Anyone interested in collaborating a wondrous item for fun?


RPG Superstar™ 2012 General Discussion

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OwlbearRepublic wrote:
I'm not dead set against a saddle that works both to create a mount and to buff an existing one. I do think that such an approach dilutes the concept. It'll eat word-count, too.

Yes it will eat words...hmmm simplifying the language may be helpful too.

OwlbearRepublic wrote:


At this point, I suggest we come up with some really good crunch for the storm theme or drop it. It keeps popping up in various forms, but so far without a really good mechanical hook. If we can come up with one, we should build to that (because the visual impression of a storm steed is really cool). If we can't think of a mechanical hook, we should drop the storm idea and broaden our search.

The mechanical hook could be an area lightning storm while the steed is flying vs. evil aligned creatures or something akin to that. Give it something with pinache'. Or perhaps grant the steed lightning breath once a day something like that maybe even electrical damage when it attacks. Perhaps a wall of fog effect, something with a tied in neat visual. Just my take in the use of the storm effects.

AM


Ok so have we settled on the military exotic saddle then? Next we can move onto powers that involve the stormsteed and the "storm" itself. What would we be willing to add to the saddle that does not make it OP? Limitations on the storm effects or breath as mentioned above? Other ideas?

AM

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

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personally, i like the idea of having one or more minor powers that are constant plus one or more better powers that are limited to once a day or a number of rounds/minutes/whatever per day- that way its always useful but you have those periodic uses that make it really cool (without being op or super expensive).

one potential example (just off the top of my head)- mount can move at normal speed over ice and snow, counts as one size larger for all wind-related effects, and riders can't be blown out of the saddle; 1/day for 10 rounds mount gains fly 60(perfect) and electricity aura (natural attacks do +1d6 electric damage and anything hitting it with natural attack or non-reach melee weapon takes same), if used "outdoors and in a stormy area" the duration extends to 10 minutes.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

I like the idea of connecting this to alignment. I'm thinking lawful, since paladins make up a significant portion of mounted characters and good-aligned items are too difficult to use with antagonists.

How about the following suite of abilities:

Optionally, when the mount moves at least double its movement in a straight line, its feet/hooves thunder, potentially inflicting shaken on chaotic creatures within a certain range.

The mount gains a fly speed of 60 (average). It can fly indefinitely, but must have a running start (as though jumping) to take off.

Once per day, the rider may Smite Chaos while mounted and outdoors. In addition to the usual effects, the rider's attacks gain bonus dice of electricity damage on a successful mounted charge or ride-by attack. While the Smite Chaos is in effect, storm clouds gather overhead, focused on the Smite's target.

A rider who has taken chaotic actions within the last 24 hours may not use the saddle. I think that this is better than an alignment restriction because it creates a roleplaying opportunity (do I want to abide by a code even though I'm chaotic in order to make use of order's power against my foes?) and broadens the item's appeal. You can also place it as treasure on a villain who has a legitimate beef with chaotic PCs, for an extra scoop of delicious irony.

Obviously a lot of this needs quantifying, but how does it sound in outline?


nate lange wrote:

personally, i like the idea of having one or more minor powers that are constant plus one or more better powers that are limited to once a day or a number of rounds/minutes/whatever per day- that way its always useful but you have those periodic uses that make it really cool (without being op or super expensive).

one potential example (just off the top of my head)- mount can move at normal speed over ice and snow, counts as one size larger for all wind-related effects, and riders can't be blown out of the saddle; 1/day for 10 rounds mount gains fly 60(perfect) and electricity aura (natural attacks do +1d6 electric damage and anything hitting it with natural attack or non-reach melee weapon takes same), if used "outdoors and in a stormy area" the duration extends to 10 minutes.

I like these ideas can I get a second vote on each of these? I also thought an arc effect on creatures with evil alignments or law (since storms are a chaotic thing) dealing 1d6 electrical damage. But this is all conceptuals.

AM

Grand Lodge Contributor , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Yeah, Nate's ideas seem alright.

However, I'd advise against the lawful stuff. Storms are usually associated with fickle and/or chaotic deities (Urxehl, Gozreh, etc.) rather than lawful ones. And what are "chaotic actions"? That's even more vague than "evil actions" and always requires DM fiat.


Serpent wrote:

Yeah, Nate's ideas seem alright.

However, I'd advise against the lawful stuff. Storms are usually associated with fickle and/or chaotic deities (Urxehl, Gozreh, etc.) rather than lawful ones. And what are "chaotic actions"? That's even more vague than "evil actions" and always requires DM fiat.

