Can Create Water make rain?


Rules Questions


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I'm wondering whether Create Water can be used to call water into the air so that it falls to the ground like rain. It looks like the school description and the spell description contradict one another.

The description for Create Water says:

Quote:
Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles.

But Create Water is a conjuration spell, and the description of Conjuration in the magic chapter saith:

Quote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Water is arguably an object (if a fluid one), and it has definitely been brought into being by the spell. So on the face of it, you can't make a downpour, because doing so requires summoning the water into air. But the spell description says you CAN create a downpour.

If I were GM'ing this myself, I'd rule that it's okay to summon liquids into air. The conjuration rules look as though they're mainly intended to prevent you from summoning cute celestial dire dolphins into mid-air at a cliff edge just to watch them fall squealing to a hideous death.

Thoughts?


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conjure the water onto a slopped roof, whoosh, instant downpour onto anybody standing beneath it.

on the whole I agree that there is nothing really wrong with allowing the spell to create water in the air, however doing so might set up a slippery precedent for potential spells that conjure up other (more dangerous) liquids.

Scarab Sages

I've never had a GM contest that use of create water - usually used to put out a fire or "bathe" someone. :) However, I think RAW it can only be conjured onto or into something.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Specific beats general.

General rule says you must conjure onto a surface, but the specific spell description trumps it with the ability to be created in the air.

(Note that this also bypasses cwslyclgh's "slippery slope" concern, as any spell that doesn't have text like that of Create Water would not get such an exception.)


Ah, Jiggy's interpretation makes sense.

And leaves open the possibility of a bracing shower each morning out on the road.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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This is one case where the spell overrides the more general rules from the school description. Create Water can make it rain.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


The specific spell description overrides the general rule that applies to most spells in the school.

So, yes.

ninja'd by bunches


I'm makin' it rain up in here!

I've always allowed for the spell to be used as described. It makes the whole "help put out the fire" scenario one where small magics can be greatly appreciated.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This is one case where the spell overrides the more general rules from the school description. Create Water can make it rain.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

The specific spell description overrides the general rule that applies to most spells in the school.

So, yes.

ninja'd by bunches

Yeah, I'd say it's hard to get more thoroughly ninja'ed than that :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

gbonehead wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This is one case where the spell overrides the more general rules from the school description. Create Water can make it rain.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

The specific spell description overrides the general rule that applies to most spells in the school.

So, yes.

ninja'd by bunches

Yeah, I'd say it's hard to get more thoroughly ninja'ed than that :)

*AHEM*

Jiggy wrote:

Specific beats general.

General rule says you must conjure onto a surface, but the specific spell description trumps it with the ability to be created in the air.

(Note that this also bypasses cwslyclgh's "slippery slope" concern, as any spell that doesn't have text like that of Create Water would not get such an exception.)

:D

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Oh, I wasn't referring to when, I was referring to who :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shadowborn wrote:

I'm makin' it rain up in here!

I've always allowed for the spell to be used as described. It makes the whole "help put out the fire" scenario one where small magics can be greatly appreciated.

Just keep in mind though in hosing down a fire scenarios, that's not really that much output compared to a modern fire hose, but might be an improvement over a standard bucket brigade.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

I'm makin' it rain up in here!

I've always allowed for the spell to be used as described. It makes the whole "help put out the fire" scenario one where small magics can be greatly appreciated.

Just keep in mind though in hosing down a fire scenarios, that's not really that much output compared to a modern fire hose, but might be an improvement over a standard bucket brigade.

I've been wondering about this for a while now... using Create Water to fight fires, and how effective it would be.

So I've done a little research - here's part of what I've found.

From Wikipedia on Fire Sprinkler Systems (which would be more like Create Water than a hose spraying water). "A sprinkler activation will do less damage than a fire department hose stream, which provide approximately 900 liters/min (250 US gallons/min). A typical sprinkler used for industrial manufacturing occupancies discharge about 75-150 litres/min (20-40 US gallons/min). However, a typical Early Suppression Fast Response (ESFR) sprinkler at a pressure of 50 psi (340 kPa) will discharge approximately 100 US gallons per minute (0.0063 m3/s)."

1) Fire Department hose stream - approximately 900 liters/min (250 US gallons/min).
2) industrial manufacturing sprinkler system (for fighting fires) - about 75-150 litres/min (20-40 US gallons/min).
3) Early Suppression Fast Response (ESFR) sprinkler at a pressure of 50 psi (340 kPa) will discharge approximately 100 US gallons per minute.

4) Create Water spell - 2 gallons per caster level per round, (20 gallons per CL per Min.).
1 thre 3 is from RL, #4 would be what we are working with.

IMHO, #2 is the most important, as sprinkler systems would be most like the Creat Water spell. This means that "A typical sprinkler used for industrial manufacturing occupancies discharge about" the same amount of water as a first or second level caster.

A fire hose (which normally takes two men to control), would put out water like a 12th or 13th level caster.

So... the moral of this would be ...
"Sprinkle, don't Spray" LOL ;)

Liberty's Edge

Using it as a shower makes you wonder what temperature is the water? Is it icy cold? Is is hot? Could you choose a range from 33 to 110?

The Exchange

Shar Tahl wrote:
Using it as a shower makes you wonder what temperature is the water? Is it icy cold? Is is hot? Could you choose a range from 33 to 110?

Well... if you were a cleric of a Fire related diety it would likely be hot, but I get your drift here. Also, would it be "pulsing" giveing the water in bursts every 6 seconds (as the spell is cast), and if you are using it as a shower, do you have to concentrate to cast the spell? (Esp. if you can casting it for someone else... do you have to have line of sight to where you are casting it?)


LazarX wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

I'm makin' it rain up in here!

I've always allowed for the spell to be used as described. It makes the whole "help put out the fire" scenario one where small magics can be greatly appreciated.

Just keep in mind though in hosing down a fire scenarios, that's not really that much output compared to a modern fire hose, but might be an improvement over a standard bucket brigade.

I'd say a significant improvement. While the bucket brigade is still forming, the humble first level caster can stand there dumping the equivalent of two bucketfuls of water every round, with essentially pinpoint accuracy.


There is no radius on the spell so it would not rain. It would more likely be a massive bucket of water falling down SMASH on someone's head in one square. The spell needs to be edited for the revised edition to make it clearer, as does the Stone Shape spell, another one I just had a problem with when a player tried to imprison a redcap within stone and I said no. The books are great but just a few things need tidying up and those 2 spells are examples.

Grand Lodge

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bearinjapan wrote:
There is no radius on the spell so it would not rain. It would more likely be a massive bucket of water falling down SMASH on someone's head in one square. The spell needs to be edited for the revised edition to make it clearer, as does the Stone Shape spell, another one I just had a problem with when a player tried to imprison a redcap within stone and I said no. The books are great but just a few things need tidying up and those 2 spells are examples.

Good grief, dude, let dead threads lie in peace.

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