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This totally sucks, but you can't let it beat you.
I guess the question is, what is the likelihood that any demonstration you run will be populated with the same under-appreciative jerks that stuffed up your experience the first time around?
From my PFS experience, the good players outnumber the crappy players two to one. Maybe for the four jerks you've met, there's eight great players in your area that you haven't met yet?
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Harles, I am very sorry for what you experienced. I can tell you that it is not indicative of the society as a whole. The vast majority of players I have encountered at more than 160 tables and two dozen conventions, have been at minimum, good players. I have made some very good friends in this community. I do hope you stick with PFS. If you have good players in the area that you play other games with, boardgames, 4E, etc, perhaps try to get them involved in PFS. A good gamer is a good gamer no matter the game they play.
I also hope that you reach out to your regional Venture-Officer. If you truly want to be involved in the PFS, I am sure they can help you link up with better players. If you are in my area, I welcome the opportunity to talk and I know my counterparts are as receptive.
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Ah piddlespot.
It's weird. I've met so many cool and awesome friends while gaming (at the time realizing there are people with whom I would be friends with) that I wouldn't give up my gaming experience for much.
I have so many questions about your experience (where are you? what did you run? were those people really such jerks?), but that really won't help your situation or your feelings much.
I hope you keep with it. More often than not, the people whom I've met are good fun players with whom I'd play again.
Email me if there is anything I can do to help or questions to answer.
-Pain
You can't let these individuals effect/ruin your hobby. If you play a huge campaign you will just have to keep looking for mature, friendly players (and trust me they are out there.) This experience should only make you stronger, because now you know what kind of crowd to avoid gaming with. Maybe start a smaller gaming crowd of people you can trust better, or know better.
I would use the negative energy they create into positive energy to get your mind off of them and use it to become better at the game, writing campaigns, studying the GM guide, reading the rules, or simply creating NPC to get good at character creation. The game has so much to offer, and these people should not destroy that creative world for you.
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Harles
Your experience really, really sounds bad. For me the Pathfinder Society has invigorated my gaming and GMing. I've now a lot of new friends that I didn't have before.
But back to your post:
Starting a gaming group is probably the most difficult bit. I learned a lot in the last two years. Most positive - but there are aspects to look out for. It often just takes one jerk player who just needs some friends and drags it down from there.
If you have an established group or at least some players you know and trust, then you can work against it. Otherwise your experience turns sour.
Here are my suggestions:
1) contact your local VC or VL.
2) Hopefully there are other stores around. The VC or VL should know. Try to get invited there to play a game at a different venue to get a more positive experience. Yes - you likely have to travel further.
3) once you had a more positive experience volunteer to GM at an established group. If you played alongside at least one or two than this can help a lot.
Only if all the above goes well proceed to step 4
4) Reach out to the shop owner and try again. But try to bring one or two players you trust from the other venue. Give them preferred treatment. Get them to help you make it a good experience.
Good or bad behaviour at a table often gets mirrored by other players. I currently GM a lot for younger kids. They tend to be influenced a lot easier - which can be good if they try to behave well and strive to mimic a player they look up at. It can be bad if one of them (or worse an adult) starts chaotic play and drags the experience down.
I'm mentioning this here as I know you don't have children at your table. But having them at my table made me more sensitive to observing this issue - and to guide against it.
So having one or two assertive players at a table who help the GM to stir away from negative behaviours can make a HUGE difference. Try to get help from players you can trust.
All the best luck. Please don't take my advice as gospel what to do. In the end only you will know best. But it would be a shame if you would leave the PFS with this bad experience. So
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In short, I put in a ton of work attempting to bring organized PF play to my area.
Awesome, hats off to you sir!
arrived late
Sometimes this is unavoidable, in which case they should have been profusely apologetic. If they weren't then they're just being rude.
left early
A PFS slot is generally run over 4-5 hours and players and GMs may have other engagements outside of that. Did the slot over-run forcing people to leave, or did they fail to provide enough time to play the mod? If it over-ran then it's just something to watch out for when running mods and you can't really blame the players. If they left early because they didn't realise how long the mod was then that's something for the GM to flag up at the beginning of the session, especially for newbies.