Ok so then we should have two minor powers and one major power. And yes I thought the chaos v. law thing was a bit on the difficulty but it would have made sense in the theory of it, just not superstar perhaps.

The major power should be the stormsteed effect and the two minor powers should encompass an already existing steed. Just my opinion as it makes sense to me anyway.

AM

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

Points of agreement are flight speed (outdoor only? otherwise limited so riders don't fly around in dungeons with it?), some kind of damaging electrical effect and special abilities to function well in a storm (I like nate's idea about resisting wind, though I'd make it a total immunity, since the storm steed should really be able to handle any storm). The theme here seems to be thunderstorms, so I'm not sure the ability to move on ice and snow is necessary, esp. since the steed can now fly.

The electrical aura doesn't do it for me. It's thematic, but mounts take mostly ranged attacks and their natural attacks are of widely varying usefulness; costing an item that adds a d6 of shocking damage to either an emu's beak or all of a dragon's natural attacks could get complicated. :) Certainly it could be done, and I like the visual, but maybe we can think of something more useful across the board. I like the arcing effect the Archmage suggests. Maybe when the rider makes a successful mounted attack, lightning arcs out to secondary targets as per chain lightning?

I also agree with the Archmage about bringing in some kind of alignment aspect. In defense of my own suggestions:

1. Storms do have strong associations as instruments of justice from above (see Zeus and Jupiter, Thor, Yaweh, D&D's Hieroneous and of course the Oncoming Storm). To me, that says lawful.

2. Adjudicating the alignment of an action is core to the game despite being a bit nebulous. Anyone whose game includes a phylactery of faithfulness, a lawful or chaotic cleric, a paladin, a monk or a barbarian needs to know what constitutes chaotic behavior.

3. Personally, I like the idea of a steed who becomes a thundering harbinger of divine retribution. This seems like the sort of gift a deity would grant somebody, which is always cool.

4. Pragmatically, lawful associations function with a broad cross-section of character both good and evil, including paladins and traditional knightly cavaliers, which are the two most common mounted combat classes.

All that said, if the consensus is to ditch alignment and make this a purely storm-focused item, I'm up for that. I'd also be up for a good association. Chaotic makes sense for storms, but excludes aforementioned mounted knights, which leaves us without buyers for our item.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

to me the alignment function seems to dilute the focus a bit (its not what the judges call "nice tight design" imho), unless the item is going to be tied to a specific aligned storm god (but in golarion they're pretty much all chaotic, except the infernal dukes).

i think that the best bet is to choose- either make an alignment based saddle (Crusader's Saddle?) or make a storm themed saddle. of course, that's just my opinion (vote).

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

nate lange wrote:


i think that the best bet is to choose- either make an alignment based saddle (Crusader's Saddle?) or make a storm themed saddle. of course, that's just my opinion (vote).

It is probably best to put it to a vote at this point. Personally, I think that a storm of divine judgment is a sufficiently unified image and idea. It will actually make the damaging effect easier to implement, since it gives us a mechanical descriptor to determine the effect's targets if we're going to do arcing lightning or whatever. My vote: the saddle summons a lawful (or maybe good) aligned storm that carries the steed aloft and pours righteous thunder down on the wicked. Saddle of the Vengeful Storm? Saddle of the Storm Knight? Reins of the Thundering Charger?


Random power ideas:

Spoiler:
1 three times per day saddle grants the shocking burst quality to a weapon used in a mounted charge attack

2 three times per day saddle grants the thundering quality to a weapon used in a mounted charge attack that threatens a critical; power is activated as a free action after critical is threatened but before rolling to confirm

3 when placed on mount, grants mount and rider resistance against electric and/or sonic

4 once per day as a standard action rider may summon a cyclone per the Wizard Elemental Air power as a wizard of CL level

5 (I'd swear there's a similar effect somewhere we could reference to cut down on word count on this one, but I've no idea where) once per day as a full round action mount and rider may transform into a living lightning bolt, a 5' wide line effect with a range equal to double the mount's movement. All creatures within effect take CLd6 damage (Ref DC 10+1/2CL for half). Mount and rider "reform" in the last square of the line effect.

6 once per day the saddle allows mount and rider to making a lightning-fast charge attack. This attack provokes no attacks of opportunity due to movement; furthermore, the speed of the attack leaves a thunderclap in their wake, causing all creatures whom the mount and rider pass within 10 feet of to take 1/2CLd6 sonic damage and be deafened for one minute (Fort DC 10+1/2CL for half damage and deafened for one round).

