TOZ wrote: 'There's nothing to eat' is not the truth if there is food in the house.
'There is nothing I want to eat' would be true.
"There are no options' is not the truth. The truth is that there are no options allowed.
You mean, "I don't want the options available".
Same concept from the opposite party. (the player)
DM: I do not want/allow those options.
Player: There are no options allowed.
The options still exist, but are not allowed. (You may note that I said exactly what you did, as in, we are in agreement.)
TOZ wrote: Same concept from the opposite party. (the player)
DM: I do not want/allow those options.
Player: There are no options allowed.
The options still exist, but are not allowed. (You may note that I said exactly what you did, as in, we are in agreement.)
I was pointing out the fact that, in gbonehead's case, he's the one doing the rejecting.
First off, I wasn't saying it would be cool if Paizo slapped the Pathfinder label on Dreamscarred's book, and then Lisa called up Jeremy Smith to do her best evil laugh at him. I was saying it would be cool if Paizo entered into an agreement with Dreamscarred (as stated in the original post), and published the book as an official Pathfinder book. And yes, I realize that the chances of that happening are virtually nil. Like I said, Paizo could do worse than to do that. And if they ever do get around to doing psionics, they probably WILL do worse than that.
On the concept of people getting uptight about Paizo publishing something with a few changes and claiming it as their own product... er... that's kind of the genesis of the entire Pathfinder RPG.
I really don't want this to turn into a big debate, but
1.) If they ever create a Psionics ruleset, I want them to call it Mysticism or something else that is more strongly fantasy flavored
2.) If they ever create a Psionics ruleset, I want them to get rid of the power points thing. Power points are just entirely a bad game mechanic which promotes nova-ing. I'd much rather they build the system around activation rolls with side effects/fumbles - a character who knows a psionic power can activate it as often as he wants all day long but risks side effects/fumbles when he does so.
gbonehead wrote: There are a lot of people out there (myself included) who will onlyu use official material with rare exceptions (for me there's two: Tome of Horrors and Advanced Bestiary).
For those people there is currently no option for psionics.
As stated by others, there is an option. You add Psionics Unleased to the list of rare exceptions.
Even if Pazio eventually puts out a psionics book, I really doubt it will be as good as Dreamscarred's book. Because Dreamscarred is a company that loves psionics, and has been putting out the best psionics stuff for 3.X/d20 for years. And the people at Paizo have flat-out admitted that nobody in the company really cares much for psionics.
Darkwing Duck wrote: Power points are just entirely a bad game mechanic which promotes nova-ing. Except it doesn't. Two words: Manifestor Level.
Assuming Dreamscarred kept with the old 3.5 rules, (I have the PDF, waiting for my hard copy because reading digital text for extended time periods messes with my eyes) Manifestor Level keeps you from spending more Power Points than your ML, which scales like a Caster Level.
9th Level Psion = Manifestor Level 9 = Limit of 9 total points spent on any power, including amplifications on top of the original casting cost.
With a 18 in your casting stat that's about 90 PP for 10 castings a day max, hardly 'nova' style when you factor in using lesser powers for utility and the fact that not every power is going to have an augmentation that aligns perfectly with its base cost to equal 9 every single time.
You can't just go "Okay, I blow 90 PP and kill everything in the room this one fight." 'That' would be nova-ing.
Edit: Just checked, they did include the Manifester Level rule. Ergo nova does not exist in the Psioncs PP system.
Sakuri wrote: Limit of 9 total points spent on any power, including amplifications on top of the original casting cost.
..
You can't just go "Okay, I blow 90 PP and kill everything in the room this one fight." 'That' would be nova-ing.
An 18th level character casting a 9th level spell over and over and over again throughout the combat until you've killed everything that moves is nova-ing.
Darkwing Duck wrote: Sakuri wrote: Limit of 9 total points spent on any power, including amplifications on top of the original casting cost.
..
You can't just go "Okay, I blow 90 PP and kill everything in the room this one fight." 'That' would be nova-ing.
An 18th level character casting a 9th level spell over and over and over again throughout the combat until you've killed everything that moves is nova-ing. So basically...what's your point? A Psion can cast it's more powerful powers each round at 18th level, dealing a singular source of attack per round.
Where your Sorcerer/Wizard can Gate in an outsider of equal CR to match whatever BBEG the DM has on the table, Summon Monster IX 5 dinosaurs to deal with the minions, which independently deal their own damage sources while the traditional spell caster can toss out his own direct damage spells or battle field control.
And you're complaining that the Psion can project a single damage source per round...why?
Edit: Additionally aside from a single power in a single discipline the Psion has no 9th level powers that deal damage. It has none at 8 that are sources of direct damage either. The only thing Psions can universally do for direct damage in repeated rounds is a set of 7th level Powers. So there is no 9th level spell spam.
