@AndIMustMask: Nice Idea.
I don't think that works, you're selecting a normally arcane Wiz/Sorc spell, but it's becoming one of your (oracle) spells known.
Either that becomes a divine oracle spell, or you will be unable to cast it with your oracle slots,
Damn, this sounds right. But I am still not 100% sure.
:-(
I don't see why you need to take DD levels for 'roleplay'.
So it boosts your Nat Armor. How does your exact Nat Armor score affect roleplay? It doesn't.
So it adds a bite to your claws. You can get a bite other ways,
and you just 'fluff' yourself has having fangs even if mechanically it isn't a bite attack.
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Posting my build for your viewing pleasure:
Half-Orc Crossblooded (Draconic/Orc) Sorc 3/Barb 2/DD 2
15-Point Buy
Str: 16 (Str +2 from DD)
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 7
Cha: 18 (Half-Orc Bonus and attribute increase at lvl 4)
Took the Sacred Tattoo racial trait for the +1 to all saves
Take Lesser Fiend Totem for your rage power
Feats: Eschew Materials, Arcane Strike, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Natural Weapon (Claws)
This was one of the sweet spots of the build. Buff with Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person, Claws, Bite, Rage, and Arcane Strike. On a Full-Round attack, you do:
2 Claws +9 (1d8+7)
Bite +9 (1d8+10)
Gore +9 (2d6+7)
Throw in Power Attack for added damage shenanigans. Make sure you throw on Mage Armor before wading into combat.
Now on the other side, cast a Burning Hands and it looks something like this:
Burning Hands 4d4+8 DC 15 Ref
The Ref save is kinda low, but still, you have the possibility of hitting 6 enemies at once for decent damage even on a save.
If you want to improve your saves. You can use potions of bestow grace if the character is good aligned. Does wonders for my Pitborn Barb 3/Sorc 2/DD 5.
lawful good. 1 round/level.
Wow, that is nice...
I'd even say it should be a staple for Oracles/Rage Prophets, especially Samsarans who can add that spell to their Oracle list.
Pretty much any Sorceror/Bard/Ninja/ETC(CHA-based) should like Potions of that at higher levels as well.
isnt that 3rd party though?
edit: to clarify, i dont mean to imply that being 3pp makes it bad, just that some folks might not have access to it.
also im unsure as to whether cabalist works off of cha or in, as it doesnt really clarify in the AT's page (one could argue that since it's taking the bard progression it also runs off of cha, but the other side could say that it only gets the spells known/gains the same as a bard, not changing it's casting stat).
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Hey all, after taking a break from the boards for a few months, I decided to do a quick update of the guide including some racial options and concerning the new FAQ that allows Spell Like Abilities to allow one to qualify for prerequisites for Prestige classes. I don't do an extensive treatment of the subject, but it does alter things somewhat as far as the color ratings are concerned.
In short, full intelligence casting classes are improved by this because of the DD's bonus spellcasting levels work for any arcane class, not just the spontaneous ones. Magus becomes much more workable and Wizards who are going Eldrich Knight have a good 4-8 level dip going for them without jumping into any sorcerer levels.
Full BAB classes are boosted by it too, for a 4 level dip in DD without having to take a level of Sorcerer to start can give them a +4 to Str, a +3 to NA and good HP progression, Emergency Natural Weapons and a breath weapon for swarms. All in all, not a bad dip.
Eventually, I plan to make an update to the Mythic path, but it's hard to say if I'll have time. I've just managed to update for the ARG, so you can see how far behind I already am. Perhaps after the holidays, but I'm not making any promises.
Chow for now, and happy hunting.
Good to see you back, Osterik and thanks again for all your fine work.
The SLA changes make some pretty legit builds possible now, that's for sure.
Someday, someday people will spell my name correctly. But, you know, I think that if it didn't happen, I would think I was in the wrong place...
Very Cool Guide.
However; it was my understanding that Natural Armor bonus' do not Stack unless otherwise noted.
Looking at the races; any race with a natural armor bonus would just overlap the NA granted by the Draconic Bloodline. The NA granted in the Dragon Disciple Prestige class specifically states that it stacks with existing bonus'.
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Trying to get some feedback on feat/trait selection for PFS character. I'm going for the beast caster type, so trying to melee with some touch spells being cast for attacks.
What are some good traits?
What are some good feats?
Is cross Blooded worth it?
Is Eldridge Heritage worth it?
