility): Wizard/Bard/Cleric/Druid/Summoner

You'll notice some overlap, of course. The classes of each is what you make of them.

You and your party should keep the following things in mind:
Survivability
Saves, HP, AC, and Contingency plans. Don't expect healing to save you in fights. If you need healing to save you, you're doing the party a disservice. Of course you won't always have control over this, but make plans as if you do. Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude exist for a reason!

Synergy
Someone above said Witches are only good for debuffing. That's horse-crap. My most-used hex was Fortune; it never failed due to a save and I can't tell you how many times it saved the day. Fortune+Enlarge Person on your frontliner makes things go oh-so smoothly.

You should be intently looking at the interoperability between party members.

Talk with your GM about the campaign
If he is a good story-teller, it's highly likely that they won't spoil the story for you. But you guys should be able to run some strategy ideas by him. If he sees you guys headed for disaster, he MIGHT inform you!

Talk about how you're planning on developing your character.
Don't just built survivability and synergy into your characters at first level. By level 5 things could easily fall apart. The campaign should be getting tougher, so should your party.

Backup characters
Sad but true. Have them planned and developed before-hand. Keep them up to level with the party.

I've probably left important things out. Hopefully this small offering of advice is useful.


Sardonic Soul wrote:
Synthesist summoner, damn near broke my campaign last night. Don't care what anybody thinks. Our entire group decided it was broken when it started to solo encounters. It did die but only because he was level seven and picked a fight with a cr 13 monster in close quarters. I will have nightmares for many more nights because of this character. It equals auto win.

Really its biggest strength is natural weapons, claw/claw bite with a pounce.. Just be glad it isn't a totemist who went chimera. 3 bites, two claws. All five are primary attacks.

My summoner died to a wyvern. Con poison is a b$#@~, especially when you lose your eidolon armor.

My level 8 fighter in AD&D solos encounters that were built for the entire group.


Forgot to mention.
I think an optimal balanced party should include both a spontaneous and a prepared primary spell caster.
One to try and get the few perfect spells for the situation.
One to constantly spam the generally useful spells.

So an oracle and wizard or a cleric and a sorcerer.
Or some other combination.

Dark Archive

Ævux wrote:
Pinky's Brain wrote:

Team summoner for the win obviously, despite everyone pretending the class isn't OP like hell. Summoner is basically the druid of old, a caster with a Fighter++ pet as a class feature. Excellent spell list too despite the bard casting progression.

The divine spell lists for the cleric just isn't what it used to be in 3.5 with splat ... they have a darth of good spells at low level.

Archers are generally stronger than melee in mid level (haste+iteratives). With exception of spirited charge lancers melee takes till 10/11 (barbarian pounce/ fighter mobile) to be able to keep up with them ... other melee will always remain outclassed by the archers.

Don't pick anything but the big cat for animal companion.

I don't get where the summoner has an "Excellent spell list". When I played one, I ended up doing nothing with casting spells other than giving extra evolutions to my pet.

If I was to ever do a druid, I'd have a freeking T-Rex as my pet. That I'd eventually cast awaken/anthropomorphic animal on and permatizie it. Nothing says badass like a full plate mail wearing T-Rex who incidentally still keeps his bite attack.

Ha, you do that and we'll sit in the corner laughing.

Casting awaken on a animal companion makes you LOOSE that companion and it looses all of the powers of being a companion. Using anthropomorphic animal on it doesn't let it use weapons or armor and takes away all of it's bite related abilities.

As for the Druid itself, any class that can be neutralized by a first level Witch spell (Beguiling Gift + steel Buckler/Metal Gorget = Lose all druid spells, spell like abilities and supernatural powers for 24 hours) is not my idea of powerful.


Until I take leadership. Bwhaha!

And Anthro, doesn't not allow it to use armor. It is simply not proficient in such things. Now that it is awakened though It can take class levels, or spend feats on such things.


Gruuuu wrote:

Synergy

You should be intently looking at the interoperability between party members.

Very important in my mind, so i´ll elaborate on this.

