If 5e is even just a little compatible with 3.5, will this threaten Pathfinder?


4th Edition


The title says it all.

Liberty's Edge

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No, PF has been around long enough that PF is PF and D&D is D&D.

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I would think it would help Pathfinder if anything. It would mean that D&D players would have reason to pick up Paizo products. Sure, if there's a lot of D&D products that do the same stuff Pathfinder does, it might be a problem, but it seems to me that WotC is focused more on rules while Paizo seems to put a lot more effort into flavor and adventures.


Stefan Hill wrote:
No, PF has been around long enough that PF is PF and D&D is D&D.

+1


If the game is good, it might certainly lure some players back.

I, however, like PF, and I haven't been this invested in a setting since Greyhawk (which Hasbro will not likely produce again).

The Exchange

I think sadly that their perceived betrayal of the 3x fanbase, and the leftover animosity from the ridiculous edition wars will make that unlikely.

IMO.

Liberty's Edge

I'll give 5e a fair shake like I did with 4e.

However, WotC would need to put out some pretty good adventure material to go along with 5e if they want me to invest into more than just the core set.


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I can't speak for anyone else, I'd be more likely to mine 5e for elements that I could port into Pathfinder than the other way around.

Plus, it's not like it's binary; I know plenty of people who are invested to some degree in both Pathfinder AND 4e, running multiple games or multiple groups.


Stefan Hill wrote:
No, PF has been around long enough that PF is PF and D&D is D&D.

Pathfinder is DnD. A new edition of DnD can be a potential threat, even if Pathfinder is superior.

WotC has a lot more means than Paizo has to develop, support and launch an edition.

4e was a commercial failure, but not PF. The logical thing to do would be to try to lure some of PF's customers back to DnD. As Ryan Dancey said on EnWorld, one gaming system is good for TRPGs.

Just that thyy aren't naming it 5e but "a new iteration of DnD" tells you they might be making it compatible with 3.5.


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If 5e is good enough to threaten Pathfinder, it's also good enough to draw new blood into the hobby, which helps Pathfinder. I really don't see this turning out poorly for Paizo. They're well-positioned to make any number of smart moves, or to stay the course they've chosen (which itself might be a smart move).

Liberty's Edge

Not to mention no matter what Paizo or Wotc does you will laways have players who stick with an edition they prefer. Do I like PF yes. I began hating it and was lured back to it. Then again at the same time if I still had all my 3.5 books I would have more than likely not switched to PF and stuck with 3.5.

As Scott has mentioned the hobby while far from dead is hurting. Anything thst can attract new blood is a bonus imo.


Dr Tom wrote:
Plus, it's not like it's binary; I know plenty of people who are invested to some degree in both Pathfinder AND 4e, running multiple games or multiple groups.

True, but there are a lot fo people who game casually and won't invest loads of cash in multiple systems. DnD is still the stronger brand, IMHO.


Yes. Will it put Pathfinder out of business? No, of course not, but it will impact it. Especially so if WotC resurrects Greyhawk and Planescape with 5E in some form. Those two settings are very popular with the Pathfinder crowd to be sure.

WoTC knows this. If Pathfinder did not exist there would not be a 5E under development right now (with Monte Cook leading the effort no less). Those WoTC laser scope dots are all over Paizo right now and 5E will have some compatibility with 3E for sure. Ignoring the 3E crowd would be a monumental mistake. I don't think they would make that mistake twice. Do I?

Liberty's Edge

I doubt Wotc has a black op team ready to wipe out the Paizo employees. I would assume they are taking PF and by extension Paizo into account. Yet if I was them focus in making a great verson of 5E then worry about the competion later. If any of the 3E or PF fanbase is interested in contributing they can. Let's keep the tin foil hat conspiracies out of the pciture shall we.


goldomark wrote:


4e was a commercial failure, but not PF.

The only major difference between the two is that Paizo is a tiny company with a tiny budget delighted with tiny profit margins, while M:TG is making Hasbro billions and D&D isn't. Pathfinder only *just* overtook 4E book sales this year after Wizards stopped caring about producing 4E books. While it's quite awesome for Paizo to be doing as well as they are, it's not like they have outsold 4E by the truckload and punched it back into Oblivion. Hasbro/WotC is just unhappy that so many "potential customers" are channeling money to a competitor that resold their own game from 5+ years ago. The real difference lies in the expectations of the corporations, not their popularity or sales.


I doubt seriously if 5e will threaten any of the editions out there. I own 4e (the basic three books), even though I don't run or play it, and I own at least PDfs of every one of the other editions, including Pathfinder and OSRIC. I doubt I'm particularly unusual among gamers.

Gamers like variety. BECMI chugged along merrily with AD&D for many years, and neither hurt the sales of either.