DragonFiend of Vengeance
Paladin
Oaths of Vengeance, Wyrms, Fiends
NOTE: Taking the Oaths for Flavor only, cannot take them functionally by RAW
Possible Sacred Servant of Sarenrae w/ Sun (Light sub) Domain
NOTE: I picked this deity mostly out of her domain of redemption and went w/ the Sacred Servant as she is my savior. Trying to go with Sun (Light) mostly for Faerie Fire Spell.
Sorcerer
(Green or Black) Dragon Blood Line
NOTE: While I am aware that area effects are better than lines, I think the black's CE alignment meshes well with the Demon's CE and the character polarized rebellion.
Eldridge Heritage (Arcane) after bonus DD Feat? Not sure if it's worth picking up.
STR 15 +2 17
DEX 12 12
CON 12 12
INT 12 -2 10
WIS 10 10
CHA 15 +2 17
Skills:
Pal 1st: Know (Arcana), Know (Religion)
Pal 2nd: Know (Arcana), Know (Religion)
Pal 3rd: Know (Arcana), Know (Religion)
Pal 4th: Know (Arcana), Spellcraft
Sorc 5th: Know (Religion), Perception
DD 6th: Know (Arcana), Perception
DD 7th: Know (Religion), Perception
DD 8th: Know (Arcana), Perception
DD 9th: Know (Religion), Perception
DD 10th:Know (Arcana), Perception
DD 11th:Know (Religion), Perception
DD 12th:Know (Arcana), Perception
Abilities:
Pal 1st: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil (1/Day)
Feat:
Pal 2nd: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Pal 3rd: Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy
Feat:
Pal 4th: Channel Wrath (OoV), Spells, Sun (Light) Domain (SacServ)
Sorc 5th: Draconic Bloodline Arcana, Dragon Claws
Feat:
DD 6th: Blood of Dragons, Natural Armor +1
DD 7th: Abil Boost (+2STR), Blood Feat (Toughness), Dragon Bite
Sorc3: Dragon Resistances (5 acid, +1 Natural Armor)
Feat:
DD 8th: Breath Weapon
DD 9th: Abil Boost (+2STR) Natural Armor +1
Sorc5: Claws = Magic
Feat:
DD 10th: Blindsense 30ft, Bloodline Feat ()
DD 11th: Abil Boost (+2CON)
Sorc7: Claws Inc a Damage Step
Feat:
DD 12th: Dragon Form 1/day, Natural Armor Inc
Draconic Bonus Feats: Blind-Fight , Great Fortitude , Improved Initiative , Power Attack , Quicken Spell , Skill Focus (Fly), Skill Focus (Knowledge [arcana]), Toughness .
Revisiting this awesome guide last night and saw the "Anything?-" entry under inevitables. Can anybody point me to the ruling you guys are mentioning and possibly explain why any non caster character can qualify now?
Thanks!
Having just finished playing a Dragon Disciple from levels 2 to 16, I want to say many thanks for this guide - it was great help.
I did notice one thing that may be a mistake - In the section regarding taking two levels of ranger with feral combat training. The text of feral combat training indicates that you choose ONE of your natural attacks to apply the feats effects to. This means that by RAW, you not only need to take weapon focus for each natural weapon, but you would also need to take Feral Weapon Training for each one - if your DM will allow it. (Many feats have a line in the "special" section which states that you can take them multiple times and thus many DMs interpret the lack of such text to mean that the feat can only be taken once.)
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
hello Oterisk! thank you for your awesome guide!!!
have you already read something from the new Advanced Class Guide?
the bloodrager is a mix of a sorcerer and a barbarian, and he get bloodline of course! draconic bloodline give you claw forever, not NxRounds, or only when bloodraging(aka raging) always! he as full Bab, he rages, gets a lot of interesting abilities, he has a crossblooded archetype, another one who let him cast touch spells he knows when hitting a enemy with a manouver and so on!!! only downside, and maybe a big one for those who wanna build also the spellcaster side, is that he only get spells like a ranger, so cap 4th level, getting his first spell at level 4but i think that for a bestial/melee build is really really fantastic!
The part about having claws forever has been bugging me, according to the text it says:
"When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager#TOC-Bloodline
Does this means the claws, resistances, breathe weapon and wings only apply during bloodrage?
It does indeed. Except the level 20 power ofcourse, which specifies you keep the abilities outside of the bloodrage.
I am on the fence still if Bloodrager and DD (should) stack. With sorcerer you could go more gish, but with bloodrager there really is no point, xcept a straight power boost. Losing -3 bab en 3 caster levels but gaining +4 strength, +2 con/int, + 4 natural AC, better wings, a bite and a minutes/level FotD II outside of bloodrage seems... very worth it.