Talk to your fellow players, about their characters, roles and abilities. Get down basic tactics, buffing routines and use your brain;):

Silver Crusade

If you are looking to make the group better. Do not look at each class, but how the classes work together. A strong character dose not make a party strong. A character that is made to work with the party makes the party strong.

And take a lesson from real life. In a small unit of military forces. Each member needs to know at least two specialty's. That way a smaller group can cover a wider range of problems that can come up.

Witch: With the hedge witch archetype. And the patron healing. Can cover all the arcane and divine healing need for the group. This allows you to cover the arcane caster and divine caster spots with one character.

Paladin: This class dose very well at two things. It is a very good combatant, and it's special ability make it very hard to take out. Second it is a good back up healer. This character can cover melee, healing, and party face.

Bard: Buffing king there spells and special ability's make it happen. There ability to cover a wide range of skills out of combat. Make them very useful in almost every area of play. They can cover arcane spells, buffing, party face, and special skills.

Rogue or Ranger/Rogue: With the bandit rogue archetype. Combine with the bards buffing ability. There combat ability really is something. With there sneak attack damage and there other ability's. The rogue can really put out the damage when combined with a buffing machine like the bard. They can cover combat, and special skills.

Total
Casters: 1 Arcane that can over divine spells needed.
1 3/4 Arcane caster to cover buffs.
1 1/4 Divine caster for back up healing.
Combat:
1 full bab with special defense ability's.
1 3/4 bab buffing king.
1 3/4 bab buffed sneak attack dealing rogue.
Skills
2 Cha base casting/ability base party faces.
1 Knowledge skill master.
1 Trap, and Perception master.

The sum of there parts are much strong then the parts them selfs.

Dark Archive

Ævux wrote:

Until I take leadership. Bwhaha!

And Anthro, doesn't not allow it to use armor. It is simply not proficient in such things. Now that it is awakened though It can take class levels, or spend feats on such things.

So you are planning on waiting 3 levels after casting Anthro before using your old T-rex again? Also it'll be so much weaker after casting Anthro on it.

Remember Anthro takes away all it's bite related powers (no powerful Bite or Swallow Whole or Grab).

It loses all proficiency with any manufactured weapon so it will have to earn a feat before it can learn to use any weapon without a horrible penalty.
Which will be HARD since it's combat abilities have been nerfed but it's challenges to gain XP (half xp per adventure also) are only getting stronger.

None of that is really important since once you cast Anthro on it, it stays type=animal so you still need to succeed on a handle animal check every round to get it to use the armor or wield the weapon no matter what it's intelligence becomes.

Now if you intend to use Awaken to get past these problems, well providing you can actually make the the DC 28 Will save to affect the T-Rex with the spell, please remember that Anthro only works on creatures of type=animal and since it's not an instant duration spell, awakened creatures are no longer valid targets for the Anthro spell.

In short you can have an Awakened T-rex but it can't serve as a animal companion (losing all those powers it had) and is an invalid target for Anthro animal OR you can have an anthropomorphic AC who's totally gimped in the damage department. Your choice.


Thanks for the input guys! At the end of the day we have a vanilla witch, an archaeologist bard, a shapeshifter druid, and I have elected to be an invulnerable rager barbarian.

Are we doin' it right?


Sounds pretty reasonable to me


If you are having fun, then yes.


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pipedreamsam wrote:
If you are having fun, then yes.

Role-playing is fun. Not dying even more so.

Silver Crusade

Blastoguy wrote:

Thanks for the input guys! At the end of the day we have a vanilla witch, an archaeologist bard, a shapeshifter druid, and I have elected to be an invulnerable rager barbarian.

Are we doin' it right?

Can each character cover at least 2 of the following?