Sakuri wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Sakuri wrote: Limit of 9 total points spent on any power, including amplifications on top of the original casting cost.
..
You can't just go "Okay, I blow 90 PP and kill everything in the room this one fight." 'That' would be nova-ing.
An 18th level character casting a 9th level spell over and over and over again throughout the combat until you've killed everything that moves is nova-ing. So basically...what's your point? A Psion can cast it's power powerful powers each round at 18th level, dealing a singular source of attack per round.
Where your Sorcerer/Wizard can Gate in an outsider of equal CR to match whatever BBEG the DM has on the table, Summon Monster IX 5 dinosaurs to deal with the minions, which independently deal their own damage sources while the traditional spell caster can toss out his own direct damage spells or battle field control.
And you're complaining that the Psion can project a single damage source per round...why? You're comparing the Psion's ability to be completely invulnerable to everything (which one of his 9th level powers grants him) to a Sorcerer/Wizard's ability to cast Gate (which is almost always risky and expensive to the Sorcerer/Wizard)?
And, like I said, I really don't want this to turn into a big debate. If you feel the need to have yet another debate on the merits of psionics, please create a different thread.
Darkwing Duck wrote: Sakuri wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Sakuri wrote: Limit of 9 total points spent on any power, including amplifications on top of the original casting cost.
..
You can't just go "Okay, I blow 90 PP and kill everything in the room this one fight." 'That' would be nova-ing.
An 18th level character casting a 9th level spell over and over and over again throughout the combat until you've killed everything that moves is nova-ing. So basically...what's your point? A Psion can cast it's power powerful powers each round at 18th level, dealing a singular source of attack per round.
Where your Sorcerer/Wizard can Gate in an outsider of equal CR to match whatever BBEG the DM has on the table, Summon Monster IX 5 dinosaurs to deal with the minions, which independently deal their own damage sources while the traditional spell caster can toss out his own direct damage spells or battle field control.
And you're complaining that the Psion can project a single damage source per round...why? You're comparing the Psion's ability to be completely invulnerable to everything (which one of his 9th level powers grants him) to a Sorcerer/Wizard's ability to cast Gate (which is almost always risky and expensive to the Sorcerer/Wizard)?
No, what I'm getting at is PP systems do not allow for 'nova' moments. Nova is when you have the ability to blow every single power you have for one massive attack (or round there of). Psions are not built to do this. The PP system is not built to do this.
Traditional spell casting, especially my aforementioned example, is more designed to create nova scenarios. Your core complaints is that somehow putting a numerical value on Powers is some how more 'nova' then an individual spell slot system.
So for the sake of arguement let's just say, 20th level, 26-28 in the casting stat.
For a Psion: That's 423 PP. If he wants to blow every single power he has in a single combat that's 20 uses. 21 technically since he can burn the last 3 on something small. A Psion can only manifest one source of damage at a time.
For a Sorcerer/Wizard: Factoring out the Level 0's, that's 54 individual spells; before bonus spells for the Sorceror. 36 for the Wizard. A Sorceror/Wizard can manifest multiple sources of damage at a time through Gating and Summon Monster spells.
The fact that a Sorceror/Wizard cannot use every single spell slot for a 9th level ability is moot. 9th level spells aren't always the answer to everything. (Although if you wanted to open that can of worms the S/W's 9th levels are far more powerful than anything Psionics has to offer, justifying the Psion's easier recastings while the Sorcerer could do it at 6/day with that stat value).
It's quite simply undenyable that the traditional casters can burn more spells, for longer, while generating more sources of damage per round. That is the definition of nova. As such, if you still think PP is a bad system for the 'nova' factor then you also think the present magic system for Pathfinder is bad for being 'nova'.
Thalis Greatlight wrote: Yes, but that doesn't help someone like me. Someone that doesn't want to purchase one AP, for example, to grab at 1 new grit feat.
So are you, along with everyone else here, saying I have no choice but to rely on 3PP for new material? This hurts those only investing in Pathfinder products. So, as a gunslinger player, I can't look forward to any new gunslinger magic items, grit feats, or the like for a very long time from you folks?
Not liking what I am hearing :(
For someone like you, who only wants that *One* Feat, you want to look at the PRD, the PFSRD, or Archives of Nethys, and print out that *One* Feat that you want to use.
If thats the only part of the book you want, you have other options. Spend your money on other stuff instead. I dunno if you GM, but maybe you'd like some of the gaming aids.
Pathfinder Minis, Terrainlinx, Item Cards, etc.
They mentioned there is an equipment book coming, I won't be surprised if it has some of the gunslinger items you want.
