paizo.com Recent Posts in Why so much Rogue Hate?paizo.com Recent Posts in Why so much Rogue Hate?2012-01-04T16:54:13Z2012-01-04T16:54:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Kellekhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1822012-10-29T22:11:50Z2012-10-29T22:11:50Z<p>In the last 2 campaigns I played, we had ALOT of traps. Most of them were magical, and it was more of a game to stay alive than to deal the most damage. I played a ninja and my friend played a rogue, and with no evasion at my level we relied on her for traps. She didn't care in the least or feel underpowered in comparison because she plays a GOOD rogue. I have also never met a bard player that likes playing an Archaeologist.</p>
<p>It comes down to how someone plays a character and class. Rogue will always have tricks that a Ninja wont. Ninja is just a highly specialized Rogue.</p>In the last 2 campaigns I played, we had ALOT of traps. Most of them were magical, and it was more of a game to stay alive than to deal the most damage. I played a ninja and my friend played a rogue, and with no evasion at my level we relied on her for traps. She didn't care in the least or feel underpowered in comparison because she plays a GOOD rogue. I have also never met a bard player that likes playing an Archaeologist.
It comes down to how someone plays a character and class. Rogue...Kellek2012-10-29T22:11:50ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Zark (alias of TomJohn)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1812012-01-07T12:39:32Z2012-01-07T12:39:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Strife2002 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">LazarX wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wildonion wrote:</div><blockquote> Not to mention that a one level dip into Rogue means you can snag a whole heck of a lot of skill points and class skills, along with their coveted Trapfinding. </blockquote>The bonus you get for Trapfinding is tied directly to your rogue class levels. Dipping for one isn't going to get you that much. And the fighter snagging evasion is doing so at the cost of armor. </blockquote>The bonus to Disable Device is not the point, it's being able to locate and disarm magical traps. </blockquote><p>In Pathfinder <b>any class</b> can find/locate traps, even magical traps.
<p>Once you find them, traps can be delt with.
<br />
<li>Other classes can Disable them. Urban ranger, archaeologist, etc.
<br />
<li>You can trigger them. Use items, summons, etc. or let some one in the group set them off.
<br />
<li>Dispel them
<br />
<li>Avoid them, go around them, jump over them, fly, dimension door, etc.
<br />
<li>etc.</p>Strife2002 wrote:LazarX wrote: Wildonion wrote: Not to mention that a one level dip into Rogue means you can snag a whole heck of a lot of skill points and class skills, along with their coveted Trapfinding.
The bonus you get for Trapfinding is tied directly to your rogue class levels. Dipping for one isn't going to get you that much. And the fighter snagging evasion is doing so at the cost of armor. The bonus to Disable Device is not the point, it's being able to locate and disarm magical...Zark (alias of TomJohn)2012-01-07T12:39:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Gilman the Dog (alias of sheep999)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1802012-01-06T22:39:49Z2012-01-06T22:39:49Z<p>Read the whole thread, looks like a lot of semantics, and not really an argument.</p>
<p>Here's how I see the problem: Someone says, "Rogues are weak relative to other classes" and someone else who likes rogues hears "Rogues are not worth playing." The rest of the posts then continue with "I can build a rogue that's fun to play," followed by posts of "Sure, but can't we at least agree he's weak?"</p>
<p>Here's my take: I like the word 'rogue'. I like a character based on stealth and thievery, a little sneak with different combat mechanics than other classes. I like the idea behind the rogue classes of past RPG's. Stealth and thievery used to be his purview alone. You simply couldn't pickpockets (with few exceptions) without rogue levels in 1e. </p>
<p>That's just not true anymore. Any class can take any skill. If it's a class skill, you get a whopping +3. If you're a modern rogue, you get trapsense. This is negated by an uber-cheap wand. No one in any of my groups has played a rogue since Pathfinder came out ('cept me). I play them knowing their limitations, again, because I like the concept. I build the same concept with other classes, already named several times in this thread, but I still like the name 'Rogue'.</p>
<p>But anyone who reads the number crunching on these boards knows they're outshined. I like that about them. </p>
<p>I have found a place where they excel. I have a sadistic DM who plunked us in a world where spellcasters (divine and arcane) are illegal, and the authorities have means of ferreting them out. Oh, and he doesn't allow Ninjas in this world, either. In comes the rogue, who hides in shadows without the use of spells, talks guards out of arresting his spellcasting friends without the benefit of glibness, and who registers a blank when the powers that be scan him for spell ability.</p>
<p>Big block of text, sorry. </p>
<p>I love the rogue, the weak, underappreciated rogue. </p>
<p>He will rise again, in some as-yet unwritten edition.</p>Read the whole thread, looks like a lot of semantics, and not really an argument.
