How exactly is there 'a very good chance' 5e will be better for you than 4e?
I'm not Steve, but I'll explain my take on things.
Because I liked 3e better than 2e, 3.5 better than 3e, 4e better than 3.5, and I expect that the trend will continue. I have a lot more evidence that points to my liking the next edition than my not liking it.
The previous edition (4e) has apparently come to be regarded as worse than it's predecessor by something like 50% of it's previous audience/customer base.
See, you think that this is true, and you think that you have evidence that it's true, but you don't.
Those seem like pretty poor and shakey odds based on past history to me.
The past history of the market's reactions to D&D has no bearing whatsoever on my own reactions. It's a little weird that you think it would.
The past history of the market's reactions to D&D has no bearing whatsoever on my own reactions. It's a little weird that you think it would.
Never write "past history" again. It's like writing "free gift." History is by definition in the past. FOR LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE UNIVERSE, STOP THE MADNESS!
Now back to your regularly-scheduled edition war.
The past history of the market's reactions to D&D has no bearing whatsoever on my own reactions. It's a little weird that you think it would.
Never write "past history" again. It's like writing "free gift." History is by definition in the past. FOR LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE UNIVERSE, STOP THE MADNESS!
Now back to your regularly-scheduled edition war.
Yeah, that was a bit of a brain fart on my part.
Didn't like 4E, but see no reason to be a hater. If it wasn't for the, IMHO, fall from grace that I found 4E to be, I would not have found Pathfinder, which I love.
I've played all the eds (yes, I'm old) and have found 3.5 and Path to be my favorites, but why wish 5E to crash and burn even before we've seen it?
Will I play-test "Next"? Sure because I like to game and I'm curious. Do I think Hasbro is mis-guided? Yes. Do I have choice words for them? Yes. Is Wizards attempting something difficult? H*ll ya. Will I leave Pathfinder for this new "iteration"? Nope.
I know we have our favs, but no need to hope for one to crash and burn. The "competion" makes everyone work harder to make a better game. What's the harm in that? 4E players, this works for you as well. The material out of Paizo is yours to play around with just as much as Pathfinder groups looking back to the 3E material. And that's not even looking at 3rd party contributions! Old mods inspire as well as new.
So pre-4E and Pathfinder players, we seen this before so let's not have a freakin heart attack. 4E/Esentials players, breathe, no one can take your books away (just ask us old guys/gals).
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Interesting Betts. You're already dropping the system you've praised litteraly daily on these boards every since it arrived, for 5ED. If 4Ed was that great of a system, as you've suggested so often, why not stick with it? Then you wouldn't have to re-buy all those books you've already shelled out your hard earned dollars for in the 4Ed system?Does anyone have an opinion on what the "ideal" lifespan of a system is?I care less about the amount of time that a system was supported for, and more about the depth of material we receive over the course of its lifespan. Even though 4e has only been out for less than four years, it already has a tremendous amount of material. If I planned on sticking with 4e (I'm planning on switching to 5e, but if), I would have everything I ever need to run 4e games with a fantastic amount of variety for the rest of my life.
The only other consideration would be continued access to the digital tools, which we've heard (preliminarily) will still be available.
Dear KillerGM,
from one Pathfinder player to another:Scott Betts has played and enjoyed a game that we might not like to play ourselves and now he is willing to try another...
what's wrong with that?
leave it alone, please...
Good gaming to you all,
GRU
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Honestly, these same few people (who I won't actually call friends due to troubles in the past) would never want to try 5e or D&D next or whatever they're calling it right now. You know why? Simply put: fear......is the sales-killer. Fear is the little-death that causes total bankruptcy. *ahem* Sorry, been reading Dune.
Anyway, I neatly killed another 5e thread by saying this so I'll say it again. I love 4e, and I hope I hate 5e. Not because I have some kind of grudge, but because I'm ready to step off the treadmill. So I hope 5e has all the little things that irritate me about previous editions, because that'd make my choice all the easier. :)
Funny, I felt that way about 4.x, and if Paizo hadn't put out Pathfinder I'd never have moved to 'another edition' The input on Pathfinder and the finished product* kept me going.
Well that and it was easy to turn my subscriptions into AP credits.
Aside: Remember when people were upset there was no clear warning about 4x being ready? Now we have an announcement that 5x is coming, and people are still complaining. :-)
*
It's the internet, people are always complaining.
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Aside: Remember when people were upset there was no clear warning about 4x being ready? Now we have an announcement that 5x is coming, and people are still complaining. :-)
Another Aside: Actually, it wasn't even the 4x announcement that earned my complaints.
It was being told by a WotC Rep (who shall remain nameless) to my face: "No, no! There's no 4th edition coming! You'll be perfectly fine starting those 2 year storylines you're working on for Living Greyhawk!"