On the other hand, DD remains awesome
Ah, I have some really old comments. If you still want answers, I'll give them, but I bet the issues aren't terribly relevant anymore.
Mech E, Thanks for the input. I will take a close look at that when I do my update.
I'm hoping there will be a FAQ concerning Bloodragers. I've got a bit of updating to do, but the Bloodrager is really awesome even if it doesn't really stack well with DD (although it doesn't seem quite right if it doesn't). It would be nice to read a FAQ, but until that happens I might have to include both sides of the argument and let it be the GM's call.
Yeah, as for the Bloodrager itself the bonuses are nice but they only occur when you rage, which means the more rounds of rage the better. Feats that extend rage or give extra rage rounds per day will be more useful. DD's have permanent bonuses instead of bonuses while they rage, and they get better endgame spells, if you don't count the free quickens.
Any suggestions about a paladin-sorcerer-dd tank build?
In the middle of doing the same thing.
Currently a Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 2roleplaying-wise I'm using the dd-prc to make my char a "half-dragon" (deep, emotional, roleplay, fluffy, cathartic drama-stuff)
-and from reading this guide I seem to have done everything wrong. ;)
the build: mithrill full plate, arcane armor, starting spells: shield and enlarge person. Eat those spell failures like a man (due to bad rolls I've "wasted" about one action per combat by this point, roughly)
Pros: natural armor boosts, strength boosts, self-buffing with spells, +1 feeling cool about being a "Dragon Knight".
Cons: arcane spell failure my old enemy -we meet again, ok I'm done buffing-what do you mean everybody is dead?!, my bab is equal (or lower?) than the rogues ...
Play style:
1. beat up things with a 2-hander (started as sword-and-board, stumbled across a large bastard sword, had the feat so why the heck not)
2. If the enemy looks togh or many: remember that I can cast spells; enlarge; shield. -go back to beating up things.
( 3. Grin and/or cackled in joy when bbeg turns out to ping my detect Evol -proceed to smite with childish abandon.
Notes: if you go 4lvls martial then 1lvl caster (sorcerer) into dd you will have very little spells: those two spells I have listed are the ONLY first lvl spells I have an will have untill I reach lvl 8or9. So regardless of how many spells your sorc can CAST, the options are limited.
Can't speak for later levels but the current trend of the build seems to be that you sacriice BAB for buffs - my case: trading to-hit for damage: when I connect with my Huge Frost Bastard Sword I do a godawful damage. (nicknamed; The Plank - as it's the only way I can envision somthing that absurdly big being swung around)
The flip side is that I'm lvl 7 and I still don't have my iterative attacks.
The funny thing us that my guy is not optimized fully; had CHA as highest score going into dd.
Base line: sorcadin dd is fun, but a bit stressing between lvl 4-6 as your spell choices are what you're stuck with for the next levels.
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I'm definitely a fan of replacing Sorcerer with Bard for the heavy armour/martial build. You may not get as good buff spells but you get a lot more synergy with Cha and some of the spells you do get (like Saving Finale) are amazing, flavour with Archaeologist archetype & Lingering Performance for taste (add Fates Favoured if you have room).
This has the added benefit of putting a lot of V only spells on your list, which aren't bothered by Arcane Spell Failure and thus make the heavy armour a lot more convenient. It also opens up a ton of skills as class skills, if you like that sort of thing. You still make the same BAB sacrifices but the Luck bonus helps offset that (and makes your already great saves even more ridiculous as well!)
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What really caught my eye from the ACG was the Eldritch Scion archetype for the magus. You get charisma-based spontaneous spellcasting and a bloodline. This is a no-brainer for the Beast Caster type DD. Magus 5/DD x looks really nice. Your bloodline starts from level 1, you get the +damage/die of the bloodline arcana without any cheese, and you get to skip that BAB-killing one level of sorcerer if you try to do a DD magus.
I'm not really sure what the text about using abilities "as if in a bloodrage" is about. Is that saying you only get the draconic bloodline features like bonus strength and natural armor boost when using the eldritch trance?
i totally missed the part about "only while bloodraging"
but this confuses me:
from abyssal bloodline: Claws (Su)
At 1st level, you grow claws while bloodraging. These claws are treated as...from Draconic bloodline: Claws (Su)
At 1st level, you grow claws. These claws are treated as....why did they write it differently? maybe for draconic the claws are always on
It's while raging for both. They just have the superfluously worded "while raging" on abyssal.
