So, you post a link without commenting on it?
Since you have nothing to say, the only reason I can conceive of for creating this thread is to watch the flames that will result.
Agreed. I know from experience that this kind of thread cannot go over well. Hopefully it gets locked before the flames start.
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Actually, the story is pretty well written.
Commenting on it would have been a plus, but I see nothing trolly about the news story.
-Tundra
In a very similar situation i decided that an ass (and face) kicking simply did not hurt enough to warrant taking the knife out and stabbing my attacker, but i can definetly see where someone else would feel differently.
You do not loose your right not to be assaulted simply because you're not 18. You still have a right to self defense when you're 14. The "oh they're just kids" excuse doesn't make a broken nose stop bleeding or a concussion hurt any less.
Interesting.
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So, you post a link without commenting on it?
Since you have nothing to say, the only reason I can conceive of for creating this thread is to watch the flames that will result.
The title wasn't enough of a comment? I was just surprised that the US legal system actually worked for a kid defending himself (albeit lethally defending himself).
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I empathize with the dead boy's family. They've lost a son and they're grieving. That said, the judge made the right decision. A young man tried to escape a potentially violent situation. When his assailant persisted, he defended himself.
I empathize with the dead boy's family. They've lost a son and they're grieving. That said, the judge made the right decision. A young man tried to escape a potentially violent situation. When his assailant persisted, he defended himself.
+1
Self defense is a fundamental human right.
From the article, seems like a clear cut case of self-defence. The kid did everything he could to avoid the fight, was jumped from behind, feared for his life and couldn't escape. Meets the definition of self-defence up here in Canada.
The problem (in some areas) is the knife vs fists thing. Fists are really, really unlikely to kill someone. I know someone's itching to post a link of where it happened, but keep in mind how OFTEN people get hit with fists and don't die. Its not worth killing someone to avoid an injury to yourself that will be fine in a day or two.
I don't know if there was a size/strength discrepency, or If the judge was sane enough to realize that people really don't think right after their brains been bounced off the inside of their skull.
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The problem (in some areas) is the knife vs fists thing. Fists are really, really unlikely to kill someone... Its not worth killing someone to avoid an injury to yourself that will be fine in a day or two.
I don't know if there was a size/strength discrepency, or If the judge was sane enough to realize that people really don't think right after their brains been bounced off the inside of their skull.
And I swore I wasn't going to post here... {sigh}
I am in Lee County, just north of Naples. The boy who was charged, Saavedra, had been bullied by his attacker and his buddies for over a year; some reports indicated escalating degrees of violence by the attackers/bulliers. The school administrators and the attacker's parents, for unreported reasons, were ineffective in stopping the bullying. The attacker and his buddies also had a history of bullying other students as well.
Even if Saavedra had managed to successfully defend himself unarmed in this instance from his attackers, he probably assumed he would just be attacked again (as he had in the past). Reports indicated that Saavedra did not intend to kill his attacker.
Too often, bullies come from a background of bullying and/or abuse themselves, so I'm certainly not happy about what happened. But damn it, at some point, if all the adults failed to protect him, what options were left to Saavedra?
I'd like to point out that the article mentions he was carrying a penknife. So we're looking at a utility knife with a blade maybe two inches long. Not an easy item to kill someone with if you're not trained in combat. The fact that he managed to stab his assailant 12 times seems to indicate that the knife did not deter his attacker.
I agree with thejeff (which is weird, because it sounds like I'm agreeing with myself) that it should never have been allowed to come to a head like this.
I don't want to support making snap judgments on appearance, but one of those two boys looks like a dick and the other one looks creepy enough to stab a dude 12 times in the chest.
** spoiler omitted **
You are a dark and twisted individual.
Hell, concussions (brains been bounced off the inside of their skull) are nothing to laugh about. "Fine in a couple of days" is a joke.
Well I've had several, and I'm perfectly fine...
dammit.
But yes, I've had/seen enough beat downs to know that thats the usual result. I got knocked down from behind and literally punted in the face (i had on a backpack and couldnt get up quickly) and was in school the next day. (mind you, thats with a thick skull and a 5 year perfect attendance streak on the line)
Like i said above, I'm not exactly blaming the stabber for this. Someone above asked what the possible problem was and I tried to lay out that side of the argument, mostly because I can see both sides.
It sounded like he was outnumbered, but I could be wrong. A knife wins over one pair of fists, but four pairs can end up killing just as easily.
I don't know if the other kids that were following were actively in on it or just the usual circle of yahoos who show up to watch/be the human ring.
From the article, seems like a clear cut case of self-defence. The kid did everything he could to avoid the fight, was jumped from behind, feared for his life and couldn't escape. Meets the definition of self-defence up here in Canada.So it took a DOZEN knife stabs for someone to defend themselves against fists? The right to self defense ends when you've successfully deterred your assailant and ended the threat. If you continue to wound and kill him while he's helpless... that's murder.
