I will be a part of a gestalt campaign in a few weeks, and am looking at concepts for my character. one of which I am thinking of is making a character optimised for speed and acrobatics. high movement speed, be great at tumbling, insane jump checks, etc. [so, uh... a monk? LOL]
I'm curious to see just how ridiculous jump checks can be managed, haha. I want a highily mobile attack-of-opportunity-maniac that leaps at his/her enemies (doesn't leap attack exist in PF? haven't found that in either of the books), really. any tips are welcome! [edit: as for weapons, I was thinking a bit about some form of spear, and making the character slightly inspired by Freya from Final Fantasy IX.]
INFO ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN SETTING:
we are starting as low as level two, but with a somewhat fast-ish level progression (we'll adjust it on-the-fly), so the tips needn't be restricted for level two, as that would be quite boring, obviously.
some the gestalt rules/restrictions that I am aware of right now are:
- only stuff from core, advanced, and ultimate * is allowed
- the races available are: dwarf, human, elf, gnome, orc (minus two on all mental stats and +4 on all physical stats), and halfbreeds that you may design yourself and try to get approved if they don't already exist in the books (i.e. half-elf & half-orc)
- some point buy system... probably 20?
- archetyping is only allowed for one of the classes
- you can't gestalt two spellcasters of the same type of magic
- you can't gestalt opposing classes (e.g. Anti-paladin and Paladin)
Monk+ a full BAB class. Ranger or fighter is a good option.
monk/fighter is what I'm thinking too. any ideas for archetypes? feats? gear? anything is welcome.
Qinggong Monk of the Four Winds Aspect of the Kirin
alexanderb wrote: - the races available are: dwarf, human, elf, gnome, orc (minus two on all mental stats and +4 on all physical stats)
- some point buy system... probably 20 - why??? If you have the above approved???
- you can't gestalt two spellcasters of the same type of magic
- Sorc / Paladin
I don't know what you are confused about. also I see I made a typo regarding the orc. it should have +4 on STR only. +2 on CON and DEX.
Actually, I rather like Monk/Staff Magus for a combo. I think they work fairly well together, other than being very MAD.
Monk will provide your best bet for highest base movement. Barbarian provides a bonus but is lesser. Barbarians get some form of leap attack I think or a pounce or something. Just know that if you go monk you can never wear armor or carry a medium or heavy load or you lose your fast movement ability. Barbarian allows up to medium armor I think. Monk/Kensai works well too so you get a bit from any INT you invest. Your stats to invest in are STR/WIS/INT. DEX would be replaced by INT in this build. Kensai with decent INT gives you good AoO's which stack with your DEX bonus if you have the combat reflexes feat.
Problem is obvisouly stacking 3/4 BAB classes but you will have a few spells to help make up for this and I think you can flurry of blows/spellstrike with a spell like chill touch that could be interesting in destroying a villains STR.
Since you wanted to model it on Freya and use a spear, monk might not be the greatest choice since your spear isn't applicable to monk abilities like flurry of blows which is a great asset and the lacking armor. Other than that though monk provides everything you'll need for the acrobatics side with high base move and high jump.
You could always cheese a little with taking the fleet feat for +5 base movement and go straight fighter since you get an abundance of feats. Unfortunately Acrobatics isn't a class skill and I'm not sure how to get it short of Wisdom in the Flesh but then it's a WIS based skill and not DEX. Then again WIS on a fighter would be useful as far as saves and the DEX is just for AC (reflex saves too I guess) since you can't finesse a spear so you still need STR for that.
Grab a few levels in ninja/rogue to get acrobatics master with your ki pool and high jump. Expert Leaper if you're a rogue. Not necessary with ninja if you have 1 point in your ki pool.
Freya was modelled after the dragoon concept for FF9 so you might want to check the threads on dragoon concepts pertaining to the final fantasy universe.
I'm currently trying to model a character the same way on the dragoon concept and am going to try it out as a rogue(sanctified/survivalist)/Fighter or Cavalier(Order of the Dragon). His god of worship would be Apsu. I only took rogue archetypes to remove the rogue feel in terms of traps and the typical rogue style.
Sythethist Summoner/Monk gestalt would also be really violent - Quadruped will net you 40' of movement + monk bonuses. Expeditious retreat on your spell list. Pounce at first level, and flurry of blow.
And you can also drop physical stats as you will use your eidoilon's.
Ouch.
CunningMongoose wrote: Sythethist Summoner/Monk gestalt would also be really violent - Quadruped will net you 40' of movement + monk bonuses. Expeditious retreat on your spell list. Pounce at first level, and flurry of blow.
And you can also drop physical stats as you will use your eidoilon's.
Ouch.
Monk Fast Movement is considered an enhancement bonus and wouldn't stack with things like Expeditious Retreat. You would only get the better of the two.