Here's how I see the problem: Someone says, "Rogues are weak relative to other classes" and someone else who likes rogues hears "Rogues are not worth playing." The rest of the posts then continue with "I can build a rogue that's fun to play," followed by posts of "Sure, but can't we at least agree he's weak?"
Here's my take: I like the word 'rogue'. I like a character based on stealth and thievery, a little...Gilman the Dog (alias of sheep999)2012-01-06T22:39:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Strife2002 (alias of Michael Hendrick)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1792012-01-06T20:23:12Z2012-01-06T20:23:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">LazarX wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wildonion wrote:</div><blockquote> Not to mention that a one level dip into Rogue means you can snag a whole heck of a lot of skill points and class skills, along with their coveted Trapfinding. </blockquote>The bonus you get for Trapfinding is tied directly to your rogue class levels. Dipping for one isn't going to get you that much. And the fighter snagging evasion is doing so at the cost of armor. </blockquote><p>The bonus to Disable Device is not the point, it's being able to locate and disarm magical traps.LazarX wrote:Wildonion wrote: Not to mention that a one level dip into Rogue means you can snag a whole heck of a lot of skill points and class skills, along with their coveted Trapfinding.
The bonus you get for Trapfinding is tied directly to your rogue class levels. Dipping for one isn't going to get you that much. And the fighter snagging evasion is doing so at the cost of armor. The bonus to Disable Device is not the point, it's being able to locate and disarm magical traps.Strife2002 (alias of Michael Hendrick)2012-01-06T20:23:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?wraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1782012-01-06T20:22:47Z2012-01-06T20:22:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">AdamMeyers wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Ah. Well, it appears we are arguing past each other again. My point is really that these builds are problematic, and the same general idea would work better with a different class. If we agree on that in principle, I'll lay off. </blockquote><p>Um, yeah, that's what I said in my previous posts, like I admitted the technomage isn't doing anything better than anyone else, if you read what I said. That's why I didn't understand why you were arguing with me.
<p>I just feel like the complaints on how to overcome the rogue apply to all classes, and the situational ways to beat these builds apply to all classes as well, either the same ways or each one having their own individual "well this could bet him". A lot of the ways people are pointing out to beat my builds would work just as well against a fighter or ranger and are over-stating the weaknesses of the rogue.</p>
<p>But it doesn't matter, that's what we're all saying: The rogue is weak, I just don't think he's as worthless as some assume. </blockquote><p>Our point is that anything the rogue can do someone else can do better, and bring a second option(s) to the table also. So that leads many people to ask "Why go rogue?".
<p>I am not saying rogues can't be useful in a game. I am saying I can do it better with another class or combination of classes. </p>
<p>PS:For the next "rogue hate" thread maker. It is not hate. It is frustration that the rogue we envision is not doing it for us. Now if we said rogues suck and they don't function that would be different.</p>AdamMeyers wrote:Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Ah. Well, it appears we are arguing past each other again. My point is really that these builds are problematic, and the same general idea would work better with a different class. If we agree on that in principle, I'll lay off.