And then 3 months later: "Those 2 year storylines? Yeah... wrap 'em up in the next 6 months."
NOTE: the above is not an actual transcription. Just my own bitter recollection. :)
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Actually, I think a fair number of 4Ed players ARE asking themselves the question 'why did I just shell out hundreds of dollars for an edition that lasted less time then the two editions that it succeeded, and claimed to improve upon. You seem to think that you speak for all 4ed players.
I am not exactly a 4e fan, but I can enjoy the game and have probably bought over a hundred dollars of 4e stuff. And I personally am not asking that question at all. I am eagerly awaiting 5e personally.
If anything I may think "why did I waste all that money on 3.5 books now that loadsof people have moved onto Pathfinder?" - though I didn't really because I am trying to play 3.5 when I can find the players.
I'm indifferent to what WoTc does now
I don't think you are personally, if you were indifferent to what WotC are doing I doubt you would even be posting here, much less with as much emotion as you seem to be doing.
[...]because Paizo already has a superior product. And I'm above all, Objective
Do you not see the irony here? :) Many people feel 4e is superior to Pathfinder, others think they are difficult to compare, but I think we can all agree that there is no definitive measure of overall superiority of an RPG, because different RPGs appeal to different people's tastes. So no, I don't think that above all you're objective, but that isn't a bad thing, I know I'm not either.
Paizo [...]now has the BEST fantasy RPG available
Another example of how subjective you can be, especially as now you seem to have broadened the spectrum to all fantasy RPGs, including RuneQuest, Legends of Anglerre, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay etc.
If you had said Paizo now has the most popular fantasy RPG available I would probably agree based on my own experience, but "best"? No.
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Actually, I think a fair number of 4Ed players ARE asking themselves the question 'why did I just shell out hundreds of dollars for an edition that lasted less time then the two editions that it succeeded, and claimed to improve upon. You seem to think that you speak for all 4ed players.
While I enjoy 4E I'm not exactly the biggest fan of the system either at the moment yet I'm not asking myself that question. It does bother me a little yet one thing posters on this forum and others forget it's not something that only Wotc does with their rpgs. Spycraft is in it's what 3rd edition and the second was out for barely 3 years. Chaosium is releasing Call of Cthulhu 7E. Exilge Game studios is eventually going to work on a second edition of their system. Your in the wrong hobby if you don't like spending money on new edtions. The same thing could have been said about Patfinder. Why buy PF if I spent all the money on 3.5 books. Espcially when for some it feels like a rehash of 3.5. Not to mention unless you have the figures to back up your claim who knows what the avergae gamer is really thinking about.
I'm indifferent to what WoTc does now
I don't think your are. Being indifferent imo means not responding or caring what Wotc and from what Iread of your posts it's the opposite.
[...]because Paizo already has a superior product. And I'm above all, Objective
As others have said very ironic. Being objective imo means seeing both the good and bad elements of both 4E and Pathfinder. Not fsvoring one over the other. If anything you saying "PF is the greatest" is showing your bias against 4E.
Paizo [...]now has the BEST fantasy RPG available.
In your opinion and not at all fact. I like PF it's pretty good fantasy rpg. The best hardly. While someone else might say I'm worng. It's all a matter of taste. Your being very subjective. Now your not only including 4E but also all other fantasy rpgs. I wish posters would stop acting like they speak for the entire community.
How exactly is there 'a very good chance' 5e will be better for you than 4e?I'm not Steve, but I'll explain my take on things.
Because I liked 3e better than 2e, 3.5 better than 3e, 4e better than 3.5, and I expect that the trend will continue. I have a lot more evidence that points to my liking the next edition than my not liking it.
The previous edition (4e) has apparently come to be regarded as worse than it's predecessor by something like 50% of it's previous audience/customer base.See, you think that this is true, and you think that you have evidence that it's true, but you don't.
Those seem like pretty poor and shakey odds based on past history to me.The past history of the market's reactions to D&D has no bearing whatsoever on my own reactions. It's a little weird that you think it would.
I didn't say it would - to you Scott.
As to your personal reasons ... well, for you I'd agree. You will like 5e, of that I am as certain as I can be about anything.
How exactly is there 'a very good chance' 5e will be better for you than 4e?
The previous edition (4e) has apparently come to be regarded as worse than it's predecessor by something like 50% of it's previous audience/customer base. Those seem like pretty poor and shakey odds based on past history to me. You liked 4e ... you may not like 5e. Unless you're saying 'I'll like it whatever' ... which is madness if you ask me.
Perhaps Scott doesn't really care what "50%" of the audience thinks. Maybe, just maybe, some of us don't seek validation in the opinions of others.