IT would never hurt Pathfinder, and I'll tell you why.

The OGL.

The OGL is the one thing that will keep Pathfinder going. Even after we live in a world where there is one law -- Love One Another. If 5e isn't as open, or if it is as open as Pathfinder, Pathfinder will still go in one form or another for a while.

in a thousand years, Pathfinder will be WAYYYYY out of vogue, but not in the foreseeable future.

Contributor

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If 5th ed is compatible with Pathfinder, I think this will be good for both. If all of Pathfinders bestiaries and adventures are suddenly usable with 5th ed? Huge extra content for people who start with that set, and thus extra sales. For D&D? Fans who might actually buy their books.

It all depends on various variables, the main one being whether the OGL is reintroduced, but I think it will be good for the industry and gaming as a whole.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

No.

As has been said on many of the other 5ed threads, the content matters not the rules.

Which may be why they are re-birthing forgotten realms with its entire history so people can choose the era to play in.
If they are smart they will set up some pre-history content as well.

This sort of reminds me of traveler's Imperium..
Look at all the rule sets for traveller, but the Imperium stands strong. (For traveler geeks anyways.)

Rules sets don't matter, content does.


Too much depends on the degree of compatibility and the type of license D&D 5 gets.

If, for example, D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and has a license more restrictive than the OGL, a possible result will be a general flowering of Pathfinder product, as people make material under the OGL based on the PRD, but with intent to sell it to D&D 5 players.

If D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and is actually released under the OGL, it might manage to fully displace Pathfinder the RPG, with Paizo moving its other lines to support it directly.

If D&D 5 isn't highly compatible with 3.x, things get murkier. Does the new D&D 5 go back to the classic background flavor of AD&D 1st/2nd, that was used to provide a sense of continuity in the 3rd edition core rulebooks despite the rules changes? Or does it keep up with the core-ifying of late D&D 3.5 add-on material (warlocks, warlords, dragonborn, etc.) that marked 4th? If the latter, it won't be a serious threat to Pathfinder, because it will be as alien in flavor (if not mechanics) as 4th was. If the former, possibilities get hard to calculate, but they risk alienating 4th edition fans in the process.


see wrote:


If D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and is actually released under the OGL, it might manage to fully displace Pathfinder the RPG, with Paizo moving its other lines to support it directly.

One interview called it "compatible with every D&D edition", while Mike Mearls made it clear he is explicitly in the OGL camp, although neither of these equal a confirmed commitment on Wizard's part. Still its looking like a strong possibility... really it's their only hope for "killing" Pathfinder, which is the entire point of 5E.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Goodness, no.

There are quite a lot of people who have moved on past WotC-related products and have no intention of ever going back. They couldn't care less what 5E looks like, and I am one of them. For this reason, 5E has absolutely no bearing on my interest in Pathfinder; what Paizo does will determine my continuing interest in Pathfinder.

I have a couple of players in my current PF group who are 4E players & friendly to the edition, enjoying it when they play it; they also enjoy Pathfinder. There are a good number of these people as well, and they tend to support every edition that they like, not play a "one or the other" game. These people will decide if they like 5E based on how it is, and if they do like it, they'll play it AND Pathfinder. What 5E looks like will have no bearing on their interest in Pathfinder, either; they either will play 5E along with every other edition they like ... or they won't play 5E, and still will play every other edition they like.


I currently DM a 4th ed game for some friends who like that version as they find it easy and accessible. Some of them are fairly new to RPG whilst others have been involved with the RPG journey as a fellow player and DM since 1st and 2nd ed decades ago. Whilst this allows me to keep the game alive at a time when gaming groups are not readily available, it is not my preferred version which has been a challenge and can make it a bit stale.

I came across pathfinder earlier this year and it has been invigorating for me. I have really enjoyed the fresh approach, quality and regularity of Paizo material. Whilst I appreciate that Paizo is a business and undoubtedly profits from their good works, I am nonetheless grateful for the chance to access and enjoy their products as they have returned me to where I want my gaming to be, even if it that has not translated me to converting my 4th ed friends yet.

I don't want to sound like a lame fanboy but I take my hat off to Paizo for stepping in and filling the void that emerged when 4th ed came out and I do not mean that as disrespect for either 4th ed or those who made the decision to move to a new version. As such I hope that whatever happens with 5th ed Paizo continue to get support in recognition of the gamble they took when they stepped in and helped keep 3/3.5 alive for so many players.

Shadow Lodge

FoxBat_ wrote:
One interview called it "compatible with every D&D edition"

Again, I don't really see how this would be possible, unless fifth edition was simply putting three full systems into place, and providing three sets of stats for everything. 4e, d20, and pre-d20 are just too wildly different from each other for anything to sucessfully be compatible with any two of them, much less all three.