I refuse to get involved in the discussion about whether or not the stabbing was justified, as I have no desire to engage in bloody political debates any more, but I would like to point out that, depending on the size of the assailant, the size of the knife, and the assailant's reaction to the first stabs, it's possible. Though it's possible for someone to go down with a couple stabs, it's also possible to take multiple stab woulds and keep fighting. It all depends on a massive array of factors. Combat injuries are in no way a clear cut science. I won't say the kid was justified or that all the stabs were necessary, as I wasn't there, but it is completely plausible. Mental state should also be taken into account. People do not and generally cannot make well reasoned choices in this sort of situation. Again, not a justification or excuse for either side, just something that should be taken into account.
From the article, seems like a clear cut case of self-defence. The kid did everything he could to avoid the fight, was jumped from behind, feared for his life and couldn't escape. Meets the definition of self-defence up here in Canada.So it took a DOZEN knife stabs for someone to defend themselves against fists? The right to self defense ends when you've successfully deterred your assailant and ended the threat. If you continue to wound and kill him while he's helpless... that's murder.
When someone has just hit you in the back of the head , and is still trying to punch you in the face, you do not stab ... stop to see if they're still coming, stab, look and see if they've stopped yet , stab, reassess the situationi, stab take a minute to see how much blood is comming out yet if any.
Its stabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstab Oh holy s%*% what just happened.
A massive pain like a broken arm, stab wound, or nail through the foot can sometimes take a few seconds to register with the body, much less be noticed by the other person.
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From the article, seems like a clear cut case of self-defence. The kid did everything he could to avoid the fight, was jumped from behind, feared for his life and couldn't escape. Meets the definition of self-defence up here in Canada.So it took a DOZEN knife stabs for someone to defend themselves against fists? The right to self defense ends when you've successfully deterred your assailant and ended the threat. If you continue to wound and kill him while he's helpless... that's murder.
Remember that "stab wound" is pretty much any wound delivered by the weapon that is more than a scratch. A quarter-inch penetration is a "stab wound." We're not talking a dozen to-the-hilt wounds, in all likelihood.
And again: penknife. It's a small utility blade, not a combat weapon. If he had to hit him a dozen times, chances are his assailant was not deterred. The fact that he hit the heart at all is surprising.
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Having been battered with a variety of objects in my time, including steelcap boots, trash cans, cricket-bats, baseball bats, glass bottles, a car, a star-picket, a combat knife and the obligatory fists, knees and teeth of a variety of a**~$@+@s in my time, I fully support the right to defend yourself, especially against 'bullies' and worse. Twelve blood-tests to my name, five cracked ribs, three broken arms, multiple cuts, bruising and green-stick fractures to the jaw, bones in my shoulders and several teeth missing, but damn me if I am going to sit there and take physical abuse from some Oxygen-Thief.
That said, the family of Dylan Nuno have my sympathy for a lost family member, if not my sympathy for what they must see as a 'miscarriage' of justice. Dickery should not be tolerated, but carrying a weapon around is just a recipe for disaster. Perhaps next time a parent is told their child is being overly aggressive in school, they will hopefully sit up and take notice instead of the good old "my little darling would never do that!" and then get s%$*ty with the faculty/other parents. Seen it happen faaaaaaaar too many times, because the kids know exactly how to push their parent's buttons.
And yes, I support security cameras in schools, even in the toilets (placed away from the urinals/bowls etc, naturally) so that at no stage can a parent not be provided with footage of their child being assaulted/assaulting someone else.
It's poor consolation, but perhaps the 'friends' of the deceased bully should be thanking their deity of choice, given that this happened in America, land of the endless array of semi-automatic weapons, that Saavedra wasn't armed with a gun.
I know I'm probably being less than sympathetic here, but after school and high-school, then 16 years working in the retail industry and watching the same sort of flat-headed morons come in and try to be 'gangsta', I've developed a deep and bitter loathing for the asshattery of 'bullies'.
The stabber should now, that he's free, sue the dead kids family for everything they have because of the emotional damage he received during the time he spent in jail and the trauma of having to defend himself in court and the trauma of killing their uncontrollably violent son. Only then can we have some good old fashioned American style justice.
.................
I'm going to put some faith in Humanity here and say "Sarcasm detected"
Maybe he was sarcastic, but I would not be surprised to know he typed that in earnest..................I'm going to put some faith in Humanity here and say "Sarcasm detected"
Heavy on the sarcasm and cynicism but just you wait there will be lawsuits and books and lawsuits about the books and maybe even an cheap made for TV movie.