7 once per day as a full-round action the saddle allows mount and rider to transform into a howling wind, knocking enemies to ground. In a 20' wide line effect equal in length to double the mount's movement, either A) all creatures are subjected to a hurricane force wind blowing in the direction of movement (quicker and easier, but probably less effective) or B) all creatures are subjected to a bull rush (again, pushed in direction of movement) which provokes no attacks of opportunity and uses a single combat maneuver check against all creatures at the rider's CMB + the mount's STR modifier (more figuring involved but probably more effective against higher CR opponents). Mount and rider reform in empty square at end of effect range.

Maybe can use each of the last three charge attack powers once a day? I really like charge attack powers for this item because if you're a mounted combat adventurer, then you're probably all about charging opponents:)

I'd vote against alignment-based powers, just to increase the utility of the item, especially to mounted combatants of classes that don't get special mounts, i.e. fighters, barbarians, and rangers.

Also, I like the sound of a stormsteed saddle better than a saddle of the stormsteed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

goodwicki wrote:

Random power ideas:

5 (I'd swear there's a similar effect somewhere we could reference to cut down on word count on this one, but I've no idea where) once per day as a full round action mount and rider may transform into a living lightning bolt, a 5' wide line effect with a range equal to double the mount's movement. All creatures within effect take CLd6 damage (Ref DC 10+1/2CL for half). Mount and rider "reform" in the last square of the line effect.

i believe you're either thinking of the spell ride the lightning or the stormborn sorcerer power of the same name.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

it might be a good idea to try to establish some consensus on the price/power level we're targeting... it sounds like there's a lot of good idea floating around but it could get pricey quick. if it grants unlimited flight that's like 54k alone (based on Wings of Flying, which is only average maneuverability) and i like the ride the lightning effect but to mimic a 9th lvl spell 1/day is 61k (though if it lasts 1 round instead of rounds/level that'll obviously further reduce the cost).

it'll be difficult (i think) to try to compare possible powers until we have some rough idea of how powerful/expensive the final product should be.


That's definitely the spell I was thinking of - didn't realize it was 9th level, thus putting the item at CL 17th. Still, useable one round with no electric immunity should put the kibosh on the price for that power (actual effect really just combining a lightning bolt and a dimension door).

As for comparing possibe powers, we can either come up with powers based on the price we want, or come up with a price based on the powers we want. Thus far I've been assuming the latter;)

Grand Lodge Contributor , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

goodwicki wrote:

Random power ideas:

** spoiler omitted **...

Some thoughts on the 7 powers listed. Feel free to disagree, this is just my humble opinion. :)

1-3 are thematically appropriate powers, but they lack the Superstar mojo because they're existing equipment qualities and therefore not unique powers. (The elecricity aura also does pretty much the same thing as an amulet that adds weapon qualities to natural attacks, so I vote against it.)

4 is something I'd also advise against. The judges have said they don't like wondrous items that do the same thing as a class feature.

5 is going to the right direction, but as has been pointed out, similar spells already exist.

6 is even better. Personally, I don't like wondrous items that deal damage, but the effect is unique enough.

7 is by far the best power that you suggested. As far as I know, it doesn't replicate any existing spell, and it is smart in that it references rules that already exist (but are generally used for a different purpose) so you don't have to spell out what the exact effects are. This, gentlemen, I believe is the kind of stuff the judges want to see.

I'd say that we should make power #7 the core power of this item. Immunity or vs wind effects (or that your mount counts as 1 or 2 sizes larger for the purpose of determining how wind effects affect it) would be a nice power to go with it, so it'd have something that's always active, and something that has a x/day limit. An x/day flying power would also be cool, especially if you can activate power #7 and flight at the same time if you so desire, or separately.

I also vote against any alignment-based stuff. I want this item to be useful to fierce barbarians and zealot paladins alike.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

i didn't mean that we should set a price and reverse engineer the item- just that there is a big difference between designing a cool saddle for 7th level and designing a cool saddle for 15th level. i think both can be done at a "superstar" level but i think it'll be easier to evaluate which powers to include if we're on the same page regarding approximate power. for example: unlimited flight has been mentioned several times, its obviously cooler than flight for x time per day, but its also dramatically more expensive, so we need some shared standard by which to judge which is more appropriate for the item.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

goodwicki wrote:

Random power ideas:

** spoiler omitted **...

I, too, like 7. I'd prefer it as a powerful wind that accompanies the mount and bears it aloft, rather than the rider and mount literally transforming... the transformation angle raises the question of whether you can use this effect to get through cracks in walls, bypass wards targeting your physical traits, ignore portcullises, etc. Otherwise, the CMB version looks good to me. Like serpent, I think that immunity to wind effects would be cool and useful.

