WotC's big announcement


4th Edition

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Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Steve Geddes wrote:
They see to be using the term "next iteration" rather than new edition. There's a brief comment on the wizards site which perhaps suggests they're hoping to transcend ones choice of edition. I can't even begin to think how one would do that. (though I may be misreading it).

Hmm. Both the New York Times and Forbes articles use the phrase "fifth edition"—but not as a capitalized title form—but the Wizards announcement avoids that exact phrase (but does refer to "previous editions").


I have no animosity towards WotC for trying to release an updated game after only 5 years or so. That's pretty much par for the course for a lot of the systems out there and they are a business after all. Ford doesn't go 15 years between redesigning Mustangs.

I think if they can produce a product that is a good product, whether or not it's good enough to convert a lot of fans of earlier editions or other games, and they really do a top notch job with the support for online content, tools, device support, etc. it'll be a success and bring in new blood. I don't feel it's too hard to convert a 4E monster to use in my Rules Cyclopedia game today. If 5E is easy to convert to PF or vice versa so I can use a PF module with 5E rules that's great and will encourage me to buy their stuff even if I choose an alternate edition to play. If 5E tools let me easily do the things that make DMing easy (maps, monsters, character visualizer, virtual table top, etc.) that will make the service valuable to subscribe to. They really do have the potential to make a good game and I wish them the best.

L


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Anyone wanting to throw out their 4E books can sell them to me. I'd love to complete my collection on the cheap. ;)


golem101 wrote:


Do something dramatic, spectacular, and bold.
Be brave and say "we don't want to appease everyone or that other game crowd, we want to have our game working properly".
Anything less, and it will be just another rulebook, without any strong, long-lasting grip on the "fractured base" so much referred to.

This is it. This my feeling for right now about the new edition. "We want to have our game working properly."


Vic Wertz wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
They see to be using the term "next iteration" rather than new edition. There's a brief comment on the wizards site which perhaps suggests they're hoping to transcend ones choice of edition. I can't even begin to think how one would do that. (though I may be misreading it).
Hmm. Both the New York Times and Forbes articles use the phrase "fifth edition"—but not as a capitalized title form—but the Wizards announcement avoids that exact phrase (but does refer to "previous editions").

They say they are still thinking on how they name it, but I think the descision was taken from then within an hour after the news was out. Everyone calls it 5th Edition and will continue to do so until DDXP in three weeks. I guess by that point they'll just run with it.

Legendarius wrote:
I have no animosity towards WotC for trying to release an updated game after only 5 years or so. That's pretty much par for the course for a lot of the systems out there and they are a business after all. Ford doesn't go 15 years between redesigning Mustangs.

I never had any intention to play 4th Edition but have been waiting for a new version of D&D for a long time.

For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks. For people like me, it appears like a great descisions to no longer cling to that game and try it again with the experience of the mistakes they made.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well I seem to recall a desire to stay away from the dreaded.5, so maybe the TPTB are deciding that 'edition' leaves a bad taste?


Yora wrote:
For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks.

As an enthusiastic 4e player, which part of this sucks?


Scott Betts wrote:
Yora wrote:
For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks.
As an enthusiastic 4e player, which part of this sucks?

The part of "no new releases for you" and "if you want to play with the new stuff, all your old stuff you have is now mostly meaningless".


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Legendarius wrote:

I have no animosity towards WotC for trying to release an updated game after only 5 years or so. That's pretty much par for the course for a lot of the systems out there and they are a business after all. Ford doesn't go 15 years between redesigning Mustangs.

Books can last a long time. There is no need for me or anyone I play Pathfinder with to ever overhaul our rules or get a new core rulebook. I can play this game as it is, forever. Just because businesses make these decisions every 5 years doesn't mean that customers need to buy anything new. The old ones still work just fine. I would rather have a complete set of one system, then a few books from every system that comes out. I pick one, and I stick with it. For every new player that starts gaming with us, we will break them in using the PF rules only. We are going to live happily ever after, while others will forever wish for a new version.

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if 5E somehow managed to be backward-compatible (to varying degrees) with multiple editions?

It would be fairly simple for a game to be backward-compatible with all the pre-d20 editions. Likewise, it would be simple for a game to be backward-compatible with 3.0 and 3.5 (and by extension, Pathfinder). The problem is that combining backwards compatibility for pre-d20, d20, and 4E is pretty much an insurmountable task. Even trying to make something compatible with two of the three would be impossible, in my opinion...adding in the third makes it beyond the impossible. So unless such a 5th edition is basically publishing books with three sets of stats included in every release...not gonna work.