insulted the choices of adventures
This is a tricky one as PFS doesn't allow replaying, so choosing adventures in advance for a random group of people is a very hit and miss affair. You could very easily prep a mod to perfection only to find that every player has already played it and the game can't go ahead. I strongly recommend notifying the store which mod you want to run in advance and asking them to get sign-ups. That way everyone knows whether they can play before they turn up.
tried with every opportunity to break the game with ridiculous character ideas
A player's character is his own business and I don't think the GM should ever criticize their choice. Sure, some characters are more munchkinny than others, and some are just plain weird, but that's the way it goes. Organised play allows a huge variety of play and personality styles to mix, and that's part of its charm. Just go with the flow and have fun!
never registered with society
Maybe, but if their characters were unusual and powerful, and they complained about the mod choice, then I suspect they did have PFS #s but didn't give them to you as they were replaying (it was the only thing they could do to get a game but it isn't allowed). If they left early and didn't bother with a chronicle then that may be because they knew they couldn't use it. If you complained about their characters, or their illegal printouts, then they may not have been enjoying themselves either and decided not to stick it out.
used illegally obtained PDF printouts at the table
I don't care about this personally, and certainly don't audit people's characters or references. I just run the game. Every GM is different, but if you're trying to get PFS up and running in a new area then don't worry about this kind of paperwork. If they're new players and get to 5th level but are still using dodgy printouts then tactfully suggest they buy the books. It will keep the store happy as well. :-)
rules-lawyered the game
They definitely sound like existing PFS players! There can only be one set of rules in an organised play game like PFS because changes from table to table can really cause confusion and/or break immersion. When my players flag something up mid game I'll check the rules quickly, or ask them to do it for me if I'm busy. It means you're being fair and it helps the GM and players learn. Sometimes you have to draw the line, but I'm quicker to do that for environmental or NPC questions than with character questions, because the latter deserve a bit more care.
I don't know if they were just a bunch of rude, inconsiderate newbies who didn't know what to expect and failed to plan their time effectively, or if they were existing PFS players who were unable to play the games you prepared and therefore fudged it, coming across as rude or inconsiderate in the process. Chalk it up to bad luck and try again, but I strongly recommend looking at ways to sign people up in advance or else choosing less common scenarios to run. Which games did you prepare out of interest?
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The one thing I will say is that it sounds like you have an awesome gaming store there. If they encouraged you to come, and even gave you a free Beginner's Box, then the store is doing everything right. Now it's just a matter of finding players who will do the same.
If you run a demo of the Beginner's Box, then that might attract new players, who you can influence into being good players more easily than existing players. It's definitely something to consider.
As others have said, sometimes bringing your own friends along can help. Something that's worked for us locally is that we have an RPG meetup group on meetup.com, and we've held a couple of "meet and greet" dinners at restaurants instead of just scheduling games. This gives people a chance to get together and see who they click with as far as interests, gaming styles, and personalities, so they can recruit like minded players for whatever games they want to run.
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Sounds like you had a bad run of players.
All of the above posts have given some great advice that you shouldn't ignore - there are a lot of good people playing PFS and it sounds like you ran into some bad apples (and Stormfriend's blow-by-blow of your post might help make some sense into why they did it, if they weren't just being complete jerks).
All I can say is don't give up. Find some players you are cool with and don't change anything else.
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used illegally obtained PDF printouts at the table
I don't care about this personally, and certainly don't audit people's characters or references. I just run the game. Every GM is different, but if you're trying to get PFS up and running in a new area then don't worry about this kind of paperwork. If they're new players and get to 5th level but are still using dodgy printouts then tactfully suggest they buy the books. It will keep the store happy as well. :-)
I disagree. IMO, new players/events is the best time to nip things like this in the bud. If you let player get away with breaking the rules, it will become more pervasive and difficult to correct. Pointing it out in the beginning is important to set the expectation. Of course, you need to do it with tact so the players are not discouraged from continuing to play.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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used illegally obtained PDF printouts at the tableI don't care about this personally, and certainly don't audit people's characters or references. I just run the game. Every GM is different, but if you're trying to get PFS up and running in a new area then don't worry about this kind of paperwork. If they're new players and get to 5th level but are still using dodgy printouts then tactfully suggest they buy the books. It will keep the store happy as well. :-)I disagree. IMO, new players/events is the best time to nip things like this in the bud. If you let player get away with breaking the rules, it will become more pervasive and difficult to correct. Pointing it out in the beginning is important to set the expectation. Of course, you need to do it with tact so the players are not discouraged from continuing to play.