Personally I'm not worried about 'slinger stuff; I don't allow it when I'm GMing, and neither do most of the other GMs I've gamed with. Reasons vary - but for me it's that I dont like the implementation. Don't get me wrong, I like guns, but the gun rules, and the 'slinger rules, have rubbed me the wrong way since the playtest, so I still use firearm rules based on Mongoose OGL Steampunk, like I've been doing since 2006.
gbonehead wrote: There are a lot of people out there (myself included) who will only use official material with rare exceptions (for me there's two: Tome of Horrors and Advanced Bestiary).
For those people there is currently no option for psionics.
Personally I don't have very strong feelings about psionics either way; but if you want them and Paizo hasnt put anything out, I don't know why you don't just look at dreamscarred. You're really only SOL if you want them in PFS.
Darkwing Duck wrote: If they ever create a Psionics ruleset, I want them to get rid of the power points thing. ... I'd much rather they build the system around activation rolls with side effects/fumbles - a character who knows a psionic power can activate it as often as he wants all day long but risks side effects/fumbles when he does so. I'm not a big fan of Power Points -OR- Spells/Day; both have their problems. Its alot harder to nova with spells/day, because you can't trade in low level spells for higher ones. But then you get stuck with spell slots with DCs/Effects so low theyre a waste of space. The side effects idea isnt terrible. But I don't like the idea of allowing power points AND spells/day in the same game.
That may be your definition of 'nova' Sakuri, but the common use of the term in gaming circles is to burn all your best spells in one encounter. Why DW thinks a Psion is worse about that that a regular caster, I can't say.
Fair enough. XD I hate some of that old 3.5 anger boil up from the old Psionics/Traditionalists arguments that used to go on at WOTC all the time. >//>; It's burnt out now.
TOZ wrote: That may be your definition of 'nova' Sakuri, but the common use of the term in gaming circles is to burn all your best spells in one encounter. Why DW thinks a Psion is worse about that that a regular caster, I can't say. Because how many times can, for example, an 18th level Sorcerer cast his highest level spells in one encounter? Its a lot less than how many times an 18th level Psion can do the same.
The fact that Sakuri is using idiosyncratic definitions for common terms doesn't change that fact.
Sakuri mentioned damage dice. Lets compare a 14th level Sorcerer to a 14th level Psion. We'll give both a 25 in their prime stat.
The Psion casts Ultrablast. That's 13PP per shot. He can bump up the damage from there using extra PP (1PP/1d6 damage). This is a Will save for half (the weakest save for those classes that have the most hit points - fighters, barbarians, etc.) The 14th level Psion has 170PP, not including any points he has stored in an item. So, he can do Ultrablast every round for 12 rounds at 14d6 per round. That's 588 points of damage.
The Sorcerer can cast Delayed Blast Fireball 5 times and doesn't have the ability to store PP in devices. 245 points of damage.
In addition, the Sorcerer has a limited number of spells known. The Psion has the ability to cast spells he doesn't know by joining his mind with someone who does know that spell.
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Because how many times can, for example, an 18th level Sorcerer cast his highest level spells in one encounter? Its a lot less than how many times an 18th level Psion can do the same.
Why is that better? It doesn't mean he can't nova, it just means he runs out faster.
TOZ wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Because how many times can, for example, an 18th level Sorcerer cast his highest level spells in one encounter? Its a lot less than how many times an 18th level Psion can do the same.
Why is that better? It doesn't mean he can't nova, it just means he runs out faster. Anyone can nova. A scullery maid can nova (she threw her kitchen knife on round 1, that was her nova). But, some rules make nova-ing even more effective (more damage in less time). Power points are one of those rules. The example in my last post shows how they make nova-ing more effective.
So you prefer the total damage cap to be lower for classes?
TOZ wrote: So you prefer the total damage cap to be lower for classes? I prefer the total damage/effect of classes in any given battle to be more equal across classes.
One thing I hate is for any player to feel like a wall flower during any part of the adventure because his character can't keep up with everyone else.
Well, the Psion isn't really doing more in any given battle, just maybe doing it in a few more battles a day.
TOZ wrote: Well, the Psion isn't really doing more in any given battle, just maybe doing it in a few more battles a day. Most parties use a 15 minute adventuring day. If the party doesn't use a 15 minute adventuring day, it hurts the spell casters more than it does the Psion.
And another difference, the Wizard must sleep to regain his spells. The Psion just needs some time of peace. In other words, while the Wizard can't stand guard while regaining his spells, the Psion can.
I think DW makes a point, TOZ.
The Psion can burn 9th level powers over and over in one encounter, whereas the caster needs to start using crappier and crappier spells as he runs out of higher level spellslots.
Maybe that doesn't quite fit the definition of Nova-ing, but it's pretty close, and it's still not very fair.