Ghorrin Redblade
No sweat, I've second-guessed myself into stuff plenty of times. :)
Oterisk, thank you so much for the guide. I've gotten a lot of use out of it over the years. But I think there are a couple of problems with your use of SLA's. Dragon Disciple requires that the character be able to cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation, and some of the SLA's that you mentioned don't satisfy that criteria.
Two examples:
1. Gnomes with the Pyromaniac racial trait get the following SLA's:
dancing lights: 0th level arcane
flare: 0th level arcane
prestidigitation: 0th level arcane
produce flame: 1st level divine
None of these qualify.
2. Half-elves with the Drow-blooded racial trait get the following SLA's:
dancing lights: 0th level arcane
darkness: 2nd level arcane
faerie fire: 1st level divine
None of these qualify.
For an excellent breakdown of both the rules and individual examples of SLA's, I would suggest Pupsocket's Guide to Early Entry with Spell-Like Abilities.
Also the debate over whether crossblooded and wildblooded are compatible has been resolved by this FAQ. They can't both be taken under the official rules.
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Ah, so it is. I'll have to make the proper corrections. Always there's a detail here and there that slips through.
On a brighter note, I'm starting an update to include ACG classes and all the current applicable archetypes. I don't know when I'm going to be done, but now is a good time to point out anything else amiss.
Happy Dragoning!
Okay, that was about 11 hours of non-consecutive work. Feel free to disagree below.
I'm not an expert on all the classes everywhere, so if someone has a pet class they love and hug and keep for their very own and know a few tips and tricks, those are welcome too.
I think you're being a little unfair to the Investigator for the Combat chassis.
Pros:
-Studied Combat is REAL good, even with only a 4 level dip. +2 to hit and damage all day long for a move action.
-You qualify for extra talent, which means you can turn your Studied Combat into a swift action, AND you can qualify for Domino Strike (it's in the ACG Supplement that came out recently). Domino Strike lets your pass the studied combat target around when you hit with Studied Strike
- LOTS of skills
- Inspiration is surprisingly useful, even with a small amount per day
- Standard action buffing, like Enlarge Person. Some extra resources per day, and Alchemical Allocation are all icing on top.
- Mutagen is great, even at only 40ish minutes per day
- Double as either a face or rogue (or both)
- Int instead of wisdom to a bunch of relevant skills via the Empiricist archetype.
Cons:
- One less BAB, lots less HP than typical martial chassis.
- More MAD since it requires at least a small Int
- Less weapon proficiency and armor proficiency
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I think you're being a little unfair to the Investigator for the Combat chassis.
Pros:
-Studied Combat is REAL good, even with only a 4 level dip. +2 to hit and damage all day long for a move action.
-You qualify for extra talent, which means you can turn your Studied Combat into a swift action, AND you can qualify for Domino Strike (it's in the ACG Supplement that came out recently). Domino Strike lets your pass the studied combat target around when you hit with Studied Strike
- LOTS of skills
- Inspiration is surprisingly useful, even with a small amount per day
- Standard action buffing, like Enlarge Person. Some extra resources per day, and Alchemical Allocation are all icing on top.
- Mutagen is great, even at only 40ish minutes per day
- Double as either a face or rogue (or both)
- Int instead of wisdom to a bunch of relevant skills via the Empiricist archetype.Cons:
- One less BAB, lots less HP than typical martial chassis.
- More MAD since it requires at least a small Int
- Less weapon proficiency and armor proficiency
That's a very large dip though, 4 levels is a lot of spellcasting or melee power to lose. Sure, the mutagen and infusions helps with that a bit but eats into your action economy to do so.
A much smaller investment which gives a lot of the same abilities would be 1 level of Archeologist Bard plus the Fates Favoured trait & Lingering Performance feat. That gives you +2 to basically everything for (Cha. bonus +4) x3 rounds per day which is probably as good as every fight plus more, you can roll every Knowledge skill if needed and you have a huge amount of others as class skills as well as a lot of skill points, you get some really useful spells (Saving Finale for example) and access to Cure Light plus a ton more as wands too.
Most importantly of all... it's just one level, leaving you able to happily focus on your main spell/melee side, hell it even doubles *as* the spellcasting dip if you want to go 1 caster/4 melee before entering the prestige class (and given that a lot of Bard spells are Verbal only it works really well if you want to wear a heavier set of armour since there is no Arcane Spell Failure %).