Scott Betts wrote:
Yora wrote:
For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks.
As an enthusiastic 4e player, which part of this sucks?

Not sure, I think 4E is the current best edition, and can only look forward to 5E being better. If it isn't, I still have all my 4E material. Just in case they come and confiscate those, I have all my 3E stuff. On back to 2E, as sadly I don't have much of my older stuff anymore. No matter what they do, I will always have D&D to play in some edition or another.


Yora wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Yora wrote:
For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks.
As an enthusiastic 4e player, which part of this sucks?
The part of "no new releases for you" and "if you want to play with the new stuff, all your old stuff you have is now mostly meaningless".

But we get new stuff. Stuff that we'll probably think is cooler than the old stuff. And we'll still have all our old books. And (purportedly) access to DDI.

I think maybe it would suck if you only like 4e, hate Pathfinder, hate 5e, and refuse to play a system that isn't currently supported. Then, okay, that would suck. But I don't think there are many of those out there.


Brian James wrote:
Legendarius wrote:

I have no animosity towards WotC for trying to release an updated game after only 5 years or so. That's pretty much par for the course for a lot of the systems out there and they are a business after all. Ford doesn't go 15 years between redesigning Mustangs.

Books can last a long time. There is no need for me or anyone I play Pathfinder with to ever overhaul our rules or get a new core rulebook. I can play this game as it is, forever. Just because businesses make these decisions every 5 years doesn't mean that customers need to buy anything new. The old ones still work just fine. I would rather have a complete set of one system, then a few books from every system that comes out. I pick one, and I stick with it. For every new player that starts gaming with us, we will break them in using the PF rules only. We are going to live happily ever after, while others will forever wish for a new version.

That's cool for you.

I give a damn about the strength of the hobby as a whole.

Shadow Lodge

I'll take a look at 5E. If I like it, cool. Who knows, it might appeal to me more than Pathfinder. If I don't like it, that's also fine, as I have dozens of other RPG systems that I DO like.

Assuming that I do have some sort of interest in it, one thing I do hope is that 5E goes back to the OGL, or something that is similarly open. That and they they begin to release PDFs again.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
They see to be using the term "next iteration" rather than new edition. There's a brief comment on the wizards site which perhaps suggests they're hoping to transcend ones choice of edition. I can't even begin to think how one would do that. (though I may be misreading it).
Hmm. Both the New York Times and Forbes articles use the phrase "fifth edition"—but not as a capitalized title form—but the Wizards announcement avoids that exact phrase (but does refer to "previous editions").

Russell over at ENWorld noted that the NY Times article does everything WotC asked their press visitors not to do. Perhaps referring to the remake as a "fifth edition" was one of those things?


Can't say I care much about the actual system, no matter how they make it - what I hope a new edition will bring is some kind of shaking of some old campaign settings. Dark Sun seemed to do well enough, so some Birthright and/or Planescape stuff sure would make me interested. But I guess setting stuff won't be a part of the feedback thingie.

Whatever happens, it will be fun to see what the eventual product ends up as though.

Shadow Lodge

Actually, regardless of what sort of system they use, I think the key to having success will be to actually support the system with published adventures. In my opinion, this was one of the things that contributed to 4e's downfall. Maybe they were pumping out a ton of stuff through DDI, but they can't assume that everyone who plays the game subscribes to DDI. They didn't publish much print adventure support at all under 4e, and I don't see 5e having much more success unless they change that policy.

It also wasn't helpful that the overly-restrictive GSL made 3PP reluctant to do 4e material.


Was there much of adventures in 3rd Edition? There was Red Hand of Doom, which is the only one which I remember being talked about a lot.
There was also the Cormyr trilogy and City of the Spiderqueen very early on, but everything else never seemed like a major thing.

And 3rd Edition did really well. When they stopped it it felt a lot to me like there just wasn't much left to make a book of. A 6th monster manual and yet another Complete book? Maybe a Tome of Giants, but really, what else could you have made for that game that pretty much had everything covered?


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I'd think the smartest thing they could call a unified edition would be "dungeons and dragons."