Um, yeah, that's what I said in my previous posts, like I admitted the technomage isn't doing anything better than anyone else, if you read what I said. That's why I didn't understand why you were arguing with me. I...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2012-01-06T20:22:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Wrexham3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1772012-01-06T19:33:34Z2012-01-06T19:33:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate wrote:</div><blockquote> Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/ </blockquote><p>As an actual archaeologist, I'm here to tell you that that way lies the Dark Side. And tea breaks - lots of them.J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate wrote:Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/
As an actual archaeologist, I'm here to tell you that that way lies the Dark Side. And tea breaks - lots of them.Wrexham32012-01-06T19:33:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?KrispyXIVhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1762012-01-06T18:07:46Z2012-01-06T18:07:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate wrote:</div><blockquote> Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/ </blockquote><p>But Archaeologist is awesome!
<p>Which I suppose is part of the problem; the alternatives <i>are</i> awesome.</p>J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate wrote:Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/
But Archaeologist is awesome! Which I suppose is part of the problem; the alternatives are awesome.KrispyXIV2012-01-06T18:07:46ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1752012-01-06T18:05:07Z2012-01-06T18:05:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Majuba wrote:</div><blockquote> I •don't• really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone they were underpowered. </blockquote><p>Again, because they meet your expectations.Majuba wrote:I *don't* really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone they were underpowered.
Again, because they meet your expectations.TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)2012-01-06T18:05:07ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate (alias of Jiggy, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1742012-01-06T18:02:20Z2012-01-06T18:02:20Z<p>Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/</p>Well, now my player's up and decided to build an Archaeologist. Thanks a lot, guys. :/J.J., Agent of the Decemvirate (alias of Jiggy, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32)2012-01-06T18:02:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Sir Ophiuchushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1732012-01-06T17:37:28Z2012-01-06T17:37:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Starbuck_II wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
I think you cheated on Technomage, Master Craftsmen applies to one feat. You took Wonderous and Craft magic weapon/armor.</p>
<p>You can't have both as a non-caster.
<br />
Explain how you qualify. </blockquote><p>That's not how Master Craftsman works. It reads "Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
<p>So if he has Master Craftsman and has the appropriate skill ranks, he can take both Craft Wondrous and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.</p>Starbuck_II wrote:I think you cheated on Technomage, Master Craftsmen applies to one feat. You took Wonderous and Craft magic weapon/armor.You can't have both as a non-caster.
Explain how you qualify.
That's not how Master Craftsman works. It reads "Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for...Sir Ophiuchus2012-01-06T17:37:28ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?voska66https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1722012-01-06T16:52:32Z2012-01-06T16:52:32Z<p>I wouldn't call the rogue underpowered. The class works well up to about level 12. So if all you play is PFS you won't see the problems. Those problems start appearing around level 9 and get worse as you go up in level.</p>
<p>In my games I see rogues begin getting frustrated with missing a lot around 13th and up. Sure they missed before that too but they start missing a lot. I also see the rogues start taking a beating using up more resources in fight than they should. For example typical combat should eat 20% of their HP but I see 80% being eaten up. Then there are skills, the rogue is auto succeeding in most skill checks. Finding traps becomes a bore as does using disable device to disarm or open locks. None of this was an issue before level 12 though. Another issue I notice is saves, rogues start failing save big time by the higher levels. Going with APs I find at about this level the save tend to be more heavily on Wil and Fort where the lower levels seem to target reflex. The rogue doesn't have enough feats to fill the gaps here as they generally go TWF and that's feat heavy chain.</p>
<p>There are ways to mitigate this to a degree with the right magic items and this is where UMD comes in handy but it tends to make the rogue much more magic item dependent than any other class. Also going with really high stats helps fix the problem. At 25 pt buy really helps, 30 pt even better.</p>
<p>I think if there was way to make the rogue hit more reliably at higher levels would help.</p>I wouldn't call the rogue underpowered. The class works well up to about level 12. So if all you play is PFS you won't see the problems. Those problems start appearing around level 9 and get worse as you go up in level.