If yes it will work. The most important part is to over cover combat with at least 3 characters. The reason crowed control is great but dose not kill the enemy.
Combat
Divine Casting (Mainly healing, and remove condition spells)
Arcane Casting
Special Skills (Party Face, Traps, and Knowledge)


master arminas wrote:

PALADIN: Nay, none of these braggarts know the TRUTH. And the TRUTH is that I and those who, like me, have been chosen by the powers of LAW and GOOD are the most powerful. We wield compassion for those who have been injured through the force of our mercy. We perceive EVIL—it tastes like spoiled munster. And we have at our fingertips the tools needed to eliminate that EVIL should it persist in the delusions of victory. We shield the innocent behind us, and we bring ORDER to CHAOS. And it is through the deeds of my brethren and I, we few shining knights of GLORY, that your homes lie safe in the night.

RANGER: Right. Moving on, the holy-roller, the barb, and the others are dead wrong, my friend. Power is survival. And I am a survivor. I live off the land, but don’t worship it like a druid. My companion serves me, because he sees me as the pack alpha. Which I am. I wield bow, and greatsword, and knife—all equally well. Sure, I don’t have the fighter’s kitbag of tricks in my pocket or the clerics spells or the bard’s charm, but I have something that they don’t. I have skill and in my chosen locations I am the hunter. And everyone is my prey.

ROGUE: Nope. All this talk of power, and yet without me, none of them can do jack. Look, fella, we all know that power is about the things you get in this life—and that’s means I accumulate power a heck of a lot faster than these blowhards. I move without being seen or heard, unless I want to be. I know more skills than anyone else, and what do they do when in the deep dark places of the world they run into a simple lock? They break it! Letting all the bad guys know they are there. How sad. And traps? Sure, the cleric has a spell to detect ‘em, but only I can reliably get rid of them. Sneak attack? Look, that was pure PR. Let’s call it like it is, I back-stab people. Heck, it’s a lot safer than going toe-to-toe with them! Believe me, nube, there is power in the shadows, and ain’t no more shady then me.

SORCERER: Magic runs through my...

Still waiting for the APG classes.


Check out Treantmonk's Lab for optimization advice on bards, druids, and wizards (helpful for any caster).

I recommend steering clear of the cauldron hex and pooling money for a wand of CLW instead, particularly if your GM will let someone take the rich parents trait. It's more cost effective (15g per CLW vs. 25g), and will save your witch a hex. In my opinion evil eye has the most bang for the buck at level 1.

Liberty's Edge

I second any votes for Synthesist summoner. I have a 5th level one that I'm waiting to play while I'm the main DM for our group. Ran my 4 level 4 players up against a Young White Dragon and they almost all died (Ninja, Samurai, Wizard, Cleric). Then I ran a solo encounter with only my synthesist vs the dragon with the same exact scenario the party had. He completely destroyed the dragon without taking any damage. He's got haste, enlarge person, 20 str 22 cha lowest stat is a 14 while bonded to an eidolon (w/ 20 point buy stats). Enlarged he's threatening 15' out, with improved trip and combate reflexes. 70some HP at 5th level, 26 AC all day long, no really weak saves, evasion. Oh, and they can effectively heal themselves. Also with that Cha I can use cure wands with no chance of failing my UMD in a few levels. Two synthesists (one sneaky, one brutish), a master summoner and a cleric would prolly be one of the "most powerful" parties possible.


Jelani wrote:
I second any votes for Synthesist summoner. I have a 5th level one that I'm waiting to play while I'm the main DM for our group. Ran my 4 level 4 players up against a Young White Dragon and they almost all died (Ninja, Samurai, Wizard, Cleric). Then I ran a solo encounter with only my synthesist vs the dragon with the same exact scenario the party had. He completely destroyed the dragon without taking any damage. He's got haste, enlarge person, 20 str 22 cha lowest stat is a 14 while bonded to an eidolon (w/ 20 point buy stats). Enlarged he's threatening 15' out, with improved trip and combate reflexes. 70some HP at 5th level, 26 AC all day long, no really weak saves, evasion. Oh, and they can effectively heal themselves. Also with that Cha I can use cure wands with no chance of failing my UMD in a few levels. Two synthesists (one sneaky, one brutish), a master summoner and a cleric would prolly be one of the "most powerful" parties possible.