I think Investigator is a great class with some really fun, useful and often powerful mechanics, but I don't think it's a good fit for the Dragon Disciple, it requires too much of an investment to make it a good dip as that 'dip' becomes 80% of your levels before entering the prestige class.
Oterisk - Love the guide, have for quite a while, and I'm exceptionally happy that unlike many guides, you have kept up to date with new books as they come out. I know that's a lot of work, and it's very appreciated by many of us, for what it's worth.
I notice you point out one of the advantages of alchemist is it synergizes nicely with barbarian for some super strength; To me, now that the mutagen fighter is out, it's by far a superior dip to mix with barbarian.
You don't lose any BAB, you get full armor and tower shield proficiency (considering the crazy natural armor benefits of a DD, a tanky DD is totally do-able), and you get a bonus feat. For a beast DD, that totally outweighs a 1d6 bomb or sneak attack, a few skill points, and a couple infusions. In fact, considering you get mutagens at 1st level, and you don't lose anything until 3rd, there is no reason to NOT take that archetype EVERY TIME if you don't plan on taking more than two levels of fighter.
I could see a barbarian/mutagenwarrior/crossblooded-abyssal-or-orc-sorcerer being a source of phenomenal strength and defense through many levels, easily playable from low levels on.
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I really like this guide, and it was helpful. I am making a DD for iron gods, after my previous character died. The build so far ( only 3rd level)
Looks like this.
1. Human, urban barbarian1; Power Attack, technologist.
2. Vivisectionist 1;
3. Vivisectionist 2; combat reflexes, feral mutagen
4. Draconic (gold) sorcerer 1
5. Sorcerer 2; arcane strike
6. DD 1
7. DD 2. ?
At 7th level and beyond, I am open to suggestion on feats. I see the character as a melee type, and am open to loosing technologist and/or combat reflexes.
Thanks!
@thegreenteagamer- Thank you! It is a lot of work, but I'm as interested in the new options as most anyone else so it makes as much sense to me.
While I agree with you that the mutagen fighter is a fantastic archetype and should be on the top of anyone's list, there's a couple specific reasons why an Alchemist is a good idea.
1. Access to more spells per day: Whether it's Endure Elements in harsh terrain or Enlarge person (as a standard action instead of a 1 round action) or even an extra Cure Light Wounds, those extracts can be a real life saver.
2. Brew Potion: If you have Accelerated Drinker, you now can enlarge or any other potion buff as a move action. Is it worth 1 max HP and 1 BAB? It depends on the situation.
Your reasons for taking the Mutagen fighter are valid and if you are only dipping one level are compelling, but especially sometimes in the early game the versatility is worth the loss. Is it worth it in the long run? Probably not? That's why I did code the Mutagen Fighter Blue and the Alchemist Green.
Since there are only four colors, I don't think the switch is enough for me to downgrade alchemist to orange or even grange, it's still a solid option for those who want versatility and aren't making a beast build.
I might have to do as I did for the inevitables and rate each dip class into Beast and Caster separately... I'll think about it.
@Talos
If you are looking to crank your strength modifier as much as possible and you aren't interested in spells, this might be a good build. You might find that you'll run out of Rage rounds, and so an Extra Rage feat may be useful to you eventually. Your Mutagen will last about 20 minutes, which is enough for some rapid fights but you'll be in trouble if you get hit during the night with an encounter if you've used up all your resources during the day.
As far as feats go, it looks like you are going with a reach weapon, that's a good option. Getting extra attacks as they rush you is useful. That being said, picking up Cleave and Cleaving finish can get you even more attacks in groups and can save you Rage rounds and your party some resources during the day as well. Not a lot of people like Cleave, but it's pretty useful until you get iterative attacks, which for us DD's takes a while.
Remember at DD2 (character level 7) you'll get a bonus feat from the Draconic Bloodline feat section. Check out my recommendations for that. Otherwise, you might want to think about qualifying for Eldritch Heritage:Abyssal to get extra strength at level 11. AP's almost never get to end game stuff, so it's one of the only ways to get higher strength through the Inherent bonuses during a game that ends by 16-17th level.
I've never run or been in Iron Gods, so I can't tell you how good the Technologist feat really is. I do know it concerns skill checks, of which you should have very few opportunities to be good at. If you want to be a better skill monkey, I suggest you pick a race with a spell like ability and use Wizard as your casting class. Then you'll get at least a few more Skill points to use Technologist, otherwise it's a wasted feat for you.