In my games I see rogues begin getting frustrated with missing a lot around 13th and up. Sure they missed before that too but they start missing a lot. I also see the rogues start taking a beating using up more resources in fight than they should. For example typical combat...voska662012-01-06T16:52:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Starbuck_IIhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1712012-01-06T16:26:59Z2012-01-06T16:26:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">AdamMeyers wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>feats; improved familiar, master craftsman, craft magic weapons and armor, craft wondrous items, blind-fight, combat expertise, improved feint, moonlight stalker (all three feats)
<br />
</blockquote><p>I think you cheated on Technomage, Master Craftsmen applies to one feat. You took Wonderous and Craft magic weapon/armor.
<p>You can't have both as a non-caster.
<br />
Explain how you qualify.</p>AdamMeyers wrote:feats; improved familiar, master craftsman, craft magic weapons and armor, craft wondrous items, blind-fight, combat expertise, improved feint, moonlight stalker (all three feats)
I think you cheated on Technomage, Master Craftsmen applies to one feat. You took Wonderous and Craft magic weapon/armor. You can't have both as a non-caster.
Explain how you qualify.Starbuck_II2012-01-06T16:26:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Muserhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1702012-01-06T15:16:52Z2012-01-06T15:16:52Z<p>I hope they give the rogue full bab when flanking/sneak attacking, that would fix my problems of hitting people with the main shtick of the class without scrounging for attack boni from every nook and cranny. I mean, sure you can get your attack stat and other things high enough that against regular mooks it's likely to succeed, but melee bosses and speciality creatures like grapplers and ability damagers will still be a pain since AC, CMD and saves do require almost equal investment.</p>
<p>For instance, I was going to play as rogue through RotRL, but the stars were not right. Reading through the campaign a year or two later after we were done with it(after my rogue died to the first module's boss, I played a cleric who summoned, buffed and blasted), I was glad that didn't have to play the campaign with that class. Just about every melee boss was also some kind of caster and most of the challenges asked for heavy duty smacking and magical might instead of wits and swashbucklery(unless you count the DC 40 Knowledge:History and Religion checks, which were totally in the bard's jurisdiction). Monsters were big and hit hard and will saves were everywhere, while there was very little infiltration to do and even less city survival and diplomatic skullduggery. This might look like a campaign problem isntead of a class problem, but read on and I explain.</p>
<p>Same thing with the Serpent's Skull AP we are playing nowadays, bosses are all special cases, who use tons of buffs, start from favorable positions and can take a beating. I don't mean that GMs should softball opponents for the rogue to shine, but that there isn't really much for the rogue to do if he can't tackle melee. Alright, he might opt for UMD and wands or try Aid Another, but any a class can do that AND some other unique thing in order to contribute. An alchemist could lob bombs(thank the divines I didn't choose a Vivisectionist), an inquisitor might contribute by buffing the melee capable people, a bard could do the same or even hazard a trip or two with a whip, a monk might be in similarly dire straits when not capable of meleeing, but at least he has a chance with combat maneuvers, etc. I want to be able to contribute with the class, dammit. Give the rogue some kind of encounter-changing trick or ability he can use, please. Inherent skill tricks, Antagonize pre-built into the class, flank-based debuffing that doesn't require large stat investments, something! </p>
<p>That said, disabling traps has been darn useful and it's all thanks to trapfinding from the rogue dip. :P Maybe combats should involve traps too!</p>I hope they give the rogue full bab when flanking/sneak attacking, that would fix my problems of hitting people with the main shtick of the class without scrounging for attack boni from every nook and cranny. I mean, sure you can get your attack stat and other things high enough that against regular mooks it's likely to succeed, but melee bosses and speciality creatures like grapplers and ability damagers will still be a pain since AC, CMD and saves do require almost equal investment.