Yeah I think Paizo dropped the ball with the Synthesist. After fixing the 3.X Druid with their new mechanic behind shape changing and polymorphism, they created a new archetype for the Summoner who works just like the 3.X Druid. :\


master arminas wrote:

PALADIN: Nay, none of these braggarts know the TRUTH. And the TRUTH is that I and those who, like me, have been chosen by the powers of LAW and GOOD are the most powerful. We wield compassion for those who have been injured through the force of our mercy. We perceive EVIL—it tastes like spoiled munster. And we have at our fingertips the tools needed to eliminate that EVIL should it persist in the delusions of victory. We shield the innocent behind us, and we bring ORDER to CHAOS. And it is through the deeds of my brethren and I, we few shining knights of GLORY, that your homes lie safe in the night.

RANGER: Right. Moving on, the holy-roller, the barb, and the others are dead wrong, my friend. Power is survival. And I am a survivor. I live off the land, but don’t worship it like a druid. My companion serves me, because he sees me as the pack alpha. Which I am. I wield bow, and greatsword, and knife—all equally well. Sure, I don’t have the fighter’s kitbag of tricks in my pocket or the clerics spells or the bard’s charm, but I have something that they don’t. I have skill and in my chosen locations I am the hunter. And everyone is my prey.

ROGUE: Nope. All this talk of power, and yet without me, none of them can do jack. Look, fella, we all know that power is about the things you get in this life—and that’s means I accumulate power a heck of a lot faster than these blowhards. I move without being seen or heard, unless I want to be. I know more skills than anyone else, and what do they do when in the deep dark places of the world they run into a simple lock? They break it! Letting all the bad guys know they are there. How sad. And traps? Sure, the cleric has a spell to detect ‘em, but only I can reliably get rid of them. Sneak attack? Look, that was pure PR. Let’s call it like it is, I back-stab people. Heck, it’s a lot safer than going toe-to-toe with them! Believe me, nube, there is power in the shadows, and ain’t no more shady then me.

SORCERER: Magic runs through my...

Dude, you gotta do the rest of the classes, these were pretty fun to read.


master arminas wrote:

PALADIN: Nay, none of these braggarts know the TRUTH. And the TRUTH is that I and those who, like me, have been chosen by the powers of LAW and GOOD are the most powerful. We wield compassion for those who have been injured through the force of our mercy. We perceive EVIL—it tastes like spoiled munster. And we have at our fingertips the tools needed to eliminate that EVIL should it persist in the delusions of victory. We shield the innocent behind us, and we bring ORDER to CHAOS. And it is through the deeds of my brethren and I, we few shining knights of GLORY, that your homes lie safe in the night.

RANGER: Right. Moving on, the holy-roller, the barb, and the others are dead wrong, my friend. Power is survival. And I am a survivor. I live off the land, but don’t worship it like a druid. My companion serves me, because he sees me as the pack alpha. Which I am. I wield bow, and greatsword, and knife—all equally well. Sure, I don’t have the fighter’s kitbag of tricks in my pocket or the clerics spells or the bard’s charm, but I have something that they don’t. I have skill and in my chosen locations I am the hunter. And everyone is my prey.

ROGUE: Nope. All this talk of power, and yet without me, none of them can do jack. Look, fella, we all know that power is about the things you get in this life—and that’s means I accumulate power a heck of a lot faster than these blowhards. I move without being seen or heard, unless I want to be. I know more skills than anyone else, and what do they do when in the deep dark places of the world they run into a simple lock? They break it! Letting all the bad guys know they are there. How sad. And traps? Sure, the cleric has a spell to detect ‘em, but only I can reliably get rid of them. Sneak attack? Look, that was pure PR. Let’s call it like it is, I back-stab people. Heck, it’s a lot safer than going toe-to-toe with them! Believe me, nube, there is power in the shadows, and ain’t no more shady then me.

SORCERER: Magic runs through my...

This is very well done.


Maerimydra wrote:
Still waiting for the APG classes.

I don't know them well enough to do them properly. By all means, however, I grant you permission to do so in my place.

Master Arminas

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