I recently had a situation just like this at my table. A player who'd been leveling the same character for the last couple months had been failing to tally his gold + prestige. Luckily, he hadn't purchased anything more than a couple hundred gold ever. The reality was, he was a new player that was too afraid to ask how to deal with chronicle sheets after the GMs initial explanation of it.
I'm not sure this sort of thing applies to your situation, Harles, but, if you're up to it, I'd try to sit down and talk with the people that came to your last games. If you explain how PFS works and they don't want to play that way, that's fine -- a lot of gamers don't like the restrictions PFS places on their characters, and that's fine for them. I just wouldn't give up hope that there's no one else out there because, as the responses here indicate, there surely are.
My problem was that they were deliberately (and said as much), trying to break the game and to create a character that would limit the fun of other players. (Such as "I'm a pacifist character; if you do damage to that monster, I won't heal you later in the game.")
So they were just jerks then, bad luck! :-)
I've run about 26 games now at various places and I've never had a player that was a jerk*. GMing at conventions (and stores) is a far harder thing to do than GMing for the usual crowd at home as you never know who is going to turn up. It sounds like the store is supporting you, which is great, so its worth trying again. If you can build a gaming community the end result will be worth it.
*Actually I did have one player when I was GMing 4e who was more interested in texting her friends than playing the game. She wasn't destructive, she just never paid attention. She only played once afaik, so I guess it wasn't for her.
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Having done stuff like that for several OP campaigns over the years, I can safely say that organized play isn't for everyone. It sounds to me like you ran headlong into a group like that. Don't let that get to you man! I've run into people like this at cons and stores for years
Was there that one person in the group that was enjoying themselves or were they all arses.
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I think the trap that some of us fall into here is that we want to solve Harles' problem for him and get him back into the game. That's not what Harles is looking for here. He had a bad experience and he wanted to talk about it. His feelings are valid and I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to go through it again. Everyone who has GMed for any length of time has their 'jerk player' story. Harles had it in spades. I understand where he's coming from. I can't lower his standards for him, and I can't tell him it will be better next time he tries. All I can say is "I feel your pain". GMing organized play in the public setting can be a harrowing experience.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Harles, what sort of time-frame are you looking at? Are people interested in just a half hour of play, or are they good with sitting down for four or five hours?
A few years ago, Paizo published a "Treasure Chest" boxed set, with an introductory adventure, "Into the Haunted Forest". If you can get a copy, it makes for a great beginning adventure, and the game stats for the NPCs translate very smoothly into the Beginner Box ruleset.
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Harles,
I have well past a hundred tables under my belt. I can tell you keep at it. There are going to be some bad days, some bad retailers and some bad tables but more often than not you are going to make new friends and have a lot of fun!
Take the box set, its great! Run it for newbies and kids.
For short sessions and crazy players that just want to break crap run We be Goblins. See if that helps?
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Doug's partially hit the nail on the head. I did need to vent. But I'm also looking for some encouragement to run some sessions of Beginner Box (which I've found here - thanks, everybody).
Maybe after a few sessions of Beginner Box, something else will develop. Perhaps Society, perhaps not. Only time will tell.
Hi Harles,
I'm glad to hear that first experience hasn't put you off entirely, though it seems to me that the problem was with the players, not with Pathfinder Society. If you run a Beginner Box demo, who's to say those same players aren't going to show up and cause the same kind of trouble and disrespect?
I think it's wise to put some distance between that first experience and your next session. I hope venting here has helped, and provided you with a few ideas to take away.
Whether it's Pathfinder Society or Beginner Box demo, the same advice applies. Contact your local Venture-Captain / Venture-Lieutenant, and bring a friend or two with you to your next session - your VC/VL may even know someone in your area looking for a game or prepared to help, or feel free to email me, and I can ask around.
Cheers,
--
Stephen (DarkWhite)
Pathfinder Society 4-Star GM
Venture-Captain, Melbourne Australia
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Lots of good advice here so I won't echo what has already been said. I will say that Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society are always looking for motivated, good people to grow our game and our campaign. It sounds like you are exactly the type of person we are looking for to further Pathfinder Society. As many others, I have had my own bad experiences with the more than 100 tables I have GMed, including one where a player wanted argue incessantly for four hours after I was hired here. I encourage you to keep your head up, keep that motivation, and schedule a Beginner Box event. Once you do so, if the players provide you, the GM a quality experience, then talk to those players and ask if they would be interested in some Pathfinder Society game days. We have the newly released PFS Character Creation Guide using the Beginner Box to help bridge that gap.