I'm not saying either system is preferrable, but I am saying I dont think its fair to allow both in the same game, it kindof screws the vancian guys in comparison. If youre going to use PP, use them for all the casters. If youre going to use spell slots, apply them to psions too. Thats my 2cp.
I see his point, I just don't think it's a concern. A player who wants to nova, will, regardless of the mechanics presented to him.
Sakuri wrote: To be bluntly honest; to me any supplement book that does not at least include one new class (I give exceptions to Beastiaries and will give a free pass to the upcoming Race book since that will have a myriad of player races to make up for it) is completely worthless, both as a GM and a player.
Considering how long it takes between books adding in new classes, even if only at the rate of one per book goes a long way towards keeping the game fresh. You can throw as many 'variants' as you want but at the end of the day a Fighter is a Fighter, a Monk is a Monk. Sometimes you want to play something different.
Yes, there are always the class-brimming 3.5 books. Yes, there is always homebrew. Yes, there is always 3rd party material. But for every "Yes, there is a -----" there is always a "No, I do not allow non-official material GM". People underestimate the sheer number of GMs that actually prefer to never even consider 3rd party material, homebrew is even considered a dirtier word in my experience. Not so sure what the general sentiment is on the backwards compatibility aspect of the game though as that's rather unique to PF-3.5 in my area.
So again, even if it's just one 'official' class per book; it goes a long way towards helping convince me to shell out the money to buy it.
If you can't build just about any possible archetype or concept with what's available now, I don't know what to say. The game isn't supposed to do your imagining for you, it's supposed to give you the tools to do so yourself.
TOZ wrote: A player who wants to nova, will, regardless of the mechanics presented to him. That's right. But the effectiveness of that nova is important. With PP, the nova is more effective.
DΗ wrote: I think DW makes a point, TOZ.
The Psion can burn 9th level powers over and over in one encounter, whereas the caster needs to start using crappier and crappier spells as he runs out of higher level spellslots.
Maybe that doesn't quite fit the definition of Nova-ing, but it's pretty close, and it's still not very fair.
I'm not saying either system is preferrable, but I am saying I dont think its fair to allow both in the same game, it kindof screws the vancian guys in comparison. If youre going to use PP, use them for all the casters. If youre going to use spell slots, apply them to psions too. Thats my 2cp.
Which brings up one of my issues with psionics - that the most distinctive thing about the class is PP.
I don't think the most distinctive thing about a class should be its mechanics.
Darkwing Duck wrote: That's right. But the effectiveness of that nova is important. With PP, the nova is more effective. If your players dont have the opportunity to choose when they rest, and have to spend half a session with no spells because they nova'ed - possibly resulting in PC Death, you can curb that nasty behavior, with their own disappointment in themselves, or the peer pressure of the rest of their party.
I dont like to coddle the players.
DΗ wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: That's right. But the effectiveness of that nova is important. With PP, the nova is more effective. If your players dont have the opportunity to choose when they rest, and have to spend half a session with no spells because they nova'ed - possibly resulting in PC Death, you can curb that nasty behavior, with their own disappointment in themselves, or the peer pressure of the rest of their party.
I dont like to coddle the players. Put a wizard and a psion in a party and take away the 15 minute work day and see who squeals first. I guarantee you it won't be the psion.
Oh, I dont disagree. But if you never have the 15 minute work day, both will squeal if theyre used to novaing. If the only one doing the novaing in your game is the Psion, then he'll be the one with the problems.
A wizard who is used to not novaing will manage just fine, as will the Psion who is used to not novaing. the Psion still lasts longer, but you wont have the problematic nova-fights.
I did say I would never allow both PP and Vancian in the same player party, if you recall, and said I would convert everyone over to one or the other, in the interest of consistency.
DΗ wrote: Oh, I dont disagree. But if you never have the 15 minute work day, both will squeal if theyre used to novaing. If the only one doing the novaing in your game is the Psion, then he'll be the one with the problems.
A wizard who is used to not novaing will manage just fine, as will the Psion who is used to not novaing. the Psion still lasts longer, but you wont have the problematic nova-fights.
I did say I would never allow both PP and Vancian in the same player party, if you recall, and said I would convert everyone over to one or the other, in the interest of consistency.
But even if neither of the two (spellcaster or psion) ever nova, the psion is still stronger.
Umm. Yeah. In fighting stamina, but not in a single encounter. But I mentioned that already.. Several times.
And I said that I wouldnt use PP and Vancian in the same party, and would make everyone use one or the other, to fix that problem.
DΗ wrote: I did say I would never allow both PP and Vancian in the same player party, if you recall, and said I would convert everyone over to one or the other, in the interest of consistency.