And yes, I support security cameras in schools, even in the toilets (placed away from the urinals/bowls etc, naturally) so that at no stage can a parent not be provided with footage of their child being assaulted/assaulting someone else.
My friend's kid was attacked in one the school's restrooms and the staff didn't take it seriously. When it happened again and the kid saw his attacker, the reason (why no action was taken) was obvious: A-grade football player and the school was enjoying a winning streak that season. Eventually, my friend's job took him elsewhere and his kid bounced back (supportive friends), but cameras would've at least forced the faculty to do something.
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I'm going to weigh in and say from what I see the boy who used the knife did almost exactly what he was supposed to in order to prove a self defense case.
Showing off the knife on the bus was a mistake and could have been construed as a threat, however he attempted to leave the scene, was followed and the other guy attacked first from behind with other possible aggressors with him.
Now what I do not know is where or what sort of wounds were caused by the knife or what the aggressor was doing while these wounds were delivered. However I can say that with a small knife slashing/stabbing someone up 12 times can happen rather quickly and without even purposefully landing some of those blows (glancing off an arm while stabbing into the chest for example could cause a wound on the arm and the chest, with an connect possible on the withdraw allowing for three wounds from a single attack for example).
Florida's stand your ground law only further exonerates the defender -- in fact he went a step further than was needed in Florida (attempting to leave the scene).
It sounded like he was outnumbered, but I could be wrong. A knife wins over one pair of fists, but four pairs can end up killing just as easily.I don't know if the other kids that were following were actively in on it or just the usual circle of yahoos who show up to watch/be the human ring.
I've seen and tried to break up enough fights (school teacher) that I wonder: what's the difference between the two groups you are stating?
I have students who think a fight (even one that is obviously going to be a beatdown) to be legitimate entertainment, and will actively try to stop someone trying to prevent/break up the fight because they haven't got enough video phone footage to put on YouTube yet. In my mind, that absolutely makes them "active participants."
I agree with Kelsey MacAilbert that there are a million and one details we don't know about this situation, looking at it from a distance, but from what we do know, I can certainly sympathize with the state of mind of Saavedra that he needed to defend himself.
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From the article, seems like a clear cut case of self-defence. The kid did everything he could to avoid the fight, was jumped from behind, feared for his life and couldn't escape. Meets the definition of self-defence up here in Canada.So it took a DOZEN knife stabs for someone to defend themselves against fists? The right to self defense ends when you've successfully deterred your assailant and ended the threat. If you continue to wound and kill him while he's helpless... that's murder.
Mustnotreplymustnotreplymustnotreply
Well I for one agree with some of these statements sort of.
I've seen and tried to break up enough fights (school teacher) that I wonder: what's the difference between the two groups you are stating?
One kicks you in the face. One either does nothing, or stops you from leaving to avoid having your face kicked, but its still a 1 on 1 fight.
The important difference is that fighting one person vs fighting fighting 7 is exponentially less likely to cause long term injury.
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If the kid is stopping you from running away, then he's actively part of the fight.I've seen and tried to break up enough fights (school teacher) that I wonder: what's the difference between the two groups you are stating?One kicks you in the face. One either does nothing, or stops you from leaving to avoid having your face kicked, but its still a 1 on 1 fight.
The important difference is that fighting one person vs fighting fighting 7 is exponentially less likely to cause long term injury.
Agreed -- he is actively stopping you from performing one of the steps of self defense.
Darkwking-If the kid is stopping you from running away, then he's actively part of the fight.
Abraham spalding- If the kid is stopping you from running away, then he's actively part of the fight.
Abraham spalding
In terms of legal responsibility probably. They can legally just stand there and watch, but they'd be obligated to make some effort to let someone by , and certainly couldn't throw them back in (which was sop on the elementary school fight circuit) If they're all standing in a circle the circle makes it hard for the person to leave, but its a very murkey ground between just watching and participating.
But in terms of "I'm going to get seriously hurt, should I use a weapon against fists?" the seven people standing around don't really factor into it. One person hitting you while 7 people watch hurts, but its not remotely as likely to cause permanant injury as seven people kicking you. That's the difference.
This makes knifing someone to avoid it... well not wrong, but questionable. Seven people kicking you absolutely will do some permanent damage, so there's no gray area about breaking out the knife, fence post, chain, shovel or handgun to even the odds.
The idea of justice is to have the bad thing happen to the bad person, in proportion to how bad their actions were. You don't go judge dread and shoot literbugs. A beatdown with fists isn't nearly as bad as stabbing someone to death, so this can look like overdoing it. A beatdown to someone who doesn't deserve it may seem a fair trade to avoid knifing someone who only deserves a beatdown from the objective and lofty perch of a courtroom. After a being chased through the streets and hit in the back of the head.. not so much.
