How to kill your deity?


Advice


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First post!

So, I was wondering, how would a cleric go about killing their deity of worship?

I'm playing in an evil campaign -- a sort of monsters vs. heroes game -- and my character is a level 14 chaotic evil fiendish gnoll cleric that worships Yeenoghu.

Obviously there are some dire consequences should one even attempt such a thing -- like your deity taking all your clerical magic away at the hint of a rebellion -- but I'm trying to figure out a way for my character to prepare for this eventuality and take over the 442nd layer of the Abyss.

I know, lofty goals for a level 14, but he's a nut, and is convinced that everyone in power must be crushed, including his beloved deity (did I mention he is chaotic?)

So, any thoughts? I don't even know if there's a mechanic for this, but it's something I need to figure out. I can use any advice for a class build, or a way of insulating my character from losing his class skills (perhaps switch to a more powerful deity?), assuming this campaign goes up to level 30.


Step 1: Don't be a cleric of that particular deity you are trying to kill.


Lots of help. The moment it gets a whif of this you are an ex cleric. I am of the school of though the moment the idea forms in your head you are an ex-cleric myself.

Shadow Lodge

There's no mechanic, and there will never be a mechanic. Basically, it's up to you and your GM to figure out what it takes.


Your best bet may be to take the test of Starstone, becoming a god yourself.

There was some 3rd Edition material in the Book of Ultimate Darkness (I believe) on a prestige class that steals clerical power, the Ur-Priest (again - I believe) and a race of almost-humans whose sole purpose in life is to kill the gods. You may find some help in there.


Let's hypotize you can succeed.
Actually, you do know, I assume, that even if you manage to keep Cleric powers and spells through the rebellion, the moment you kill your God they're gone without repair, do you?


Logic. ;-)


I also think that the mere idea forming is enough for a deity to know. But. That aside. Have your CE cleric consult with the Red Mantis god. He does that kind of thing professionally.

Silver Crusade

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I think deities with mostly evil worshipers are used to crazy ideas floating in the heads of their spell casting worshipers. I am sure that killing your own deity and taking his power is actually pretty common given the mindset.

Realistically, maybe one in 100 million will have a chance at even getting to his fortress in hell to try and challenge the god. Then even fewer will get in the fortress and even fewer will even be able to survive the god's first strike. So from a god's viewpoint it might mean he can have a real challenge for once or it is so rare it might as well not happen.

These evil gods probably encourage it in order to further their own goals (death and destruction and pain). Once the cleric is an actual threat they will deal with it.

If your powers are taken a rival evil god might restore them just to cause his rival trouble.


Assuming he is a lesser deity and has 800 health, Go to the nearest metropolis or two. Gather 70,000 arcane casters of at least first level.

Build a stadium large enough to hold all of them, within 110 feet of the center. Really cram them in there. Have them all ready magic missiles, and unleash it directly after the next step. Summon your god to that stadium however you can.

You will have a 99.99% chance of immediately killing that god, after the rolls for spell resistance and assuming none of them are high enough level to gain additional missiles.


Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:

Your best bet may be to take the test of Starstone, becoming a god yourself.

There was some 3rd Edition material in the Book of Ultimate Darkness (I believe) on a prestige class that steals clerical power, the Ur-Priest (again - I believe) and a race of almost-humans whose sole purpose in life is to kill the gods. You may find some help in there.

You would be thinking of the Book of Vile Darkness, which does contain the Vashar (who want to kill the gods). It also contains the 3.0 version of the Ur-Priest prestige class. (The 3.5 version is in Complete Divine).


This is probably more of a reasonable and realistic expectation, rather than "oh you don't like me? Oops, your powers are gone," but of course, that's up to the GM.

Thanks, this'll give me something to think about.

karkon wrote:

I think deities with mostly evil worshipers are used to crazy ideas floating in the heads of their spell casting worshipers. I am sure that killing your own deity and taking his power is actually pretty common given the mindset.