As to flight: I say make it unlimited and accept that this is an expensive item. There aren't many magic items for mounts, so I like the idea of inventing the big-ticket item for a mounted character's WBL. That said, you've got to deal with the fact that some special mounts are getting flight from elsewhere and neither need nor want to pay for flight. Upthread I had the idea of requiring a running start (complete with gathering wind) to take off. Perhaps we could make the flight unlimited but throw on such a restriction to keep the price down a bit. Flight that is effectively unusable in tight confines and indoors should cost substantially less.


Ok so what we have here for powers is Unlimited flying, wind resistance (I'd vote for two category sizes high makes it almost impossible to move the steed/rider with wind) and it makes sense based on the item.

So unlimited flying is the major power and wind resistance I would consider a major power too except that it appears that the benefits and utility are limited in the nature of wind itself. So we can make that one a minor power. So onto stormy stuff which is the last minor (or two powers). A combat related one and maybe another defense related one would be fine from my perspective.

Also has anyone agreed that a Griffon Stormsteed sounded cool to use for a visual concept?

AM

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

goodwicki's power #7 seems to have several votes- and i'd vote for it as well. if we're going for a big ticket item i think the ability to pass through some obstacles while in 'wind-form' is pretty cool, and it wouldn't eat up too many words if we liken it to gaseous form or wind walk.

as for the mechanics... i'm a little worried about the way they're written up in the rough draft. i agree that the hurricane force wind is probably underpowered, but the CMB alternative may not be the solution. it raises questions we'd need to answer about bull rushing multiple opponents (like are you taking the stacking -4 penalty). also (as, i believe, goodwicki himself pointed out in the 'nearly-submitted' forum) there is no precedent for a wondrous item that uses the wearer's (or its rider's) BAB or CMB- it should probably be a static effect. that could be accomplished by giving it a set CMB and clarifying the effects of multiple targets or by setting a DC and allowing a save or STR check to avoid being knocked prone or blown away (as the wind effect).


Ok so we have three votes for this--

goodwicki wrote:


7. once per day as a full-round action the saddle allows mount and rider to transform into a howling wind, knocking enemies to ground. In a 20' wide line effect equal in length to double the mount's movement, either
A) all creatures are subjected to a hurricane force wind blowing in the direction of movement (quicker and easier, but probably less effective) or
B) all creatures are subjected to a bull rush (again, pushed in direction of movement) which provokes no attacks of opportunity and uses a single combat maneuver check against all creatures at the rider's CMB + the mount's STR modifier (more figuring involved but probably more effective against higher CR opponents). Mount and rider reform in empty square at end of effect range.

My biggest issue here is these effects seem like they could be simplified from my perspective. Transfroming into a howling wind does seem cool in theory, but think about debris pelting your cohorts... Also think about a gust of wind from the "wings" of the steed or maybe a lightning stomp area of effect for the already existing steed. There is two parts here to this item that was discussed:

1. the steed already exists as a companion to the item owner
2. the steed can be "summoned" from the saddle as in the Griffon reference I mentioned earlier

So are we keeping the item with this or scrapping it to make a "summon steed saddle" with effects? I was not sure if we had voted on the two part effects or not.

Also I think a pillar effect like a tornado seems cool as well. I know the slot is a non-slot and the aura for me at least appears to conjuration and I would have to say that it appears to be a strong aura from our dialog.

AM

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

nate lange wrote:

goodwicki's power #7 seems to have several votes- and i'd vote for it as well. if we're going for a big ticket item i think the ability to pass through some obstacles while in 'wind-form' is pretty cool, and it wouldn't eat up too many words if we liken it to gaseous form or wind walk.

as for the mechanics... i'm a little worried about the way they're written up in the rough draft. i agree that the hurricane force wind is probably underpowered, but the CMB alternative may not be the solution. it raises questions we'd need to answer about bull rushing multiple opponents (like are you taking the stacking -4 penalty). also (as, i believe, goodwicki himself pointed out in the 'nearly-submitted' forum) there is no precedent for a wondrous item that uses the wearer's (or its rider's) BAB or CMB- it should probably be a static effect. that could be accomplished by giving it a set CMB and clarifying the effects of multiple targets or by setting a DC and allowing a save or STR check to avoid being knocked prone or blown away (as the wind effect).

Turning into wind isn't overpowered, but it doesn't seem quite right for this item's theme and utility. I think the visual of a steed charging in the hurricane blast, gales blowing enemies away in its path, is much cooler than the mount disappearing from the field to turn into wind. The utility of gaseous form is minimal for mounted combat and a totally incidental side-benefit from the purpose of the power, which is hurricane bull-rushing your foes.