To reiterate what I said above, I'm not going to say that the kid was wrong. But some folks are asking "Why is this even an issue?". The issue is that the state doesn't want people bringing knives to a fist fight because it just results in more bodies than it prevents. The "oh I'm the good guy he was the ass he deserved to get stab" routine doesn't usually come this clear cut, and in all honesty the system probably doesn't care anyway.
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In Florida -- where this took place -- what he did is text book self defense. All that is required in Florida is the immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury and you may respond with deadly force. There have been several much more questionable cases go to trial in Florida already that have been cleared as self defense before this case.
Now anywhere else in the USA and all bets are off -- the showing of the knife could have broken a self defense case depending on where the case was.
Now some facts I would like to have before I really persue the issue myself:
1. What happened when the stabbing started. This is vitally important in my opinion. If the kid kept swinging then yes stabbing again was perfectly legitimate. If he curled up into a ball screaming for his mom much less so -- the key is we don't know which happened or if something else entirely happened.
2. Where and how did the stab wounds happen. As I mentioned earlier (both these points actually were mentioned by me earlier) stab wounds are odd things and how and when they happen matters greatly.
3. What were the other possible aggressors doing before, during and after the stabbing started.
Now I've advocated before on this site about safe and legal self defense -- I'm certainly not going to condone going crazy with a knife on someone in most cases, and I'm not saying that the kid that did the stabbing was morally right in doing so -- only that he was legally covered in the area he was in. I feel these are very key and core concepts to my past posts. I didn't claim the boy was right, I simply said that what he did was almost exactly what was needed to prove a self defense case.
What we do know is:
1. The 'defender' attempted to leave and not be in a situation where he was required to defend himself.
2. The agressor came after him anyways and indeed physically attacked him.
3. Therefore the danger was real, physical and immediate.
4. There was the potential for multiple attackers -- though this was not realized.
5. The defender stabbed the aggressor 12 times from which the aggressor later died.
Now in addition to this we know that the defender did at one point show his knife to two other teens -- whom we don't know were involved in any way shape or form other than having witnessed the knife prior to the incident in which it was used.
I'm going to post this again: A layman explanation of self defense.
Now in most states using the knife would have had much more legal issues than what is presented in this case. The only reason this case was so clear cut is because it happened in Florida with its stand your ground law.
People can die from getting struck by unarmed attacks, it's not hard at all. If the victim can't win in a fist fight and can't run away, his options are limited. I don't expect him to just get assaulted.
People can die from sneezing too hard and having an aneurism or being hit in the face with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It doesn't mean that when the lady in macy's sprays me with perfume I can whip out a .45 and blow them away because the possibility of it happening is very remote. Part of me, not all of me mind you, but a part says "its a bloody nose, its not worth killing anyone over"
Most places, even with stand your ground laws, require equal force: unarmed vs unarmed armed vs armed. Multiple attackers can be considered a weapon. Heck, in new york as a matter of law you can't even shoot someone in your home unless they're armed. ( as a matter of practice however your chances of convicting the home owner are near zilch)
edit It seems as though this was the contention on the part of the prosecution as well. You can defend yourself, but can't use lethal force against a non lethal threat Here
To abraham: The stand your ground law seems rather redundant in this case, since the kid with the knife attempted to leave the ground in question until struck in the back of the head.
Now I've advocated before on this site about safe and legal self defense -- I'm certainly not going to condone going crazy with a knife on someone in most cases-
I've never seen, or even heard of, a knife actually used sanely. Once it gets to that point unless there's a green beret involved its all one big insane hacking, slashiing mess with wild instinct taking over.. especially after being hit.
Well fair enough on the using a knife sanely -- I really can't argue with that at all.
The reason I mention the specific stand your ground law of Florida is because it does allow for unequal force in self defense cases.
Personally I think the Florida law is ripe with potential for abuse (and I believe it has already be abused rather hard) -- however with how it is currently the normal problem of inappropriate force has been cleared away.
Again if this wasn't Florida then a number of issues would be had in this case (some of which you have pointed out and some I have, but I'll try to list the major ones quickly):
1. The previous showing of the knife to people could have been construed as a threat. However the potential of attack here is low enough that the aggressor would have lost a 'self defense' case for attacking the kid with a knife.
2. The point the threat ends is when self defense normally ends -- as such the twelve wounds could have been considered excessive.
3. The very use of lethal force (and for the viewers at home the use of a knife construes lethal force regardless of what you intend to do with it) in a fist fight could have been considered inappropriate and caused the self defense case to be lost (however this isn't a guarantee depending on if the aggressor had stated a purpose of killing, maiming or seriously injuring the defender before actually attacking him).
4. Possible 'fighting words' laws could mean something that the defender said before the actual fight could have negated his self defense case (though I personally don't have any information on what was or was not said before the fight -- I'm simply pointing out the possibility).