Realistically, maybe one in 100 million will have a chance at even getting to his fortress in hell to try and challenge the god. Then even fewer will get in the fortress and even fewer will even be able to survive the god's first strike. So from a god's viewpoint it might mean he can have a real challenge for once or it is so rare it might as well not happen.

These evil gods probably encourage it in order to further their own goals (death and destruction and pain). Once the cleric is an actual threat they will deal with it.

If your powers are taken a rival evil god might restore them just to cause his rival trouble.


Thanks, I believe I have that book somewhere (used it for abyssal heritor feats). I'll take a look.

Jeraa wrote:
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:

Your best bet may be to take the test of Starstone, becoming a god yourself.

There was some 3rd Edition material in the Book of Ultimate Darkness (I believe) on a prestige class that steals clerical power, the Ur-Priest (again - I believe) and a race of almost-humans whose sole purpose in life is to kill the gods. You may find some help in there.

You would be thinking of the Book of Vile Darkness, which does contain the Vashar (who want to kill the gods). It also contains the 3.0 version of the Ur-Priest prestige class. (The 3.5 version is in Complete Divine).

Dark Archive

Defiant PRC / 3.5
- Defiants take the teaching of the Athar to heart in a way that grants them tremendous powers against those who claim to wield divine might.

DEFIANT

:
Hit Die: d8.
Requirements
To qualify to become a defiant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Will Save Bonus: +5.
Skills: Knowledge (planes) 1 rank, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks.
Special: Defiants cannot worship any deity or have one as a patron. Any character who has any connection to a god, demigod, or other divine entity must renounce that connection before taking a level in this prestige class.
A paladin or cleric of a specific god cannot become a defiant until the character renounces all belief and faith in the deity, becoming an ex-cleric or ex-paladin and losing all spells and class features except for armour and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. This restriction does not affect clerics who worship a cause or a nonpersonified source of divine magic.

Class Skills
The defiant’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the defiant prestige class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Defiants gain no proficiency with any weapon or armour.
Spell Resistance (Su): A defiant gains spell resistance equal to 15 + class level against all divine mind-affecting spells. He cannot voluntarily lower this spell resistance. This benefit does not stack with other sources of spell resistance. When a defiant is the target of a divine mind-affecting spell, he uses his highest spell resistance value.
Divine Resistance (Su): At 2nd level and higher, a defiant adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his saving throws against divine spells.
Divine Damage Immunity (Su): At 3rd level, a defiant gains immunity to damage from divine power, such as that dealt by a flame strike spell.
Divine Cancellation (Ex): At 4th level, a defiant learns how to counterspell divine spells without casting a spell. The defiant must ready an action to counterspell (as normal), but need not identify the spell with Spellcraft. Treat this ability as if the defiant were using dispel magic to counter the spell, at a caster level of 5 + the defiant’s class level. A defiant can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
Aligned Strike (Su): A defiant of 5th level or higher can, with a touch, align a weapon or natural weapon so that it is treated as of a specific alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The defiant can choose any alignment (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), even if that alignment opposes his own. He may not use this ability on any weapon that already has an alignment. He can use this ability once per day at 5th level and twice per day at 10th level. Each use lasts for a number of minutes equal to his class level.
Divine Prevention (Su): Once per day, a defiant of 6th level or higher can use a standard action to bestow temporary spell resistance (15 + class level) upon a single target. The spell resistance affects only the next divine spell targeted at the subject, even a beneficial spell such as bless or cure light wounds. If the target has not used the spell resistance within 24 hours, it fades.
If the target is unwilling, the defiant must make a successful touch attack as a standard action. If the attack succeeds, the target must attempt a Will saving throw (DC 10 + defiant’s class level + defiant’s Cha modifier). If the saving throw fails, the spell resistance takes effect.
Nondetection (Su): At 7th level, a defiant gains the continuous benefit of a nondetection spell as though cast by a sorcerer of a level equal to the defiant’s class level. The DC of any attempt to break through the effect is equal to 15 + the defiant’s class level.
A defiant can choose to suppress this ability. Suppressing or reestablishing it is a free action.
Divine Retribution (Su): At 8th level, a defiant expands the versatility of his divine cancellation ability. If he successfully counters a divine spell, the defiant may cause the spell to rebound at the original caster instead of causing it to fail. This ability can be used only against divine spells that target the defiant, not spells that affect an area or those that target another creature.
Divine Interference (Su): At 9th level, a defiant’s connection to the Great Unknown becomes so strong that he generates a field that interferes with all divine spellcasting. Any spellcaster within 30 feet of the defiant must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + defiant’s class level + spell level) in order to successfully cast a divine spell. If the check fails, the spell fails and is lost. A defiant cannot choose to suppress this ability.
Divine Disavowal (Su): At 10th level, a defiant’s spell resistance extends to cover all divine spells. He cannot voluntarily lower this spell resistance. This benefit does not stack with other sources of spell resistance. When a defiant is the target of a divine spell, he uses his highest spell resistance value.