DΗ wrote: Umm. Yeah. In fighting stamina, but not in a single encounter. But I mentioned that already.. Several times.
And I said that I wouldnt use PP and Vancian in the same party, and would make everyone use one or the other, to fix that problem.
DΗ wrote: I did say I would never allow both PP and Vancian in the same player party, if you recall, and said I would convert everyone over to one or the other, in the interest of consistency.
Yes, you mentioned that already, but this discussion was going on before you mentioned it and my comments about comparing wizards and psions weren't directed to you.
However, if the psion is more powerful than the spell casters and the spell casters are, at least, equal to the non-spell casters, than the psion is not balanced.
Just got back from dinner and skimmed over the posts. I really don't think the Fireball vs Ultrablast arguement holds up too well.
If we're talking about pure numbers in a vacuum, then yes; Ultrablasting Psions far out nova Fireballers.
But that will never, never happen; ever. A delayed casting of 5 Fireballs is possible considering that at 14th level you can cast that from up to 960ft. away.
Ultrablast can only be centered on you and has a 15ft. radius. It's never getting cast more than twice unless your DM is running a dumb as bricks monster. Where as, in an ambush situation from the 900ft. range (which would be how you would handle most enemies powerful enough to require than kind of orbital nuking to deal with); it would be quite possible to get off all the castings, especially considering none of them are appearing until the final one has been put into place due to the delaying effect.
When arguing damage output you cannot just look at the sheer damage numbers; especially if said ability has no believable way to be cast multiple times without the target decimating the caster due to short range. (Not even getting into the fact that anything large enough to have reach and a higher movement speed then the Psion would pretty much never be hit by Ultrablast, where Fireballs have no such restriction. Also, Ultrablast is Mind-Affecting. Which makes it worthless against Undead, Constructs, some Plants, just to name a few.)
Agreed. It's like giving the wizard a bunch of free Spells/Day.
But because its in terms of how long they can keep fighting for, instead of how much power they can put out at once, I only think the discrepancy is a big deal when youre comparing it to characters who have x/day limits, as opposed to the characters who can use their abilities all day, as much as they want. That's all I was saying.
The disparity is less of a big deal against a fighter than a wizard.
But yes. The Psionic casters are "More" than they should be, because of their flexibility in what their points can be used on.
A 15th level wizard isn't likely to ever have a use for most of his 2nd level spells. Not really; so they dont add much, if anything to his power, since they're basically useless due to the weak effects and crappy Save DCs. A 15th level Psion can just spend them on better spells.
Alright, I've taken time to look at the powers list and here's my primary counter arguement. Using your rules of Level 14 and 25 in a stat and applying this is in a sheer numerical vacuum.
Spells: Fireball vs Energy Ball
Why?: Same range scaling, same area, same saves. Basically it's the same spell flavored differently. (The primary difference being Fireball scales with Caster level up to 10d6 while Energy Ball is a static 7d6 which requires augmentation to improve and a small damage bonus if you make it Cold or Fire).
Sorcerer: 14th level gives it access to 7th level spells. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, dealing 10d6 normally at that level. Maximize Spell makes use 6th level slots. Which at that stat number means the Sorcerer can cast it 6 times a day. So that's 60 x 6 for 360 damage.
However this does not invalidate his Level 3 slots, which can then be used for 8 normal Fireballs for 10d6, which must be rolled randomly. Making that a total of (10 x 3 average) x 8 for 240 damage.
Leading to a total of 600.
But now that leaves the Sorcerer with his 5th level slots, also not invalidated by the previous level 6 and 3 spams. He can use Empower Spell on the Fireball to make it Level 5. With that state bonus he has 7 of these. Making this spell 15d6. So (15 x 3) x 7 for a total of 315 damage. Bringing the total up to 915.
Ah, but now there are still those 7 4th level Spell slots to use. Extend Spell, Fireball is now 4th level. (10 x 3) x 7 for 210 damage. Since there are no ways I know of to reduce a spell level the Sorcerer has now used every slot possible for a grand total of 1135 damage.
Psion: Energy Ball is a 4th level spell for a Psion, costing 7 PP. Psions do have a Maximize power but numerically it is inferior to Empower (math below), multiplying the dice by 1.5 times but increasing the PP by 2. This leaves only 5 PP left for augmenting. Leaving the base damage at 12d6 going up to 18d6 after Empowering. For pure damage you can either go Cold or Fire, making it 18d6 +1 per dice.
However unlike Maximize these dice must be rolled randomly. Making it, on average: (3 x 18) + 18 for 72 damage per casting. This can only be casted 15 times with the Psion's total PP at that level and stat. Now making it 72 x 15 for a total of 1080.