For...Muser2012-01-06T15:16:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Metal Sonichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1692012-01-06T14:27:55Z2012-01-06T14:27:55Z<p>@Majuba</p>
<p>And they lost some precious Feats, like Telling Blow. Also, almost all the other Classes gained more that the Rogue.</p>@Majuba
And they lost some precious Feats, like Telling Blow. Also, almost all the other Classes gained more that the Rogue.Metal Sonic2012-01-06T14:27:55ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Twigshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1682012-01-06T14:04:10Z2012-01-06T14:04:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Majuba wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">TOZ wrote:</div><blockquote> It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations. </blockquote><p>This has always been so bizarre to me. I truly feel the Rogue class is probably the strongest class in the game, that gained the most in the 3.5 -> PF transition (6 more rogue talents, which can equal feats or better; the changes to and consolidation of the skill system; the massive change to sneak attack; hit-die bump; etc.)
<p>I •don't• really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone they were underpowered. </blockquote><p>Yes, that's my first thought too. :/Majuba wrote:TOZ wrote: It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations.
This has always been so bizarre to me. I truly feel the Rogue class is probably the strongest class in the game, that gained the most in the 3.5 -> PF transition (6 more rogue talents, which can equal feats or better; the changes to and consolidation of the skill system; the massive change to sneak attack; hit-die bump; etc.) I *don't* really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone...Twigs2012-01-06T14:04:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Majubahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1672012-01-06T13:16:46Z2012-01-06T13:16:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TOZ wrote:</div><blockquote> It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations. </blockquote><p>This has always been so bizarre to me. I truly feel the Rogue class is probably the strongest class in the game, that gained the most in the 3.5 -> PF transition (6 more rogue talents, which can equal feats or better; the changes to and consolidation of the skill system; the massive change to sneak attack; hit-die bump; etc.)
<p>I •don't• really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone they were underpowered.</p>TOZ wrote:It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations.
This has always been so bizarre to me. I truly feel the Rogue class is probably the strongest class in the game, that gained the most in the 3.5 -> PF transition (6 more rogue talents, which can equal feats or better; the changes to and consolidation of the skill system; the massive change to sneak attack; hit-die bump; etc.) I *don't* really love rogues, but I'd never tell someone they were...Majuba2012-01-06T13:16:46ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Twigshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1662012-01-06T13:05:22Z2012-01-06T13:05:22Z<p>Personally I dont think the rogue holds up too badly. I won't bicker about the rogues powerlevel, I dont really want to beat a dead horse. It certainly doesnt hold up so well on its own in straight up fights, where its opponents certainly come out on top for numbers. Nor is it really a class that can benefit from clever builds, so it definately doesnt excite that side of anyone.</p>
<p>Why, I'm itching to play a rogue (preferably without too many of those pesky teammates to slow me down) not for a powerful character or a clever build, but for some clever play.</p>
<p>What I see the Rogue as is the class that makes the most out of terrain, or at least can have the most fun with it. Slanted rooftops (forcing balance checks), crowds, a sniping position and the constant use of ambushes (especially against low level mooks), there are a number of ways to assure these sneak attacks over the (probably superior) flanking, and in ways that leave you well out of the line of fire and possibly several rounds to work with.</p>
<p>However, this kind of play takes a considerable amount of time, requires a good deal of GM cooperation and environment design that caters to swashbuckling, and even then, this doesnt have its place in every adventure. Worse yet, this kind of play does not work with a team.</p>
<p>Also the rogue is cool. While I'm all for equal opportunity employment I say let rangers be rangers and bards be bards. Even with a sub-optimal class choice, <i>if you can't pull your weight in the party and are as useless as people are claiming, you probably have deeper, more easily fixed problems than ninja-trick envy.</i> There's no doubt Paizo hasnt given the rogue a lot of love, lately, but it's still a damn sight better than it's 3.5 combination, and there are plenty of options old and new to make an exciting, versatile, and even powerful character. I dont think the class is in as dire need of a revamp as people think.</p>Personally I dont think the rogue holds up too badly. I won't bicker about the rogues powerlevel, I dont really want to beat a dead horse. It certainly doesnt hold up so well on its own in straight up fights, where its opponents certainly come out on top for numbers. Nor is it really a class that can benefit from clever builds, so it definately doesnt excite that side of anyone.