Fallen Clerics
- Clerics who have turned away from their deities make the best defiants. They have heard the lies, and even believed them for a time, which makes them extremely effective at speaking out against their previous beliefs. A cleric who worshiped a specific deity (as opposed to an alignment, cause, or philosophy) before taking a level in the defiant prestige class can immediately exchange up to nine of his cleric class levels in exchange for an equal number of defiant levels. For example, a 7th-level cleric/1st-level fighter who takes a level of defiant can exchange all his cleric levels for defiant levels, becoming a 1st-level fighter/8th-level defiant. This is likely a profitable trade for an ex-cleric, since he has given up his cleric class features in order to qualify for the defiant class.
In addition, the character gains extra benefits based on the number of cleric levels traded in. These benefits are cumulative.
One or More Levels: The defiant can heal his own wounds as a supernatural ability. Each day, he can heal a number of points of damage equal to his defiant class level × his Cha modifier, and he can spread this healing out among several uses.
Three or More Levels: The defiant can imbue himself with enhanced strength, health, insight, or force of personality three times per day as a supernatural ability. He gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, or Charisma for a number of minutes equal to his defiant class level.
Five or More Levels: Once per day, the defiant can grant himself the supernatural ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature. This ability lasts for 1 hour and otherwise functions like the tongues spell.
Seven or More Levels: The defiant can use dismissal as a spell-like ability twice per day.
Nine Levels: The defiant can use plane shift as a spell-like ability three times per day.

The Athar

:
- The "gods" are liars, every single one of them - liars ands frauds. They aren't deities. They're mortals - extremely powerful mortals, to be sure, but nothing more. They are given to petty emotions, they reqiuire sustenance in the form of prayers and the belief of their followers, and, when denied that, they die. Think about it: If the deities really are the source of all creation, why is it, that many clerics can cast divine magic without devoting themselves to any deity? There may indeed be an omnipotent entity (or collection of entities) responsible for making and tending reality, but if so, that power must be completely incomprehensible to the minds of mere mortals. Members of the organization known as the Athar refer to this theoretical true god as "the Great Unknown."

The Athar are sometimes called "defiers" or "lost" because their beliefs bring them into direct philosophical (and occasionally physical) conflict with just about every religion ever established in the multiverse. They try to convince worshipers of various deities that they are being duped by a cosmic confidence scam. The Athar rarely take their accusations to the "gods" themselves.

After all, even if they are only mortals playing at divinity, they are extraordinarily powerful mortals playing at divinity, and it is unwise to incur their wrath unnecessarily.

The Athar spend a great deal of their time on the Astral Plane. They have established a many-windowed observatory from which visitors can view the bodies of dead and dying "gods." This sight fills faction members with righteous glee, since they consider it to be absolute, irrefutable proof that their tenets are correct.