If there is anything I can do to help your game days, please don't hesitate to email me.
I conclude with a hearty thank you for your efforts. They are appreciated.
Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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Everybody, thanks again for the appreciation and advice.
It's been 4 months since I've tried to run Society. I know that several of the players have "moved on" and don't hang around the store anymore. The one guy who was stalking me and following me to my workplace (didn't even get to that situation in my rant), I've told the owner that he's cut off from my games - and the owner agrees.
Maybe one day I can try to run a session at GenCon (since I'm there every year anyway).
Yes come to GenCon (dangles carrot). Come and run a few sessions. They post rewards for GM's willing to put in their hard earned time but I can tell you that a PFS GM should GM at least one of the big cons. It is just a way cool experience. I would have to say after doing 10 sessions at GenCon 2010 my view on how to GM changed quite a bit.
You get to meet fellow GM's from around the world. See how fellow GM's run the same scenario's your running and swapping notes on how things went and how fellow GM's respond to inventive player ideas.
If your insane enough you can GM on Sunday morning to see how worn out the GM's tend to be and see how good that sweet smell of gamer in the morning.
On top of that you will make friends there and keep in contact with which is always good.
If you are really daring you could do some non PFS stuff in the middle of the night like Battlepods (Battletech) and discovered that sleep is over-rated.
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Everybody, thanks again for the appreciation and advice.
It's been 4 months since I've tried to run Society. I know that several of the players have "moved on" and don't hang around the store anymore. The one guy who was stalking me and following me to my workplace (didn't even get to that situation in my rant), I've told the owner that he's cut off from my games - and the owner agrees.
Maybe one day I can try to run a session at GenCon (since I'm there every year anyway).
Dear Harles,
I totally share your sentiments, I have been the coordinator of a society for almost 6 months now, and I have indeed dealt and unfortunately still do deal with many a jerk and inconsiderate players, so please let me allow me to give you some advice.
1) Be nice to a point--If you have a scheduled time, stick to it, start regardless of whether or not everyone who has RSVPed has shown up. If they show up late, tell them that you are sorry, but they cannot play unless they show up on time. Those who really want to play, make the time to play. If you don't meet quota, don't be discouraged, it will happen the first few months where you have inconsistent players, but the true players, will stick it out and make it work! (And then you can get them to be GM's too)
2)If they are rude, you can sign their chronicle sheet and ask them to leave, but try and work it out first. We don't get paid to coordinate, so I don't take no rudeness from any of my players or GM's. If they are so rude and just terrible, I end the game and give the players who did right their chronicle sheets. (only done it once.)
3) You are the GM, rules lawyering or not, what you say goes. I've got a lot of rules lawyers who have come to the point where I've finally said to them "this is how we're doing it. If you want to fight with me about it, then you run this session, otherwise please stop." This argument is how I ended up with a good number of my GM's, who when the tables turned on them, became incredibly humbled and better players.
4) Start at level one.. The Season 3 Intros along with the Beginner's Box are two of the best things to start a new society with. It's almost time for me to have a beginners' bash myself. ^_^ Although Mists of Mwangi and Voice in the Void (The one with the abberant sorceress) are good adventures, they aren't good starter ones. They are good to play after the players have leveled into 2 and 3.
5) To get players to register, I give an in-game gift like a free re-roll or a wayfinder to use in-game. (But that was for my first wave of new players.)
6) Concerning using illegal PDF's there's only so much we can do. What I have a policy of "no laptops". But there still isn't much we can do, the many evils of our technology. Consider to promote the shop in other ways, such as promoting dice purchases, additional books, character sheet printouts. My player coordinator, has a mini-painting business associated with the store, and we promote his business while he plays, and his business has grown significantly.
Last but not least, don't give up the fight. Being a Pathfinder is not an easy business, and running your own society is not any easier. For every bad player you meet, you will meet 5 amazing ones, and they on their own are the reason I keep on going with the society, despite all our growing pains.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions on how to build a stronger society, but nevertheless, good luck my friend. Know that you are not alone in your endeavors!