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Vic Wertz wrote:
Terquem wrote:
I ashamed to admit this, but I will buy the new edition, iteration, or whatever it is called.
There's no shame in that. (And assuming it's available through standard hobby distribution channels, we'll be happy to sell it to you!)

And, assuming it's not available through standard hobby distribution channels, I'll be happy to sell* you a copy** that fell off a truck***.

*Cash is grudgingly accepted, but payment in hookers and blow provides a 10% discount off the cover price.

**Copy may or may not be authentic, but is available today.

***They didn't so much fall off the truck as much as they were stolen by mobsters who thought they were hi-jacking cigarettes and needed a way to pay their legal fees.

Scarab Sages

houstonderek wrote:
We have different definitions of "bizarre" then. It doesn't mean "how the very first role playing game was" to me at all.

Can we settle for 'unintuitive', then?

Dark Archive

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Rules aside, I am more interested in OGL. There are a lot of campaign settings out there, such as Midnight or Scarred Lands, that died when OGL died. I would love to see them resurrected.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:


***They didn't so much fall off the truck as much as they were stolen by mobsters who thought they were hi-jacking cigarettes and needed a way to pay their legal fees.

And I thought my clients were interesting....


OGL didn't die, that's the great thing about it. It also is the reason why Pathfinder came around in the first place.

Liberty's Edge

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Yora wrote:

Was there much of adventures in 3rd Edition? There was Red Hand of Doom, which is the only one which I remember being talked about a lot.

There was also the Cormyr trilogy and City of the Spiderqueen very early on, but everything else never seemed like a major thing.

And 3rd Edition did really well. When they stopped it it felt a lot to me like there just wasn't much left to make a book of. A 6th monster manual and yet another Complete book? Maybe a Tome of Giants, but really, what else could you have made for that game that pretty much had everything covered?

*ahem* With respect to adventures in 3rd edition? You left out Monte Cook's take on The Temple of Elemental Evil as the most obvious omission from WotC's stable. (Sunless Citadel and Forge of Fury as well)

But there were TONS of classic adventures for 3rd ed because of the OGL -- but mostly because of Paizo and its official licensed status -- and later -- its FORMERLY Licensed status!

Paizo was the officially licensed publisher of adventures and they carried the ball with Dungeon Magazine. It was published by Paizo. They ultimately created this neat publishing concept of releasing one linked adventure every issue for 12 issues straight which Paizo called an Adventure Path within the page of Dungeon. This gave us Shackled City AP, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide. The adventures in Dungeon were accompanied by companion articles in Dragon Magazine covering the same AP by providing more background, player resources and prestige classes.

They were a big hit and The Whispering Cairn, the first adventure 1 in Age of Worms, became the closest thing to a shared experience in 3.5 ed.

The other Paizo APs published for 3.5 are also noteworthy. Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness (okay, maybe not Second Darkness!) and Legacy of Fire. And 23 other stand alone modules, too.

There was also Ptolus, World's Largest Dungeon, World's Largest City, Rappan Athuk (and RA Reloaded), the release of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy, the Slave Lords of Cydonia and Freeport - to name some of the other highlights. There were dozens more worthy entries in the annals of 3rd ed adventures.

WotC didn't do many adventures for 3E, because third party publishers were supposed to do that. As a result of the d20 License and the OGL, the 3PP actually did so.

When it came to 4th Ed, the 3PP were supposed to do that again -- except they didn't, as the GSL persuaded almost every company not to bother. Moreover, most of the best adventure designers were no longer working for WotC as they were busy beavering away on Paizo's Adventure Paths and module lines.

Adventures matter; they matter a lot.


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Steel_Wind wrote:
Adventures matter; they matter a lot.

I cannot agree with this enough. Adventure support is huge. Huge huge huge. I hope they have a strong plan for how they'll muster up sufficient adventure content in 5e.


Maybe it's just me who only ran one published adventure ever and that one was City of the Spiderqueen because I was young and drow are cool. ^^
I also never played a published adventure in the two games I was a player.

Though I admit a Savage Tide that spans only 4 or 5 levels instead of 20 seems quite tempting. And I liked reading that one with the Tharizdun squid in the slums.

Dark Archive

While I will miss things like Mind Flayers, Eberron, and Lolth, all I want from 5ed is to be Pathfinder...because I love Pathfinder. I found my game, I love it, and there is nothing 5ed could do that would lure my dollars to them, unless they made the game using the Pathfinder system. Since I know this won't happen...