Let's look at what Scott said:
1. Scott liked the changes from 3.5E->4E.
2. Scott expects to like the changes from 4E->5E, too.Yeah, that sounds like madness to me...
Also, the word "past" in the phrase "past history" is redundant. Normally I wouldn't mention it, but messing up ninth-grade grammar undermines your aura of smugness.
I always think that correcting someone's grammar on an internet board is kinda like admitting defeat in the discussion at hand. I post fast and quick, forgive me if my posts are rarely edited old fella.
My post you responded to wasn't in fact aimed at Scott, I don't know where that's coming from - though kidding aside even Scott I'd venture to guess has views and opinions, to simply assume 'I will like this edition' is not a good way to go imo. Open minded is fine, essentially declaring you will like a new edition sight unseen, which is the gist I'm getting from Scott's posts - I'd call that risky ... if not madness.
Especially as we may well see some dialling back from the bits of 4e's system so many of us hated, but Scott apparently liked.
But hey, I'm sure you're right, as I just posted, Scott will like 5e.
Honestly, these same few people (who I won't actually call friends due to troubles in the past) would never want to try 5e or D&D next or whatever they're calling it right now. You know why? Simply put: fear......is the sales-killer. Fear is the little-death that causes total bankruptcy. *ahem* Sorry, been reading Dune.
Anyway, I neatly killed another 5e thread by saying this so I'll say it again. I love 4e, and I hope I hate 5e. Not because I have some kind of grudge, but because I'm ready to step off the treadmill. So I hope 5e has all the little things that irritate me about previous editions, because that'd make my choice all the easier. :)
Funny, I felt that way about 4.x, and if Paizo hadn't put out Pathfinder I'd never have moved to 'another edition' The input on Pathfinder and the finished product* kept me going.
Well that and it was easy to turn my subscriptions into AP credits.
Aside: Remember when people were upset there was no clear warning about 4x being ready? Now we have an announcement that 5x is coming, and people are still complaining. :-)
*** spoiler omitted **
The gods of irony strike again, eh?
And yeah, I remember. WotC just can't win!
though kidding aside even Scott I'd venture to guess has views and opinions, to simply assume 'I will like this edition' is not a good way to go imo. Open minded is fine, essentially declaring you will like a new edition sight unseen, which is the gist I'm getting from Scott's posts - I'd call that risky ... if not madness.
Especially as we may well see some dialling back from the bits of 4e's system so many of us hated, but Scott apparently liked.
But hey, I'm sure you're right, as I just posted, Scott will like 5e.
I'm not telling you that I like 5e. I'm telling you that, given what I've experienced to be the case in the past, I find it very likely that I will like 5e. I would be very surprised if I did not like it.
How is that weird? I realize that expecting to be pleased by anything WotC does isn't really the norm 'round these parts, but madness?
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Betts, I'm trying to understand why you're doing what you're doing. You mentioned posts on Paizo & EN World. Given that you're clearly, a WoTC guy, I think I can safely conjecture that you frequent their message boards also. I've noticed the different times of the day and night that you post. In short, do you have a life outside of trolling these message boards day in and day out? And what causes you to deem it SO important, that you are willing to commit so much of your time to this "cause"?
I do psychology for a profession, so I don't expect everyone to do what they do for logical or rational reasons. That said, your loyalty to all things WoTC and your continual attempts to debate and correct anyone who makes any sleight against WoTC, borders on obsessive.
What gives? Do you have a wife? Kids? A 40 hour per week job? How can you possibly juggle any of these. And given all the time you spend online going after people like me, how much time do you actually spend playing d&d versus just talking about it?
He's not bothering anyone so who cares how much time he spends on this forum or anywhere else. The irony her is that you mention that whatever Wotc it does not affect you in any way. Yet your posting on this site about 5E and other Wotc related stuff. It's kind of a glass houses and stones kind of thing
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I do psychology for a profession...
Right...
Is there any 5th edition thread left in this forum that hasn't been entirely about personal mud throwing for the last week?
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Is there any 5th edition thread left in this forum that hasn't been entirely about personal mud throwing for the last week?
Since there isn't very much real information about 5E yet, we know a lot more about Scott than we do about the new game.
Hopefully we'll get some more substantial reports after the convention this weekend.
Interesting Betts. You're already dropping the system you've praised litteraly daily on these boards every since it arrived, for 5ED. If 4Ed was that great of a system, as you've suggested so often, why not stick with it? Then you wouldn't have to re-buy all those books you've already shelled out your hard earned dollars for in the 4Ed system?Does anyone have an opinion on what the "ideal" lifespan of a system is?I care less about the amount of time that a system was supported for, and more about the depth of material we receive over the course of its lifespan. Even though 4e has only been out for less than four years, it already has a tremendous amount of material. If I planned on sticking with 4e (I'm planning on switching to 5e, but if), I would have everything I ever need to run 4e games with a fantastic amount of variety for the rest of my life.