I agree with using the wind mechanics rather than bull rush as the basis of the power. However, I'd really like this power to scale (since we're not awash in mounted combat items for every level of play), and that's what CMB vs. CMD is for. I don't see a good compromise here. Maybe include and note a special +X bonus to the DC of the wind resistance checks, just to show potential crafters that there's room to scale the item up if they so desire, rather than having to accept the flat 15 DC? We'll want to choose a final price before we set that bonus, since it'll be best balanced against the Str of enemies within the appropriate CR range.

(I'd love to get a Ride check involved in the blow-away mechanics, but I think the mechanics would be too kludgy. That would be my solution in my home game, though.)

Eliminating bull rush frees us to use the wind more creatively. I'd like the option to blow enemies away perpendicular to the charge rather than along its path. That avoids a silly goblin pile-up at the end of the blast.

With unlimited flight (outdoor only or limited to a running start), this big storm charge once per day and immunity to wind effects, I think we've probably got enough. It's tempting to toss in a thunderous hooves effect or a lightning attack, but my designer sense is tingling at the prospect of giving four magical abilities to a single saddle. I think we're good.

Archmage: My vote is that we make this an item for an existing mount only. Also that we leave out the griffon visuals, since our target buyers are people who are A) already riding a griffon or B) think that their bad-ass mount is much cooler than a griffon. :)


How about the saddle instantly brings a live animal to an undead state when it is killed....say in battle. Now the animal continues to fight one and you're not steedless in battle. Especially useful if say flying a griffon...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

xaaon,that's an interesting ability, but (imho) its pretty off-track for the item as it seems to be shaping up. there were a couple posts earlier with powers more in that vein and if you wanted to cook up something on your own and post it here i'm sure nobody would mind (you might even get a few critiques).

i'd vote with owlbear for abandoning the summoning (or possibly illusion) aspect of the griffon. it's another thing that kind of dilutes the focus and (unless it was another major power) it wouldn't really benefit anyone interested in the item. as for switching to a DC for the wind-charge, i didn't mean to just adopt the DC 15 STR check... i was thinking more like borrowing from the water blast (aquatic/seaborn sorcerer) power and allowing a reflex save (DC 10+1/2CL of item+min stat mod) to avoid being moved 5' [parallel or perpendicular (away from center) to the mounts movement] and knocked prone.

if we're generally agreed on flight, wind resistance/immunity, and some form of wind-charge, i think the requirements would/could probably be wind walk and gust of wind and the aura would be strong evocation and transmutation. also, the focus is really wind not storms so maybe Windrider's Saddle instead of Stormsteed's Saddle?

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

nate lange wrote:
as for switching to a DC for the wind-charge, i didn't mean to just adopt the DC 15 STR check... i was thinking more like borrowing from the water blast (aquatic/seaborn sorcerer) power and allowing a reflex save (DC 10+1/2CL of item+min stat mod) to avoid being moved 5' [parallel or perpendicular (away from center) to the mounts movement] and knocked prone.

I think we should take the wind mechanics wholesale and just bump the DC up. The wind rules include lots of stuff that's potentially cool but too wordy to fit into the item description (for example, you could ready your action to run across the path of a charging Huge creature and check its movement, despite it being too big to knock down; likewise, you could send flying creatures tumbling out of the air, blow out guards' torches, etc.)

nate lange wrote:
if we're generally agreed on flight, wind resistance/immunity, and some form of wind-charge, i think the requirements would/could probably be wind walk and gust of wind and the aura would be strong evocation and transmutation. also, the focus is really wind not storms so maybe Windrider's Saddle instead of Stormsteed's Saddle?

I'd replace wind walk with fly. That's because it's a more accessible spell, but mostly because I don't like the mount actually turning into wind. For similar Rule of Cool reasons, I'd prefer to keep the storm theme, even though all of the mechanics are strictly about wind and not storms. We can make the storm connection with flavor, and it's just so much cooler.

Grand Lodge Contributor , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Wind walk is Cleric 6 / Druid 7, so if we use the smallest possible CL (=11), the aura should be moderate not strong, right?

Blowing enemies away perpendicular to the direction of movement sounds good to me, but what determines whether they are pushed to the left or the right? There should be a clause about there being an equal chance of being pushed to the left or right.

I also vote against the griffon thingy. The item will be better and more focused if all the powers are related to wind.

And yeah, since the powers are now wind-based not storm-based, the name should be something like the windrider's saddle.

Anyway, we're running out of time, so we should start actually writing the item. Should we perhaps divide the description into four parts (appearance + three powers) between the most active people in this thread, i.e. myself, OwlbearRepublic, nate lange and AM, and everyone can comment on the pieces of text? I think the order of presentation should be apprearance > wind resistance > flight > wind charge.