With 9 PP left they can cast one final Empowered Energy Ball, unaugmented for 10d6 (or 11d6, I forget which way rounding goes; let's say 11d6 for the sake of arguement). That's 11 x 3 for 33 damage. Making it a grand total of 1113 damage once the Psion has used every last drop of PP.
_____________________
Both Sorcerer and Psion have cast pretty much the exact same spell, each one using all of their available slots/PP for it.
Sorcerer Damage: 1135
Psion Damage: 1113
Looks like about the only difference between the two is the Psion is a lot less paper work as at the end of the day the damage outputs are too similar to split hairs over.
Edit: For comparison, a Maximized Energy Ball is 11 PP, leaving only 3 for augmentation. That makes it 10d6 (60) + 10 (per die) for a static 70 damage. 70 x 15 = 1050 + 33 from the final Empowered Energy Ball for 1083 damage. Less than just Empowering all of them and still not surpassing the Sorcerer's fireballs.
Sakuri wrote: Edit: Bah, somehow I missed the obvious. Psions do have a Maximize power. XP This is why I hate PDFs. Give me a moment to recalculate. XD
Alright, I've taken time to look at the powers list and here's my primary counter arguement. Using your rules of Level 14 and 25 in a stat.
Spells: Fireball vs Energy Ball
Why?: Same range scaling, same area, same saves. Basically it's the same spell flavored differently. (The primary difference being Fireball scales with Caster level up to 10d6 while Energy Ball is a static 7d6 which requires augmentation to improve and a small damage bonus if you make it Cold or Fire).
Sorcerer: 14th level gives it access to 7th level spells. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, dealing 10d6 normally at that level. Maximize Spell makes use 6th level slots. Which at that stat number means the Sorcerer can cast it 6 times a day. So that's 60 x 6 for 360 damage.
However this does not invalidate his Level 3 slots, which can then be used for 8 normal Fireballs for 10d6, which must be rolled randomly. Making that a total of (10 x 3 average) x 8 for 240 damage.
Leading to a total of 600.
But now that leaves the Sorcerer with his 5th level slots, also not invalidated by the previous level 6 and 3 spams. He can use Empower Spell on the Fireball to make it Level 5. With that state bonus he has 7 of these. Making this spell 15d6. So (15 x 3) x 7 for a total of 315 damage. Bringing the total up to 915.
Ah, but now there are still those 7 4th level Spell slots to use. Extend Spell, Fireball is now 4th level. (10 x 3) x 7 for 210 damage. Since there are no ways I know of to reduce a spell level the Sorcerer has now used every slot possible for a grand total of 1135 damage.
Psion: Energy Ball is a 4th level spell for a Psion, costing 7 PP. Psions do not have an equivalent to Maximize spell and must settle for Empower Power, multiplying the dice by 1.5 times but increasing the PP by 2. This leaves only 5 PP left for augmenting. Leaving the base damage at 12d6 going up to 18d6 after...
There's far too many errors in your comparison to address them all. Here are some
1.) Fireball and Energy Ball aren't comparable. Fireball is -fire-. Energy ball is any of a number of energy types decided when focus is gained. Energy ball can target energy types the target has no resistance against (forex. sonic) whereas fire resistance is common.
2.) Ultrablast is a will save and, while it does not have range, energy resistance (which is incredibly common at 14th level) never applies
3.) A 3rd level spell, even a maximized third level spell, has a poor DC at 14th level.
4.) You are stacking a mountain of feats onto the Sorcerer in order to try to make it competitive. Even when you require the Sorcerer to spend an additional feat over and above what the Psion spends to do your damage comparison, the Sorcerer -barely- exceeds what the Psion does (and this is while ignoring points 1 through 3 above and, also, ignoring the significantly greater time the Sorcerer needs to do that damage (see DH' post below for more))
Sakuri wrote: Spells: Fireball vs Energy Ball I have a few gripes with this: Fireball isn't a high level spell, it's a low level spell, and not particularly impressive as far as spells go. But since it seems you want a number crunch:
If you want to make that comparison, you have to take into account that the Sorcerer is casting more of the piddly versions of the spell. To get the damage you mentioned, its taking him 21 turns to do 1135, as opposed to the Psion's 15 turns to do 1113.
In the same amount of time, the Psion will do 1113, and he'll be out of PP. The Sorcerer will do in 15 actions: (6x60)+(45x7)+(45x2), Because you can put 5th level spells in a 6th level slot without augmenting them. That gives the Sorcerer a total of 765 Damage. He's got slots left over, true, but you need to consider whether he'll have the chance to use those piddly spells. That matters.
Comparing total output for the day against opponents who fail all their saves and let you cast all your spells you may be right, but those piddly fireballs will have crappy save DCs, and you'll be casting more of them with crappier saves. and youre more likely to only do half damage, or less.