Liberty's Edge

nightflier wrote:
Rules aside, I am more interested in OGL. There are a lot of campaign settings out there, such as Midnight or Scarred Lands, that died when OGL died. I would love to see them resurrected.

Midnight didn't die because of the OGL. Midnight "died" because FFG was losing money on it. They stopped creating new material for Midnight well before the end of the 3.xx era.

They re-calibrated the company and made a crap-load of money making board games instead. Now they are back in the business making Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy/Warhammer rpg products. And we should expect to see a Star Wars RPG from FFG later this year -- probably leveraging the Star Wars: The Old Republic setting. But a return to Midnight at FFG? Unlikely.

Scarred Lands? Substitute WW for FFG -- same reason. Unhappily for WW, they didn't make a crap load of money making board games though. Instead, they were bought up by a MMO developer that dropped the ball on the long-promised WoD MMO.


Yora wrote:

Maybe it's just me who only ran one published adventure ever and that one was City of the Spiderqueen because I was young and drow are cool. ^^

I also never played a published adventure in the two games I was a player.

I'd say that's probably true about as often as it's not. Some DMs love published adventures, some can't stand them. I've had more pleasant experiences with the former, frankly, but that doesn't really mean anything.


Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
While I will miss things like Mind Flayers, Eberron, and Lolth, all I want from 5ed is to be Pathfinder...because I love Pathfinder. I found my game, I love it, and there is nothing 5ed could do that would lure my dollars to them, unless they made the game using the Pathfinder system. Since I know this won't happen...

Ouch. I hope Paizo's not planning on switching to Pathfinder 2nd Edition at some point.

Dark Archive

Steel_Wind wrote:
nightflier wrote:
Rules aside, I am more interested in OGL. There are a lot of campaign settings out there, such as Midnight or Scarred Lands, that died when OGL died. I would love to see them resurrected.

Midnight didn't die because of the OGL. Midnight "died" because FFG was losing money on it. They stopped creating new material for Midnight well before the end of the 3.xx era.

They re-calibrated the company and made a crap-load of money making board games instead.

Scarred Lands? Substitute WW for FFG -- same reason. Unhappily for WW, they didn't make a crap load of money making board game though. Instead, they were bought up by a MMO developer that dropped the ball on the WoD MMO.

When 4th Ed. was announced, FFG published a short adventure set in Midnight and that raised my hopes. I am running a long pbp campaign on these boards (and I am always looking for new players) and I ran two RL campaigns, but I hoped to see Midnight resurrected. To be honest, I really don't need new rules for the game, but I want more fluff.

Same goes for Scarred Lands.


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Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
While I will miss things like Mind Flayers, Eberron, and Lolth, all I want from 5ed is to be Pathfinder...because I love Pathfinder. I found my game, I love it, and there is nothing 5ed could do that would lure my dollars to them, unless they made the game using the Pathfinder system. Since I know this won't happen...

I hope that doesn't happen, my GM doesn't allow 3PP content in our PF game :p

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
Steel_Wind wrote:
Adventures matter; they matter a lot.
I cannot agree with this enough. Adventure support is huge. Huge huge huge. I hope they have a strong plan for how they'll muster up sufficient adventure content in 5e.

I'll +1 these points.

Two things got me started on playing D&D 3rd Edition:

1) Baldur's Gate 2. An awesome game which blew my mind as far as RPGs are concerned (I was 16, and Final Fantasy games were the only other RPGs I'd played).

2) Dungeon Magazine, I saw it on a magazine rack at my local newsagency and I picked it up. Within was an awesome horror adventure featuring an Asylum at the edge of a frozen mountain, and horrible octopus headed aliens enslaving the patients to dig out their ancient space ship from the ice. The combination of horror and fantasy gripped my imagination and I bought D&D 3rd Edition specifically to run that adventure.

I love writing my own content, but in order to get my gaming fix every week requires having time aside to write. Stats are relatively easy (especially if you're willing to reskin), but a new plot every week designed to entertain people for 4-6 hours featuring an ever expanding cast of interesting NPCs? They pay entire WRITERS ROOMS to accomplish this task for 30 minutes a week on television. So I use pre-fabricated adventures (I bought Dungeon every month and loved it).

The point is, not a lot of people buy an X-Box 360 to be a fancy DVD player. They buy it for the games. Paizo have made the X-Box free, and are providing the best games in town.