All of my listed ideas were spur of the moment, which is maybe why they seem to get better as they go along, but in any event I'm glad so many seem to like 7. In regards to 7:

Spoiler:
nate lange wrote:

goodwicki's power #7 seems to have several votes- and i'd vote for it as well. if we're going for a big ticket item i think the ability to pass through some obstacles while in 'wind-form' is pretty cool, and it wouldn't eat up too many words if we liken it to gaseous form or wind walk.

as for the mechanics... i'm a little worried about the way they're written up in the rough draft. i agree that the hurricane force wind is probably underpowered, but the CMB alternative may not be the solution. it raises questions we'd need to answer about bull rushing multiple opponents (like are you taking the stacking -4 penalty). also (as, i believe, goodwicki himself pointed out in the 'nearly-submitted' forum) there is no precedent for a wondrous item that uses the wearer's (or its rider's) BAB or CMB- it should probably be a static effect. that could be accomplished by giving it a set CMB and clarifying the effects of multiple targets or by setting a DC and allowing a save or STR check to avoid being knocked prone or blown away (as the wind effect).

My basic thought was that if using the CMB mechanic the item would functionally just allow the character to make a separate bull rush attempt against every creature within the area of effect with the mount's STR modifier as a bonus. The single roll was to cut down on dice rolling. Doing it with wind is flavor explanation. Less of a power scaling with the user and more of a power allowing the character to use an ability they already have against multiple targets. That said, allowing someone to make a separate bull rush attempt against every creature in a 20' wide and approximately 120' long line effect is probably a bit much.

OwlbearRepublic wrote:
I, too, like 7. I'd prefer it as a powerful wind that accompanies the mount and bears it aloft, rather than the rider and mount literally transforming... I think the visual of a steed charging in the hurricane blast, gales blowing enemies away in its path, is much cooler than the mount disappearing from the field to turn into wind.

Agreed.

OwlbearRepublic wrote:
I'd like the option to blow enemies away perpendicular to the charge rather than along its path. That avoids a silly goblin pile-up at the end of the blast.
ArchMageMyrrendor wrote:
Also I think a pillar effect like a tornado seems cool as well.

Maybe something like a full-round action which creates a whirlwind around the user, blowing them away? Or maybe even a 1 round tornado effect, with those caught in it being thrown out of the tornado rather than sucked further in? I'm thinking something like the end of the Adventures of Baron Munchausen against the Turks, where he and his horse spin in place and blow away the Turkish cavalry.

In general, I also vote for the saddle buffing an existing mount rather than creating one, if only because I have no idea how to price an item that not only allows you to fly but also functions as an unkillable mount.

Both suggested names sound good to me, but I lean towards the wind-based naming. Not really a ton of storm effects anymore, plus leaves open variant saddles, such as the windsteed, thundersteed, lightningsteed, and uber expensive stormsteed saddles, or the windrider, waverider, earthglider, and firewalker saddles.

We could also each come up with individual versions of the item loosely agreed upon, as I do like Hodge Podge's suggested method of

Hodge Podge wrote:

3) Everyone writes final version with Name, Aura, CL, Slot, Price, Weight, Construction Requirements, and Cost

4) Vote on best finished item
5) Bicker and nitpick

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

We've got so much consensus and so little time that it's probably best for people to just start writing versions of the item. That'll also permit us to see various answers to unresolved issues (like wind vs. storm theme and potential limitations on flight). I'll write a version soon.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

Hodge Podge wrote:

Haha, we should probably make round one of this go for another day or two. :p

Anthony Adam wrote:

Slotless, hmmmm, how about

Ruthless Diaper of the Witch Queen's Daughter

? :D

Totally a waist slot item.

No, it's a waste slot item.

DO HO HO-hem-hem. Carry on.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Nicolas Quimby wrote:
Hodge Podge wrote:

Haha, we should probably make round one of this go for another day or two. :p

Anthony Adam wrote:

Slotless, hmmmm, how about

Ruthless Diaper of the Witch Queen's Daughter

? :D

Totally a waist slot item.

No, it's a waste slot item.

DO HO HO-hem-hem. Carry on.

No, it's a projectile weapon with "splash" damage :P

"He grins wickedly as he pulls from his backpack something green and steaming... which he then throws with devastating accuracy into the face of your party mage who falls to the floor retchng and gagging, totally incapacitated."