Shadow Lodge

see wrote:
If D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and is actually released under the OGL, it might manage to fully displace Pathfinder the RPG, with Paizo moving its other lines to support it directly.

I HIGHLY doubt that will happen.

Shadow Lodge

Jerry Wright 307 wrote:
BECMI chugged along merrily with AD&D for many years, and neither hurt the sales of either.

Well, according to Lisa Stevens, who worked for TSR at the time, the splitting of the brand DID hurt sales.

Silver Crusade

Why purchase a new edition? Well, ok, it is new and could be damn good... However, Paizo are supporting the edition that I have paid out hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for in the past. I imagine most of us are in the same boat on this one. I would say the majority of people would be sticking with Paizo.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

At this point, it's hard to say. As see mentioned above, a lot will depend on how compatible the game is, how well it unifies 3e and older style players with 4e players, and how restrictive the licensing is. 5e could put up some serious competition... or not. It's way too soon to tell.

I would say that I think one thing is clear - WotC is hunting for PF customers. What else would be the point of a unifying edition? Paizo and WotC are clearly in competition for consumer dollars and this time it's WotC ramping up the competitiveness instead of Paizo. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out.


I think it would be positive in the terms of keeping everyone on their toes in terms of innovation.

I always felt that WoTC and Paizo have different goals when it came to supplemental materials.

For Example: If WoTC were to release a book about Elves 3.0/3.5 you would find a bunch of variant playable elves types and 15 PrCs full of Crunchy Mechanics and such and powers/feats and mechanics galore

A Pathfinder book on Elves is more focused on the flavour, such as ecology, music, art and culture, with a few character options (traits)

Paizo seems to be more interested in World building, and focused on creating a detailed environment to play in... and I think it works!

To me, the downfall of 3.5 WAS the billion character options, and ridiculous amount of new PrC's that started to break the game for me.

I felt the same way with ADnD with kits.

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No. Because....

I have read over and over on these boards the statement that Paizo's bread and butter are the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, and the various subscription models that fuel a lot of sales here.

One thing to remember is a lot of people purchase/subscribe to Pathfinder APs even if they do not play Pathfinder RPG. For example, I've spoken to a number of 4E GMs who convert the APs to 4E, no easy task, but they do it because the APs are so good. Other people have converted them to Castles and Crusades, GURPs, and backwards to 3.x amongst other systems. This is one of the reasons Paizo's business model is brilliant, because they have a large chunk of merchandise that is valuable to fans of multiple game systems.

If 5E is actually more compatible with Pathfinder, that means it will be easier for someone who likes the Adventure Paths but wants to run 5E will be able to run 5E converted Adventure Paths pretty easily.

And that means Adventure Path sales stay solid.

Likewise I am sure a lot of the setting material can be useful regardless of the system you use.

And a lot of the GameMastery Accessories, like flip mats and map packs and item cards, will also remain just as useful to D&D players (of any edition) as they are to, of course, Pathfinder players.

So the key thing is, I don't think 5E is a threat to Paizo and their business model.

And I would hope that means that as long as Paizo gets the revenue in, they can develop their own RPG ruleset as they damn well please.


Mostly echoing what has been said. If 5e is as compatible with 3.5 as implied, it will basically be Pathfinder compatible too. I don't know if you'll need some kind of conversion document, or if there will be a system in place to designate which flavor of D&D a game is running. It could well be the case that Paizo wouldn't need to change a thing other than maybe reference which modules are in use. If that's the case, Pathfinder could well already *be* 5e.

Imagine a world where you could pick and choose 5e material for your Pathfinder game, while the Pathfinder brand stays strong through increased sales of adventure modules AND supplemental rules to 5e players.

I may be an optimist but I think 5e could be very good for Paizo, with very little compromise.


Kthulhu wrote:


Again, I don't really see how this would be possible, unless fifth edition was simply putting three full systems into place, and providing three sets of stats for everything. 4e, d20, and pre-d20 are just too wildly different from each other for anything to sucessfully be compatible with any two of them, much less all three.

They can compromise on the 4E end really. With the lack of OGL and the end of DDI content, the edition will die much faster regardless of what the user base wants. There will need to be some bone tossed their direction though to keep enough of them from quitting DnD altogether. Still, many 4E types seem more on the ideas of precise, undisputable rules and standards, tight balance, and tactical grid battles than much of the not-so-memorable 4E flavor (particularly since flavor is presented as a mere "skin" on rules), so a totally new advanced ruleset that maintains those same principles could work well enough.

I'm also not sure how much the 2E base really matters to them either, Pathfinder is the elephant in the room to slay. Although the "simpler" base rules may pick up some BCEMI or 1e retro types. There's likely some current Pathfinder players who would be happy with simple base rules as long as certain "sacred cows" and flavor killed in 4E return.