Lore Of The Athar
- Crystal Cask of the Great Unknown: The Athar tell a tale among themselves concerning the Crystal Cask of the Great Unknown. According to the Athar, this potent artifact predates the deities as they are currently understood. The Cask is said to contain the essence of divinity - power that, once shattered, allowed for the sudden multiplicity of pretender deities. The reason the Cask was shattered is something all Athar (who believe in this tale) would dearly love to learn. Some among the Athar believe that if all the shards of the Crystal Cask can be gathered together, the "loose divine energy" that currently powers deities great and small will be contained anew. The pretender gods would be extinguished, and the Great Unknown would finally be revealed as the true architect of all that exists.

Seeds of Rebellion: A sect made up of once-loyal Athar has broken away from the main organization. These rebellious Athar are led by one of their number known only as the lecturer. This figure issued a proclamation prior to the breakaway, which can be summarized as: "The Enemy knows all, sees all, penetrates all minds, and skews all policies. The Great Unknown is just one more scale. let it fall away, and embrace the true knowledge of reality."

The rebellious Athar live in secret, hunted by loyal Athar, though few ever find them; the rebels are too schooled in accepted Athar lore to be tripped up by philosophical tests. These seeds of rebellion that exist within the Athar organization are the subject of cautionary tales told by Athar elites to newcomers to the fold, related to illustrate the dangers of moving too far from the central doctrine. What do the rebellious Athar truly believe? It is a question that plagues the mind of some.

Shadow Lodge

Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:

Assuming he is a lesser deity and has 800 health, Go to the nearest metropolis or two. Gather 70,000 arcane casters of at least first level.

Build a stadium large enough to hold all of them, within 110 feet of the center. Really cram them in there. Have them all ready magic missiles, and unleash it directly after the next step. Summon your god to that stadium however you can.

You will have a 99.99% chance of immediately killing that god, after the rolls for spell resistance and assuming none of them are high enough level to gain additional missiles.

Where are you pulling this crap from? Gods don't have stats, be they "lesser dieties" or not. And really, 70,000 spellcasters? That's not a metropolis, that's a goddamn continent (or three).


Not to mention that all cool lesser deities have permanent shield anyway :P (I too can invent stats)


Kthulhu wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:

Assuming he is a lesser deity and has 800 health, Go to the nearest metropolis or two. Gather 70,000 arcane casters of at least first level.

Build a stadium large enough to hold all of them, within 110 feet of the center. Really cram them in there. Have them all ready magic missiles, and unleash it directly after the next step. Summon your god to that stadium however you can.

You will have a 99.99% chance of immediately killing that god, after the rolls for spell resistance and assuming none of them are high enough level to gain additional missiles.

Where are you pulling this crap from? Gods don't have stats, be they "lesser dieties" or not. And really, 70,000 spellcasters? That's not a metropolis, that's a g*&%+%n continent (or three).

Well I always like to think that gods are powered by belief, So if you get 70,000 people to believe that magic missiles can kill a god at the same time it just might work.

of course getting them to believe that might take some work.


I think Yeenoghu would appreciate the idea. It is how he wants his gnolls to live, after all. Kill the alpha and you become the next one. Seriously, I could see him squashing a cleric for NOT thinking this way. And when it comes down to it, how did Yeenoghu get where he did? Don't assume a chaotic evil demon lord thinks in terms of transgresdions or taboos.


well you are ambitious, but I believe there is no way around becoming a god yourself first. I believe there is a way for that in some of the published adventures (not my of cake).
Then, when you start granting yourself your own spells, you might have a chance killing another diety.

If I were your GM, I would let the God plan something special, that lets the character believe he has achieved what he wanted, but actually he did exactly what the god wanted (because he is also evil and chaotic, and for more intelligent). Don't kill the player for what he wanted, because you wouldn't kill a fly if you knew it wanted to kill you but had no way of doing so.


If you are in Golarion, probably need to survive the Starstone and become a god yourself first.

Something else in other compaign worlds.