Roll for initiative.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

I've been lurking since this thread started and like what I see. I will use this as inspiration for one of my practice items this year :)

I look forward to everyone's item. Now is time to write them. Good luck.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

Stormcharger's Saddle
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot body; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 30 lbs.
Description
This black leather military saddle with electrum details smells of the plains before a thunderstorm. Both the mount and the rider using this saddle ignore all effects from wind and rain (including concealment, Perception penalties, and penalties to ranged combat). Natural lightning never strikes them, barring magical intervention. In addition, the mount may fly at a speed of 60 feet (average maneuverability) while outdoors.
Once per day, with a crack of thunder, the rider may call forth a 5-ft.-radius emanation of tornado-force wind that blows directly away from the mount for the duration of the turn. When an object or creature occupies an affected square, it immediately suffers the effects of tornado-force wind. Creatures make Strength or Fly checks to avoid being checked or blown away only once, the first time that they occupy an affected square. Such checks are at a -5 penalty. The mount may act normally for the duration of this effect, but may move only in a straight line.
Only creatures anatomically suited to bearing a saddle can benefit from this item.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, fickle winds, fly; Cost 30,000 gp

Points of interest:
Pricing this is tough because mounts vary greatly. Some can already fly; some are bigger and therefore have more adjacent squares for the wind effect; some are small and can fit in dungeons, whereas others are too big and will find the "outdoors only" restriction on flight to be a non-issue. Ultimately, I decided that the flight was substantially weaker than wings of flying in any case, but that the battlefield control possibilities put this item in a slightly higher bracket, toe-to-toe with the carpet of flying, which lacks the 1/day special ability but beats the stormcharger's saddle on utility.

I found only one third-party precedent for slotting a saddle. How do you mechanically define the fact that a barbarian can't just toss this thing on his own back to get its powers? I took a stab in the last line, but polymorph would still screw me. I want it to be viable for dragon mounts, which complicates things.

The use of emanation language raises the question of whether this effect should be a spell and not an item. If this were my submission, I'd be crossing my finger to get a Rule #27 exemption, because honestly, this wind charge thing could easily be a spell.

I swapped out gust of wind for fickle winds mainly to get a higher-level spell into what turned out to be a big-ticket item. It's a fairly good fit, though.

Ideal user: A mounted barbarian/druid war-chief who summons a storm over the enemy's camp and then charges in fearless of the lightning to tear through their lines and slay their leader.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Spotted just the one spelling (which may be an American / British English thing) but just in case

"Manoeuvrability"

Also watch your comma's and ownerships (if that's the correct term)

"Once per day, with a crack of thunder, the rider may call forth a 5-ft.-radius emanation..."

This I think means that the act of summon repeals with the sound of thunder rather than the rider needs to crack thunder in order to summon.

Grin.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

Anthony Adam wrote:

Spotted just the one spelling (which may be an American / British English thing) but just in case

"Manoeuvrability"

This is an American/British thing. The British version is much classier, evoking the word "oeuvre" and making me think of somebody flying around in a museum.

Quote:

Also watch your comma's and ownerships (if that's the correct term)

"Once per day, with a crack of thunder, the rider may call forth a 5-ft.-radius emanation..."

This I think means that the act of summon repeals with the sound of thunder rather than the rider needs to crack thunder in order to summon.

I don't think there's a grammatical error, since I avoided the participle "cracking". And surely, the reader must be expected to know that when "with a series of loud bangs, he fired into the room," the silly gunman was not standing there yelling "BANG! BANG! BANG!" That said, if it looks ambiguous to its first reader, it needs a rewrite. Let's say....

"Once per day, the rider may call forth a 5-ft.-radius emanation of tornado-force wind centered on the mount. It appears with a peal of thunder and blows directly away from the mount for the duration of the turn."

Thanks for the feedback. BTW, I had your guide to the round 1 template open in another tab while I wrote this item. Nice work.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

well,
here's my stab at it.
-

Spoiler:

Saddle, Windrider's
Aura strong evocation; CL 17th
Slot chest (see text); Price 62,000 gp; Weight 30 lbs.

Description
This exquisitely crafted exotic military saddle is embossed with images of swirling and gusting winds. It can be worn by any medium or large quadruped, occupying the creature's chest slot. The Windrider's Saddle allows the wearer and its rider to ignore the effects of winds of any speed. It also grants the wearer the ability to fly. Outdoors, the creature gains a fly speed of 60 feet (perfect maneuverability). If used indoors or underground, the creature instead gains a fly speed of 30 feet (poor maneuverability) and random gusts of wind harmlessly scatter dust and debris within 5 feet of the creature while airborn.