Why, I'm itching to play a rogue (preferably without too many of those pesky teammates to slow me down) not for a...Twigs2012-01-06T13:05:22ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?AdamMeyershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1652012-01-06T05:00:45Z2012-01-06T05:00:45Z<p>I just thought of some fun class-rogue combos:</p>
<p>barbarian with beast totem + scout rogue at least 4 = barbarian with pounce who makes sneak attacks with every attack during a charge.</p>
<p>Rogue or ninja w/ smoke bomb, moonlight stalker feat tree, greater feint, and 3 archer fighter levels= can feint from distance as a swift action, get full archer attacks w/ sneak attack on each arrow.</p>
<p>Just thought those were cool.</p>I just thought of some fun class-rogue combos:
barbarian with beast totem + scout rogue at least 4 = barbarian with pounce who makes sneak attacks with every attack during a charge.
Rogue or ninja w/ smoke bomb, moonlight stalker feat tree, greater feint, and 3 archer fighter levels= can feint from distance as a swift action, get full archer attacks w/ sneak attack on each arrow.
Just thought those were cool.AdamMeyers2012-01-06T05:00:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?KrispyXIVhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1642012-01-05T21:10:13Z2012-01-05T21:10:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Purple Dragon Knight wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">KrispyXIV wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">TOZ wrote:</div><blockquote> It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations. </blockquote>Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). </blockquote>ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricks </blockquote><p>You'll note I said Advanced Tricks.Purple Dragon Knight wrote:KrispyXIV wrote: TOZ wrote: It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations.
Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricks You'll note I...KrispyXIV2012-01-05T21:10:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1632014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-01-05T21:05:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Purple Dragon Knight wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">KrispyXIV wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">TOZ wrote:</div><blockquote> It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations. </blockquote>Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). </blockquote>ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricks </blockquote><p>Very true, the rogue can't get as good of use of the ninja tricks however since his Ki pool is much (MUCH) smaller and the fact that he has to take a talent simply to get the ki pool hurts him a little too (a problem the ninja doesn't have in reverse). However there are some nice tricks that don't require a ki pool that could be very worthwhile for the rogue.Purple Dragon Knight wrote:KrispyXIV wrote: TOZ wrote: It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations.
Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricks Very true, the...spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-01-05T21:05:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1622014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-01-05T21:02:04Z<p>Human Seeker Sorcerer Crossblooded Sage/Umbral Bloodline.</p>
<p>Trapfinding, hide in shadows, int based caster, extra spells from being human helps with the lack of spells from being crossblooded, and you can pick up Iron will to help with the -2 to will saves if you want.</p>Human Seeker Sorcerer Crossblooded Sage/Umbral Bloodline.
Trapfinding, hide in shadows, int based caster, extra spells from being human helps with the lack of spells from being crossblooded, and you can pick up Iron will to help with the -2 to will saves if you want.spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-01-05T21:02:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?Purple Dragon Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1612012-01-05T20:55:47Z2012-01-05T20:55:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">KrispyXIV wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">TOZ wrote:</div><blockquote> It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations. </blockquote>Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). </blockquote><p>ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricksKrispyXIV wrote:TOZ wrote: It's not hate. It's disappointment that the class does not live up to expectations.
Compounded, too, I think by the general acceptance of Ninja being actually fairly competitive by comparison, and actually being strait better than the rogue due to the Ninja getting access to almost everything a Rogue has, WITHOUT the reverse being true (no Advanced Ninja Trick rogue talent). ultimate combat lets a rogue take ninja tricksPurple Dragon Knight2012-01-05T20:55:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?AdamMeyershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1602012-01-05T20:46:05Z2012-01-05T20:46:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Ah. Well, it appears we are arguing past each other again. My point is really that these builds are problematic, and the same general idea would work better with a different class. If we agree on that in principle, I'll lay off. </blockquote><p>Um, yeah, that's what I said in my previous posts, like I admitted the technomage isn't doing anything better than anyone else, if you read what I said. That's why I didn't understand why you were arguing with me.