The mechanic would be killing him in his home plane. I would say you can't use spells he grants directly against him in the fight. Though you might be able to get away with buffs on yourself and allies right before the fight if you are sneaky enough. Once the fight starts I would expect him to strip away any spells/powers he granted.

Most campaigns that I have seen you can weaken a god by destroying huge quantities of his worshipers. Of course then he knows you are coming after him and will stop granting spells/powers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

If you are in Golarion, probably need to survive the Starstone and become a god yourself first.

Congratulations, you've passed the test. Welcome to the bottom of the divine pecking order. Now you need to go up against someone who's been at the job longer than you have and not only knows the ropes but has connections of his own.

If you're looking for rules on what to do what you seek? There pretty much aren't any. In fact, there are no extant rules on what defines a god. It's up to your GM to make a scenario where that would be possible, and that usually involves a cleverly constructed string of circumstances involving the actions of artifacts, other gods, or other unspeakable beings that we won't speak of.

Dark Archive

TajTiger wrote:
So, I was wondering, how would a cleric go about killing their deity of worship?

Most dieties would frown on that sort of thing, and ex-cleric levels are surprisingly crappy. Not quite as bad as Commoner levels, but arguably worse than almost anything else. Good luck killing your god when you're struggling to outfight an Adept or Expert.

A few select (mostly chaotic and non-good) dieties would shrug and exclaim, "They're so cute when they're that age," and go back to sipping ambrosia, confident that their lack of stats means that they can't be killed by any means that would involve the use of Euclidean dice in any event. Others might just smite you instantly for entertaining the thought. Pharasma, for instance, doesn't seem like the sort of lady who puts up with much in the way of shenanigans from her clergy, and it's probably less effort for her (and more in-character and thematic for her) to snip your life-thread than strip your clerical abilities and send an Aleax or Hound of Ill Omen to mess up your week...

I remember, as an Troll Shaman (worshipper of Cazec-Thule) in EverQuest, being annoyed that the only god that could be killed for phat loot in the early part of that game was Cazec-Thule... (Eventually, they added the Dark Elven god as well, but that just further annoyed me, since my character would have preferred to gank the shiny happy gods of the High & Wood Elves, Dwarves and Halflings.)

I'm not a fan of that sort of un-thematic nonsense, although, obviously, if a god explains to his worshippers that one is the *god of treachery,* and encourages the 'Klingon system of advancement' among his followers, he only has himself to blame if his high priests all smile at him while holding sharp knives behind their backs.

Silly, silly gods of strife, treachery and tyranny. You don't tell your underlings that *stabbing their boss* is the way to get ahead in life unless you are really, profoundly, pathologically short-sighted.


LazarX wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

If you are in Golarion, probably need to survive the Starstone and become a god yourself first.

Congratulations, you've passed the test. Welcome to the bottom of the divine pecking order. Now you need to go up against someone who's been at the job longer than you have and not only knows the ropes but has connections of his own...

Agreed. That is why I said 'first.' What you would have to do after that would be up to your GM to set rules on how to advance your godlidityness. But yes, you would have to seriously monkey-shine yourself to beat one of the elder god's. Or weaken him somehow. Or but together a cabal to help. Or trick some do-gooders into beating him down abit.


God: i refuse to prove that i exist, as proof denies faith, and without faith i am nothing.
Man: But divine magic is a dead give away isn't it? it proves you exist, so by your own arguement you don't. QED.
God: oh dear, i didn't think of that. *Poof*
*God vanishes in a puff of logic*
Man: well that was easy.

Lantern Lodge

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

If you are in Golarion, probably need to survive the Starstone and become a god yourself first.

Congratulations, you've passed the test. Welcome to the bottom of the divine pecking order. Now you need to go up against someone who's been at the job longer than you have and not only knows the ropes but has connections of his own...
Agreed. That is why I said 'first.' What you would have to do after that would be up to your GM to set rules on how to advance your godlidityness. But yes, you would have to seriously monkey-shine yourself to beat one of the elder god's. Or weaken him somehow. Or but together a cabal to help. Or trick some do-gooders into beating him down abit.