Once per day as a full round action the wearer can rush forward in a furious gale. The creature can move in a straight line up to twice its normal movement or participate in a charge. Swirling winds move with it creating a 20 foot diameter cylindrical area of tornado force wind that begins where the creature’s movement started and ends wherever it stopped. This wind lasts for one round. If the movement is part of a charge, the attacker may make a free bull rush against the target if the attack succeeds. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity and receives a +8 circumstance bonus as howling wind buffets the target.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, gust of wind, winds of vengeance; Cost 31,000 gp

i debated the cost a bit... it might still be slightly off, but i couldn't figure out a better number. i think its clearly superior to wings of flying (54k), but i couldn't justify pricing it as high as a robe of the archmagi (75k)... so i think this is the right ballpark. i picked 62k because i felt like it was better than a 10'x10' flying carpet (60k) but not as good as an item that gives +4 to 3 stats (64k), but i'm open to suggestions for a better number.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka OwlbearRepublic

Here are some notes about the differences between my item and nate's:

Spoiler:

1. I kept the storm theme, whereas nate ditched it for wind.
2. nate's saddle uses the chest slot, while mine uses the body slot.
3. nate's item is usable by medium and large quadrapeds, while mind is usable by any creature anatomically suited to bear a saddle. This is significant because my item is wearable by, say, a chocobo-like mount or a huge mount carrying a large rider, while nate's is more strictly limited.
4. The Stormcharger's Saddle confers immunity to the effects of wind, rain and natural lightning, while the Windrider's Saddle helps only against wind. (It isn't called out in the text, but I assume that nate's item negates all penalties, including those to ranged combat and Perception, just as mine does.)
5. The Windrider's Saddle grants a 60' (perfect) fly speed outdoors and a 30' (poor) fly speed indoors. The Stormcharger's Saddle grants flight only outdoors: 60' (average).
6. The Stormcharger's Saddle creates a 5' emanation around the mount as a standard action for the rider. The emanation subjects all creatures and objects who come adjacent to the mount to tornado-force winds. The effect lasts only during the mount's turn, during which it may act normally, but move only in a straight line. Creatures take a -5 to Str and Fly checks to avoid being blown away or checked.
The Windrider's Saddle permits the mount to take a double move in a straight line or participate in a charge as a full action for the mount. This movement creates a 20' diameter cylinder of tornado-force wind along its path. This wind persists for one round. If the mount participates in a charge during this effect, the attacker makes a free bull rush with a +8 bonus against the target.

My thoughts:

Spoiler:
The reduced fly speed indoors might just make the item more widely useful. Part of me thinks that most riders will get flight for their mounts from another source... but if they're dishing out 60k+ gp for a magic saddle, maybe they shouldn't have to.

The storm thing is purely a matter of taste. Personally, I find elemental themes a little generic. It's not really a design decision, though I think that if we keep the storm thing then my extra environmental immunities are important to make fighting in a storm viable.

nate's wind charge is a highly potent utility power while mine is more of a combat maneuver. nate's wind tunnel is huge (20 ft. diameter and 120' long), has a one round duration to block projectiles and such, and doesn't even cost the rider an action. The DC to resist tornado-force wind, however, is only 15 for a Str check. Monsters at level 10+ are likely to make that check handily much of the time. My effect applies only to adjacent creatures and does not persist to block movement, ranged attacks, etc., but forces a penalty to the Str check that makes it much more likely to knock down or check level-appropriate enemies. It's a standard action for the rider, leaving the mount free to act. I liked the idea of the rider being able to charge with this attack, but at the time it seemed a bit much in terms of action economy. Maybe we should make the effect a full-round action for the rider, but permit him to make a mounted charge as part of that action?

Personally, I like the symmetry of making all pushed creatures subject to a true wind effect, rather than having a separate bull rush effect against the target at the end of the charge.

Looking forward to seeing more versions and more critiques.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

thanks, owlbear.

i also like the storm flavor but since basically all of the powers were wind related i felt like this was a little bit... cleaner, design-wise (like you said, its really a personal preference). i added the indoor flight purposefully because both versions are drastically less useful inside- and they're pretty expensive items to do so little in a relatively common environment. for the bull rush... i thought it was a good way to add a little offense to what is largely a utility power (also, technically the way i wrote the power the target of the charge would be outside the area of effect- since it ends where the movement stops).

i liked your item and i'm looking forward to seeing a few more :)


I like these two saddles. Each one has its own flair for utility, its broad use for all classes (mounted combat classes get the best of them though, IMHO). I will be posting mine once I have tweaked the language a bit. Thank you guys for working on this, it was a lot of fun and it makes me proud to be part of such an eclectic group of gamers! Game on!

AM

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