Additionally, I'm guessing the Psion version has a selectable element? I believe thats a metamagic effect (energy substitution), and I'm not entirely sure it exists in PF. Being able to cast it with cold against your fire-resistant (or fire immune) enemies is without extra cost is very useful.
Though why a 14th level character is preparing fireball in his 7th level slots is beyond me.
If you want to compare higher level, more useful spells, the psion can last alot longer before he cant cast his high level spells. That was our point.
If I'm a level 14 sorcerer, I'm likely casting summons or something like wall of stone, not fireball. If I'm a Psion... Not a clue, its been a while since I read the specific Psion powers.
@DH: The elemental selection is not a Meta effect, it is written into how the power works based upon which element you selected for yourself at level 1 if you choose the Psychokinetic discipline.
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-If Energy Ball uses anything but Cold or Fire it loses the bonus damage dice. Additionally that flexibility is why it is a higher level than Fireball.
-Energy Resistance I would argue is just as common as 'Mindless' or things with Mind-Affecting defenses.
-The saves are not that different. Both Psionics and Magic uses 10+SL+Stat. Energy Ball only has a difference in the save DC of 3. 1 from a higher SL and 2 from augmentation.
-I highly doubt there are very many caster types who do not use Empower, Maximize, and Extend. This is not a mountain of feats; it is three. All three of which are 'staples' for the caster classes who focus on dealing damage.
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It's the same damage output. You're asking a Psion to burn all their PP; thus the Sorcerer must burn all available Spell Slots. To do it any other way is hypocrisy in the comparison.
Edit: I realize now that I only used slots 3rd-6th in my calculations; forgetting to do 7th level via Quicken. So the damage gap should be wider in favor of the Sorcerer. I put my books away for the night otherwise I'd re-tally it all up again.
Its not the same damage output though. By the time the 14th level sorcerer is stuck casting 3rd level spells, he's likely dead.
And a difference of 3 is fairly substantial, especially if youre spending a 7th level slow on a spell with the DC of a 3rd level spell.
Yeah, the sorcerer and Psion can both spam low level abilities. And the Sorcerer can spam a couple more of them, if he has the spare actions.
That is unrelated to the argument that the Sorcerer's 3rd level fireball, is stuck as a 3rd level fireball. He can't use his crappy spell slots to help him spam more Summon Monster VII, or some other, *Useful* 7th level spell.
I'm not all that interested in who can cast more 3rd level spells, or 1st level spells, when youre comparing 14th level characters. Who can cast more 7th level spells? or 7th and 6th? that matters alot more, because you're getting alot more out of each action.
Edit: Blasters aren't my Forte though. I tend to agree with Treantmonk; If I want a caster who deals damage at range I'll make a summoner. The damage doesnt impress me that much with blasters, and I find them kindof dull to play as; they're too straightforward.
Maybe when I have proper lighting I can drag my book out again, but going off memory this is where I would apply the following argument:
In this case it is balanced if the Psion can cast far more often at higher levels than the Traditional Casters; because high level Psionic powers are no where near as powerful as high level magic.
At highest level I can easily point to things like Gate and Wish as the big offenders. 6th to 7th level, no idea. I don't have a Core Rulebook PDF so I can't pull it open to study.
I'm too tired to lug my book back out too. But Maybe youre right about the upper level spells being alot weaker. I dont have the dreamscarred book at all, I'm going from my memories of the 3.x one (which I'm also not going to take off the shelf tonight), so I dont know what their spells are like. I was basically thinking 7th level slot = 7th level slot.
We weren't arguing that the psion can spam more low level spells that are empowered, but moreso the actual high level spells, which we consider to be problematic.
Well I have the PDF open in front of me and have been flipping through the spell list for a while. I wouldn't say there are many game breakers but there are a few that make me raise an eyebrow without anything to compare it to.
Energy Wave: 7th level (13 PP per cast), 13d6 (+1 per die if Fire or Cold) in a 120ft. cone. Increase by one damage die per point of augmentation.
Shadow Body: 8th level (15 PP per cast), lose physical form to be a shadow but can still use powers. DR 10/magic, Darkvision 60ft., immune to extra damage from crits, drowning, disease, poison. Half damage from acid, electric, and fire. +15 to stealth to go unnoticed.
Timeless Body: 9th level (17 PP per cast), pretty much immune to everything until the end of your next turn (due to requiring a standard action to cast I assume it means you pretty much only get to cast again on your next turn without quickening something else; the spell itself can't be quickened).
Off the top of my head those really strike me as the only ones I'd worry about seeing repeated castings.
Sakuri wrote: Well I have the PDF open in front of me and have been flipping through the spell list for a while. I wouldn't say there are many game breakers but there are a few that make me raise an eyebrow without anything to compare it to.