Not true

If you are a "Starstone made" Deity, you can...
1) MARRY the Deity you HATE. (getting him/her drunk helps.)
2) Get yourself pregnant by him/her. (Your gods... gender should not be en issue.)
3)Have his/her babies, then
4)file a divorce for Irreconcilable Differences. And
5) Claim half of his assets, which includes his/her divine power/portfolio/domains, as part of the divorce settlement and finally
6) claim the rest of his/her power via child support from him/her.

There, you have just "killed" your enemy Deity not just on a divine level, but socially, economically and mentally. (No other Deity wants to talk to him/her, All his/her believer's prayers goes to your kids and your pockets and he/she can't believe what has happened, respectively.)
Reducing him into a "wait for the next paycheck" broken husk of a deity. :P


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would suggest reading the War of the Spider Queen series. It deals with the possible death and replacement of a CE deity. For specifics I would second the idea that the god would not deny spells to your PC for plotting the god's demise. It is being of pure chaos and evil, what is more chaotic then killing your boss. Secondly I would suggest Deities and Demigods from 3E. It has rules for stating up a god and giving them Divine powers, I'm not suggesting you adopt it whole hog, but there are some good ideas in there. Finally I would say that you may need a strong ally, say a rival god that will assist you in your endeavor, as well as other party members. Another option could be something like in Forgotten Realms where a god can be put on trial for being insufficiently supportive of his own porfolio, which could include not allowing you to challenge him for supremacy.

Good luck, sounds like fun.

Silver Crusade

j b 200 wrote:

I would suggest reading the War of the Spider Queen series. It deals with the possible death and replacement of a CE deity. For specifics I would second the idea that the god would not deny spells to your PC for plotting the god's demise. It is being of pure chaos and evil, what is more chaotic then killing your boss. Secondly I would suggest Deities and Demigods from 3E. It has rules for stating up a god and giving them Divine powers, I'm not suggesting you adopt it whole hog, but there are some good ideas in there. Finally I would say that you may need a strong ally, say a rival god that will assist you in your endeavor, as well as other party members. Another option could be something like in Forgotten Realms where a god can be put on trial for being insufficiently supportive of his own porfolio, which could include not allowing you to challenge him for supremacy.

Good luck, sounds like fun.

That bolded part is one reason why I could not take FR gods seriously. That and the overdo Ao (or whatever) and a few other things.

Still, good advice here.


Secane wrote:

...

Not true

If you are a "Starstone made" Deity, you can...
1) MARRY the Deity you HATE. (getting him/her drunk helps.)
2) Get yourself pregnant by him/her. (Your gods... gender should not be en issue.)
3)Have his/her babies, then
4)file a divorce for Irreconcilable Differences. And
5) Claim half of his assets, which includes his/her divine power/portfolio/domains, as part of the divorce settlement and finally
6) claim the rest of his/her power via child support from him/her.

There, you have just "killed" your enemy Deity not just on a divine level, but socially, economically and mentally. (No other Deity wants to talk to him/her, All his/her believer's prayers goes to your kids and your pockets and he/she can't believe what has happened, respectively.)
Reducing him into a "wait for the next paycheck" broken husk of a deity. :P

LOL!!! I used to play with a divorcee who got taken to the cleaners in the settlement. Probably would have allowed this plan.


Is there some way to become a "demi-God"? You can reach your God's plane of existance and even be in the same area because you are a worthy slave. But, you are just level 14 and even killing a lessor God would be a great challange at level 20. Maybe you should keep thinking about killing him in the back of your mind while you plot and skeem. When you are higher level (and I mean past 20) you could sway some of your Gods enemies to help you over throw him. There were several posts about evil Gods and how over throwing them would not be frowned upon, as that is how they got to where they are now. And I would even say that is expected of their slaves so I would not punish you as a GM for thinking of a coup. Keep us posted on how you eventually decide to take over, sounds like a lot of fun...


Ask Aroden ;)

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