The only other consideration would be continued access to the digital tools, which we've heard (preliminarily) will still be available.
Dear KillerGM,
from one Pathfinder player to another:Scott Betts has played and enjoyed a game that we might not like to play ourselves and now he is willing to try another...
what's wrong with that?
leave it alone, please...
Good gaming to you all,
GRU
Seconded.
Seriously, as a 3e/PF player, at this point I'm freakin' embarrassed by the relentless neck-bearded nerdrage many of the previous edition players have been spewing ever since the 5e/D&D Next announcement. We get it. Rah rah "told you so!" Awesome. Get it all out of your system. Find someone to hold your hair back so you don't make a mess.
I was a 4e nay-sayer, and then I got off my high horse and realized it's just another game other players happen to enjoy. That's it. It's a game. Don't like it? Don't play it.
WotC are doing everything in their power, short of making a new OGL, to try and make amends, and make a positive turn for D&D, and still some people spew nothing but negativity. For all the ill-will WotC may have sewn with shotty marketing in the past few years, they have MORE than reaped enough vitriol to balance things out. Seriously, when will enough be enough?
I can't wait for the day when the doomsayers are satisfied and we can go back to talking about something positive involving a new chapter in gaming.
though kidding aside even Scott I'd venture to guess has views and opinions, to simply assume 'I will like this edition' is not a good way to go imo. Open minded is fine, essentially declaring you will like a new edition sight unseen, which is the gist I'm getting from Scott's posts - I'd call that risky ... if not madness.
Especially as we may well see some dialling back from the bits of 4e's system so many of us hated, but Scott apparently liked.
But hey, I'm sure you're right, as I just posted, Scott will like 5e.
I'm not telling you that I like 5e. I'm telling you that, given what I've experienced to be the case in the past, I find it very likely that I will like 5e. I would be very surprised if I did not like it.
How is that weird? I realize that expecting to be pleased by anything WotC does isn't really the norm 'round these parts, but madness?
I'll happily downgrade the 'madness' (which wasn't addressed to you anyway) to 'risky' ... for you in particular 'very risky'. You do seem to wave the banner a lot, I'd be very interested to see how you posted if you did dislike the way they went.
Which may well happen - they have the awkward position of having to please two large and mutually opposed camps on the direction the game should take afterall and the camp you've proudly been part of has been seen to fail to generate sufficient sales.
Risky old chap, risky. I'd hate to see you actually have to eat the proverbial crow ... oh okay, I'd chuckle. :-)
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New rule of three that talks a little about 4e and 5e. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ro3/20120124
I removed some personal attacks and the responses to them. Please be civil.
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Maybe I can provide a different perspective: I started playing D&D in the late 70s with the Red Box, followed shortly by AD&D (and yes, my mom did take a sharpie to certain illustrations in my copy of Dieties and Demigods). Switched to Traveller, Car Wars, and Battletech for a while until my mom stopped freaking out about me becoming a satanist due to D&D.
o_0?
She didn't mind you being an amoral mercenary, a couch potato wired up 24/7 to a virtual game suit (that's what a mech pilot is, after all), or running over pedestrians at the shopping mall?
But D&D? Ohnoes! He might be subjected to unsuitable role models!
Who will think of the children!
Makes me glad to have been an 80s gamer in the UK. We didn't have quite the same Satanist hysteria; we just were thought of as dorks.
LOL
Quite right, bugleyman.
It's an unnecessary redundancy.
I keel you. :)
I keel you dead. :)Quite right, bugleyman.
It's an unnecessary redundancy.
Fixed.
Maybe I can provide a different perspective: I started playing D&D in the late 70s with the Red Box, followed shortly by AD&D (and yes, my mom did take a sharpie to certain illustrations in my copy of Dieties and Demigods). Switched to Traveller, Car Wars, and Battletech for a while until my mom stopped freaking out about me becoming a satanist due to D&D.o_0?
She didn't mind you being an amoral mercenary, a couch potato wired up 24/7 to a virtual game suit (that's what a mech pilot is, after all), or running over pedestrians at the shopping mall?
But D&D? Ohnoes! He might be subjected to unsuitable role models!
Who will think of the children!Makes me glad to have been an 80s gamer in the UK. We didn't have quite the same Satanist hysteria; we just were thought of as dorks.
LOL
Careful with those, some couch potatoes here have a lot of AC ammo to spare ;)
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http://trollishdelver.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-we-learnt-from-first-d-next .html
THis blogger has a summary.
If you prefer twitter https://mobile.twitter.com/rolling20s also has the salient points.