Energy Wave: 7th level (13 PP per cast), 13d6 (+1 per die if Fire or Cold) in a 120ft. cone. Increase by one damage die per point of augmentation.
Shadow Body: 8th level (15 PP per cast), lose physical form to be a shadow but can still use powers. DR 10/magic, Darkvision 60ft., immune to extra damage from crits, drowning, disease, poison. Half damage from acid, electric, and fire. +15 to stealth to go unnoticed.
Timeless Body: 9th level (17 PP per cast), pretty much immune to everything until the end of your next turn (due to requiring a standard action to cast I assume it means you pretty much only get to cast again on your next turn without quickening something;the spell itself can't be quickened).
Off the top of my head those really strike me as the only ones I'd worry about seeing repeated castings.
There are a lot more powers than that to worry about. The fact is that Psionic powers are just as powerful as spells.
You mentioned Wish, but compare it to Reality Revision.
So, Psions can cast just as powerful effects, but can cast them more often.
I'm going to assume that Reality Revision is comparable to Wish.
So In short, I was saying who can cast more magic missile is less of a big deal than who can cast more wish.
Being able to cast wish half a dozen or more times per day than the other guy is a pretty big deal.
I'd have to read Wish to confirm but at the moment I'm willing to take your word for it.
If nothing else, even after all of this; this doesn't prove that PP is a bad system. It just means DS made the mistake of giving the Psion too many PP to work with. The system itself has always worked just fine whenever I've played it or when I've let others play with Psionics. If people don't want there to be as many powers per day then cut down on the total number gained per level. (Personally I always found a number between the 3.5 Psion and Wilder as a middle ground did the trick just fine.)
Augmentation has always been a far more stable system than Caster Level scaling, at least in my experience anyway.
If you give them many less points, they have a much smaller number of low-level spells they can use.
You need to find the *happy medium* or whatever, I suppose, or to avoid the headaches entirely, have all your casters either one system or the other. Or, I suppose, if you dont mind adding more complication, you could put limits on how many of each spell level can be cast per day in the PP system, but still allow more flexibility than vancian allows.
DΗ wrote: I'm going to assume that Reality Revision is comparable to Wish.
So In short, I was saying who can cast more magic missile is less of a big deal than who can cast more wish.
Being able to cast wish half a dozen or more times per day than the other guy is a pretty big deal.
That's right.
The issue is which class can do the most in combat. Being able to do a thousand magic missile spells isn't a concern because combat doesn't last a thousand rounds. You want to be able to do damage/effect faster than the enemy is doing damage/effect to you.
DΗ wrote: If you give them many less points, they have a much smaller number of low-level spells they can use.
You need to find the *happy medium* or whatever, I suppose, or to avoid the headaches entirely, have all your casters either one system or the other. Or, I suppose, if you dont mind adding more complication, you could put limits on how many of each spell level can be cast per day in the PP system, but still allow more flexibility than vancian allows.
I doubt that there is a happy medium. Power points are just a bad way to go. That's not the same thing as saying that we must use Vancian, though.
Why are power points a bad way to go, necessarily?
Conan uses PP, M&M Uses PP, World of Darkness uses PP, Classic Unisystem Uses PP, Final Fantasy uses PP, etc, and so do several other systems, and they work great;
I think its only a problem to use both PP & Vancian. Either you get too many top level spells, or not enough lower level spells, when compared to Vancian.
Personally I'd prefer to have to make a spellcasting roll, and not use points *OR* slots (and go with something like Ghosts of Albion), but thats neither here nor there.
You could just change the conversion rate between spell levels, to make it more expensive to grab extra top level spells, perhaps.
DΗ wrote: Why are power points a bad way to go, necessarily?
Conan uses PP, M&M Uses PP, World of Darkness uses PP, Classic Unisystem Uses PP, Final Fantasy uses PP, etc, and so do several other systems, and they work great;
I think its only a problem to use both PP & Vancian. Either you get too many top level spells, or not enough lower level spells, when compared to Vancian.
Personally I'd prefer to have to make a spellcasting roll, and not use points *OR* slots (and go with something like Ghosts of Albion), but thats neither here nor there.
You could just change the conversion rate between spell levels, to make it more expensive to grab extra top level spells, perhaps.
Conan does use PP, but the powers available are -very- limited. I could probably count the number of combat powers available to the Scholar on one hand in that game and they aren't very powerful. Conan d20 magic is the one bad thing in an otherwise exceptionally well designed system.
There are a lot of systems that use power points successfully, but they aren't DnD 3x. Go ahead and try to figure out where the number of points should be set per level in order to keep it balanced with the other classes without changing so much that its no longer recognizable as d20 and while keeping it simple.
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