Icy Tomb and Undead


Rules Questions


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So, I know by RAW, Icy Tomb does not work on undead. This seems to be a bit odd to me, since the effect I imagine it has is something like Icy Prison effect, which has been unofficially errata'd by SKR to be Reflex instead of Fort.

This seems like if it was a conscious decision, then it was done for balance reasons.

What say you all?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Do you mean Icy Prison from Ultimate Magic?

If so, it works just fine against undead.


From the description of the spell it looks like Fortitude negates is error in spell stats. Reflex partial is actual save, which means that it works on Undeads and Constructs.


where is Icy Tomb from (since I don;t think you mean the Icy Prison spell seeing as you reference it later on in your question)?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm guessing E I is referring to Ice Tomb, a witch major hex.


found it... in that case I don;t see why that hex wouldn't affect undead... although it requires a fortitude save it doesn't specifically say that it can't be used to affect objects. I would certainly allow a witch to use it to freeze a statue or other inanimate object in my games if she wanted to.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Indeed. If he meant the witch major hex from Ultimate Magic, then it works on undead just fine. Note that it doesn't say "creature," "target creature," or "living creature."

It merely says "target," meaning that the target can be anything, including an object. Since it can be used on an object, it can be used on undead, despite forcing a Fortitude save.


Thanks guys for the responses, despite my not-so-clear initial question.

But later on in the description of Ice Tomb, it does make specific reference to a creature. Moreover, are the undead susceptible to the paralyzed and unconscious effects of Ice Tomb?

If it's the case that Ice Tomb does work on undead, then we have the case that only http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/winter-s-wrath is the only Cold spell which does not work on undead, reason being that it does ability damage. Seems kinda wacky when you compare it to Cone of Cold (one cold just does damage and works on undead, but this other cold, which is much colder, does damage and ability damage, but does not work on undead).


RAW: Undeads, Constructs and objects are immune to effects that require Fortitude saving throw unless said effect states it can affect objects.

Not affecting objects by Fortitude-save effects is default, affecting is exception so unless effect states it affects we should assume it can't.

Icy Tomb hex does not state that it can affect objects so it won't affect object. Thus it won't affect Construct or Undead, regretfully.


Ravingdork wrote:

Do you mean Icy Prison from Ultimate Magic?

If so, it works just fine against undead.

Drejk wrote:
From the description of the spell it looks like Fortitude negates is error in spell stats. Reflex partial is actual save, which means that it works on Undeads and Constructs.

While the order of the saves may be written incorrectly, Icy prison does have two saves, one for partial one to negate. "Saving Throw Reflex partial, Fortitude negates (see text);" the fort save there means that undead are immune to it.

Would it be more logical to write them the other way? Yes, "Fortitude negates, Reflex partial,(see text);" would look better. That doesn't mean the fortitude save should be removed. TBH the odd formatting is making me think an editor tacked Fort save onto the end because of balance concerns.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4nde?Icy-prison-spell#1


Icy Prison has been errata'd here, unofficially. http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3v54&page=7?Ultimate-Magic-Errata#316

My question is why is there some cold damage effects which undead are immune to, and others which they take damage from? It can be flavored or fluffed in a certain way, to justify it, but I just wanted to know if there was a mechanical reason why.


Does anyone see if there are potential issues of house ruling Ice Tomb to be a Reflex save for half?

It seems to me that is it more or less the same as SKR's unofficial errata of Icy Prison.

Shadow Lodge

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I'd agree that the spell Icy Prison and the major hex Ice Tomb are meant to have the same save, but it'd be good to get some confirmation.

This post was originally about Ice Tomb and it seems it's lost its way a bit with the confusion with regards to Icy Prison (which got a clearer errata).


Wouldn't the undead still be encased in ice? The creature is encased in ice regardless of the save. Undead are immune to all the parts involving a Fortitude save (the damage, paralysis and unconsciousness) but not the imprisonment in ice or staggered condition, which affect all creatures. Or does "immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save" mean immune to the effect and everything else that the same action does regardless of whether it requires a save?

That doesn't make practical sense, though; because just being a zombie or whatever shouldn't make you immune to being covered in ice.

Text of the power, from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch

Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target’s saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. Source: Ultimate Magic

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