<p>I just feel like the complaints on how to overcome the rogue apply to all classes, and the situational ways to beat these builds apply to all classes as well, either the same ways or each one having their own individual "well this could bet him". A lot of the ways people are pointing out to beat my builds would work just as well against a fighter or ranger and are over-stating the weaknesses of the rogue.</p>
<p>But it doesn't matter, that's what we're all saying: The rogue is weak, I just don't think he's as worthless as some assume.</p>Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:Ah. Well, it appears we are arguing past each other again. My point is really that these builds are problematic, and the same general idea would work better with a different class. If we agree on that in principle, I'll lay off.
Um, yeah, that's what I said in my previous posts, like I admitted the technomage isn't doing anything better than anyone else, if you read what I said. That's why I didn't understand why you were arguing with me. I just feel like the...AdamMeyers2012-01-05T20:46:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?KrispyXIVhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1592012-01-05T20:24:13Z2012-01-05T20:24:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">AdamMeyers wrote:</div><blockquote> Ok, see I wasn't arguing they were weakness-less people. I'd like you to build me a member of any class who is: I could reverse gravity on a fighter and drop him into a pit with no save or SR if he's unstealthy enough for me to see, I could area of effect blast him because he doesn't have evasion, etc. But these builds address many of the problems their role would face and do it well. </blockquote><p>As a note, your examples here dont mean anything; the fighter is no more vulnerable to the listed effects than a rogue is. Fighter's can take stealth, Rings of Evasion, Slippers of Spider Climbing/items with Fly, as can rogues. However, the fighter also has extra feats to buff his saves, better armor proficiencies, etc...AdamMeyers wrote:Ok, see I wasn't arguing they were weakness-less people. I'd like you to build me a member of any class who is: I could reverse gravity on a fighter and drop him into a pit with no save or SR if he's unstealthy enough for me to see, I could area of effect blast him because he doesn't have evasion, etc. But these builds address many of the problems their role would face and do it well.
As a note, your examples here dont mean anything; the fighter is no more vulnerable to the...KrispyXIV2012-01-05T20:24:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why so much Rogue Hate?wraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndpf&page=4?Why-so-much-Rogue-Hate#1582012-01-05T20:23:42Z2012-01-05T20:23:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">AdamMeyers wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ok, see I wasn't arguing they were weakness-less people. I'd like you to build me a member of any class who is: I could reverse gravity on a fighter and drop him into a pit with no save or SR if he's unstealthy enough for me to see, I could area of effect blast him because he doesn't have evasion, etc. But these builds address many of the problems their role would face and do it well.</p>
<p>Yes the last one is an inferior copy of a wizard. That's why I'd like to play him sometime and see how he does. Actually, the last guy is three builds in one: the trap finder and creator, the item enchanter and the UMD rogue. I just combined the three into one to see how it looked.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Here is the issue. We don't think they do it well. Especially the tank build. I don't see it being able to stand up front and take the punishment, along with handling Fort based saves well.
<p>On your other post:
<br />
If you are moving and stealthing you still have the glitterdust penalty so you will be seen.
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">prd wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Any creature covered by the dust takes
</p>
a –40 penalty on Stealth checks.</blockquote><p>The bonus from the favored terrain is not that good. You can run, but this is one situation where you definitely can't hide.
<p>edit:You are telling me he has the fighter's AC, but I don't see any numbers. If you post a 30 AC as an example, and someone's fighter shows up with a 35 then that will prove you to be incorrect.</p>AdamMeyers wrote:Ok, see I wasn't arguing they were weakness-less people. I'd like you to build me a member of any class who is: I could reverse gravity on a fighter and drop him into a pit with no save or SR if he's unstealthy enough for me to see, I could area of effect blast him because he doesn't have evasion, etc. But these builds address many of the problems their role would face and do it well.
Yes the last one is an inferior copy of a wizard. That's why I'd like to play him sometime...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2012-01-05T20:23:42Z