And yeah, the rules are described as "modular" so, you can expect multiple layers of stats for official books. Or they will just "encourage" players to add/generate their own stat layers for advanced rules.


Kthulhu wrote:
see wrote:
If D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and is actually released under the OGL, it might manage to fully displace Pathfinder the RPG, with Paizo moving its other lines to support it directly.
I HIGHLY doubt that will happen.

Probably not. But, I'm spinning variant scenarios. If D&D 5 is as Pathfinder compatible as Pathfinder is 3.5 compatible, and under the OGL, it might very well make business sense for Paizo to stop reprinting the Core Rulebook, and sell its future setting and adventure path lines in D&D 5 versions (which would in this case still be reasonably compatible with people sticking with Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, and D&D 3).

Liberty's Edge

see wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
see wrote:
If D&D 5 is highly compatible with 3.x and is actually released under the OGL, it might manage to fully displace Pathfinder the RPG, with Paizo moving its other lines to support it directly.
I HIGHLY doubt that will happen.
Probably not. But, I'm spinning variant scenarios. If D&D 5 is as Pathfinder compatible as Pathfinder is 3.5 compatible, and under the OGL, it might very well make business sense for Paizo to stop reprinting the Core Rulebook, and sell its future setting and adventure path lines in D&D 5 versions (which would in this case still be reasonably compatible with people sticking with Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, and D&D 3).

That's not going to happen. Paizo made a call in 2008, they'd be foolish to switch now, especially considering that PFRPG now has outlived an entire edition of DND, it would seem far too unpredictable when Hasbro decides it's time for 6e.


thomrenault wrote:
That's not going to happen. Paizo made a call in 2008, they'd be foolish to switch now, especially considering that PFRPG now has outlived an entire edition of DND,

Sorry, what?

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was published in August 2009. 4e was published in June 2008. Assuming a GenCon 2013 release for 5e, that gives 4e a total edition lifespan of 62 months.

PFRPG won't have outlived an entire edition of D&D until the end of 2014.

Liberty's Edge

Scott Betts wrote:
thomrenault wrote:
That's not going to happen. Paizo made a call in 2008, they'd be foolish to switch now, especially considering that PFRPG now has outlived an entire edition of DND,

Sorry, what?

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was published in August 2009. 4e was published in June 2008. Assuming a GenCon 2013 release for 6e, that gives 4e a total edition lifespan of 62 months.

PFRPG won't have outlived an entire edition of D&D until the end of 2014.

I was counting the PFRPG Beta. Which a quick wiki check shows was released in August 2008. So I'm off by a few months. Also as of now, I'm pretty sure that 4e is dead in the water (i.e. WOTC isn't going to spend a bunch more time printing 4e books) I wasn't trying to be contentious, just pointing out that WoTC might not inspire a whole lot of confidence in a 3pp (including Paizo) about how long they're going to stick with this new set of rules.


thomrenault wrote:
I was counting the PFRPG Beta. Which a quick wiki check shows was released in August 2008. So I'm off by a few months. Also as of now, I'm pretty sure that 4e is dead in the water (i.e. WOTC isn't going to spend a bunch more time printing 4e books) I wasn't trying to be contentious, just pointing out that WoTC might not inspire a whole lot of confidence in a 3pp (including Paizo) about how long they're going to stick with this new set of rules.

The point stands. WotC is still publishing 4e material, and Pathfinder won't have lasted longer than a single D&D edition nearly until 2015.

Contributor

Scott Betts wrote:
thomrenault wrote:
That's not going to happen. Paizo made a call in 2008, they'd be foolish to switch now, especially considering that PFRPG now has outlived an entire edition of DND,

Sorry, what?

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was published in August 2009. 4e was published in June 2008. Assuming a GenCon 2013 release for 6e, that gives 4e a total edition lifespan of 62 months.

PFRPG won't have outlived an entire edition of D&D until the end of 2014.

6e? Are you counting D&D Essentials as 5e? And if so, shouldn't you count 3.0 and 3.5 as two different editions too?


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
thomrenault wrote:
That's not going to happen. Paizo made a call in 2008, they'd be foolish to switch now, especially considering that PFRPG now has outlived an entire edition of DND,

Sorry, what?

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was published in August 2009. 4e was published in June 2008. Assuming a GenCon 2013 release for 6e, that gives 4e a total edition lifespan of 62 months.

PFRPG won't have outlived an entire edition of D&D until the end of 2014.

6e? Are you counting D&D Essentials as 5e? And if so, shouldn't you count 3.0 and 3.5 as two different editions too?

Sorry, that was a slip. I meant 5e.

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