No matter what Wizards does with 5th Edition, even if it is the most elegantly designed game of beauty, if they continue to hide their rules system behind a $150 paywall (PHB, DMG & MM $50 each), they aren't going to be able to compete even with their very own FREE TO PLAY MMO.

So I guess if they make a 5th Edition that has rules that are compatible with Pathfinder, I might incorporate some of their stuff into my primarily Pathfinder game, because I plan to run Adventure Paths until the end of my gaming career (read: Death).


Yora wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Yora wrote:
For enthusiastic 4th Ed players, this sucks.
As an enthusiastic 4e player, which part of this sucks?
The part of "no new releases for you" and "if you want to play with the new stuff, all your old stuff you have is now mostly meaningless".

Mike Mearls stated there will be 4E conversion tool to convert 4E material to the new iteration. I think they are conscious of people that have invested in 4E, and do not want to make the same mistakes they made with the release of 4E.

I for one have spent the past year building my 4E collection and am not disheartened by this news! I liek the books as well as teh game, so will continue to buy.

And as for no new content, there was very little last year.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

1) Baldur's Gate 2. An awesome game which blew my mind as far as RPGs are concerned (I was 16, and Final Fantasy games were the only other RPGs I'd played).

No matter what Wizards does with 5th Edition, even if it is the most elegantly designed game of beauty, if they continue to hide their rules system behind a $150 paywall (PHB, DMG & MM $50 each), they aren't going to be able to compete even with their very own FREE TO PLAY MMO.

Speaking of which: Were there ever any 4th Edition video games? I loved the 2nd and 3rd Ed. ones.


Yora wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

1) Baldur's Gate 2. An awesome game which blew my mind as far as RPGs are concerned (I was 16, and Final Fantasy games were the only other RPGs I'd played).

No matter what Wizards does with 5th Edition, even if it is the most elegantly designed game of beauty, if they continue to hide their rules system behind a $150 paywall (PHB, DMG & MM $50 each), they aren't going to be able to compete even with their very own FREE TO PLAY MMO.

Speaking of which: Were there ever any 4th Edition video games? I loved the 2nd and 3rd Ed. ones.

Not really. For pretty much the entirety of 4e's lifespan, the license to produce video games under the D&D mark was tied up in legal disputes with Atari. It's only recently been resolved (I hope), and there's now a Neverwinter RPG in development. Who knows how it will turn out, though.

Frog God Games

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nightflier wrote:
Same goes for Scarred Lands.

With what happened to White Wolf, I doubt that we'll see any more of that IP

Dark Archive

Yora wrote:
Speaking of which: Were there ever any 4th Edition video games? I loved the 2nd and 3rd Ed. ones.

The only one I know of is the Neverwinter Nights Facebook game.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, there's that Daggerdale thing too, best left forgotten.

Shadow Lodge

Steel_Wind wrote:
WotC didn't do many adventures for 3E...

Perhaps not compared to 2e. But 4e took a dry spell and turned it into the Sahara. I'm not necessarily talking just about big major things like Red Hand of Doom. I mean any adventure support, from short one-shot modules to full-length campaigns.

Dark Archive

4ed needed Pathfinder's AP, and I think it would have done much better.

Dark Archive

Yora wrote:
There is at least one guy who looks at the 5 books on his bookshelf and thinks that three or four new ones would be a nice addition.

There's a guy with less than 30 books on the shelf? Is he new?

Personally, as of getting my bestiary 3, I've got a whole new set of problems...

I need another bookcase.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

DΗ wrote:
Yora wrote:
There is at least one guy who looks at the 5 books on his bookshelf and thinks that three or four new ones would be a nice addition.

There's a guy with less than 30 books on the shelf? Is he new?

Personally, as of getting my bestiary 3, I've got a whole new set of problems...

I need another bookcase.

I need to get my first bookcase - I just watched a brown recluse crawl out of the pile. :/

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
I need to get my first bookcase - I just watched a brown recluse crawl out of the pile. :/

O_O

Get a bookcase. lol

I have 4 Shelves, 2 feet wide. And no more room for books. Its mostly 3.x and Pathfinder, with some 2e (particularly campaign settings) and a shelf full of WoD books.

There a couple odd one-off books on there as well, like Conan 2e d20, Angel: the RPG (Unisystem), and some more unusual d20 books, like d20 stargate, and d20 WoW, and Everstone: Blood Legacy,

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