Khrysaor wrote: CunningMongoose wrote: Sythethist Summoner/Monk gestalt would also be really violent - Quadruped will net you 40' of movement + monk bonuses. Expeditious retreat on your spell list. Pounce at first level, and flurry of blow.
And you can also drop physical stats as you will use your eidoilon's.
Ouch.
Monk Fast Movement is considered an enhancement bonus and wouldn't stack with things like Expeditious Retreat. You would only get the better of the two. Thanks for the catch (never played a Monk) but nonetheless, just pick another spell, like enlarge person, and you just got 10' of threat range plus your mad 40 feet + monk fat movement.
I still think it would be a really powerfull gestalt, and would allow to dodge the MAD monk issue.
@khrysaor
thank you! you have given me a lot to consider. BTW I can't do Ninja/Monk, because Ninja is treated an alternate class for Rogue AND Monk, and thus we aren't allowed to gestalt them. also I can't go straight [any class]. feel free to link me to FF-dragoon threads. I will search for them myself as well.
@cunningmongoose I haven't looked at the Synthethist archetype before. WOW! it looks completely and utterly awesome. thanks. do you have any ideas in terms of what weapon(s) to use? tips for feats would be appreciated too.
also - what is MAD Monk? I have seen this mentioned on the forum a few times, but IDK what MAD means, heh.
Monk/Wizard (teleportation specalist). Get the dimensional jump feat and you've got a lot of options. run in with monk speed, hit (with touch spell if you need), Swift action teleport several feet away. Or if you have the feat the dimensional version of spring attack.
MAD = Multiple Attribute dependancy. Means you need high stats in several attibutes. Syhthesist will let you dump str, dex and (somewhat) con as you'll use your eidolon's physical stats. It means you'll be able to have high Wis and Cha.
You can look here and adapt for the Monk.
Sythethist/scout
move fast make a lot of sneak atatacks
@cunningmongoose thank you for that clarification.
I didn't find that guide entirely useful for making a Synthethist. the Spells/Summoned Monsters sections will surely useful though. thanks.
how would you distribute ability points for a Synthethist? does the "no Summons while Eidolon"-rule still apply to Synthethist? and finally - do you simply lose all the skills/feats/special abilities that an Eidolon normally gets as a Synthethist?
/me goes reading up on Synthethist some more, because this archetype was seriously cool.
really considering Synthethist/Barbarian as well. I don't know which would be better, Synthethist/Barbarian or Synthethist/Monk. but I'd imagine a Barbarian with Combat Reflexes, Enlarge Person and some polearm or other huge spear-ish weapon would be amazing and precisely what I'm looking for. thoughts?
keep in mind that Rage would likely not affect the synthesist, as you are not using your own Physical ability scores, but teh eidolon's, and the Eidolon isn't the one who rages.
I did not consider this. that makes the Barbarian less interesting. but Synthethist/Fighter would surely be plausible. I am more interested in playing a character that dishes out damage than a grappler or whatever.
I guess, thinking only about RP and not game mechanically, I want to play a character which is very fast and elegant, as well as wise (high perception and sense motive). so I'd like someone that strikes lightning fast, with lots of attacks of opportunity, and charging (which makes Pounce very nice). I'd ideally also like some AC, as I am not primarily looking to make a in-and-out character that just spring attacks all the time, or whatever, but more of a "teleport? lol don't think so, attack of opportunity time!"-character. i.e. someone who hunts down everyone and lets no one escape - and is capable of spectacular acrobatics, jumping down from rooftops, etc.
ultimately, I don't want to play a Monk at all. I just want a lot of acrobatics and attacks of opportunity, which the Monk happens to get. I'd prefer a Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, or whatever to the Monk. I don't want unarmed damage. I don't want to play Lawful. I just want to be fast and have lots of flair.
edit: just realised the Synthethist uses the Eidolon's BAB, so full-BAB classes are kind of meh. and I don't really want to be doing sneak attacks, so Rogue is sort of meh. (on a more positive note, I saw that I get the Eidolon's special abilities - so Evasion at level 2, wee.)
I guess I'm at loss as to which class to gestalt with.
Edgar Lamoureux wrote: keep in mind that Rage would likely not affect the synthesist, as you are not using your own Physical ability scores, but teh eidolon's, and the Eidolon isn't the one who rages. PRD: While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.
I don't know exactly how to interpret this, but I would let it add to the Eidolon's scores, if only because buff spells affecting the syntesist are also affecting the eidolon.
alexanderb wrote: Do you simply lose all the skills/feats/special abilities that an Eidolon normally gets as a Synthethist? You loose skills and feats for the eidolon, but still get everything else, and can't summon while fused. You use your own feats and skills while fused. (So, keep a str score of at least 13 for power attack)
But honestly, I just saw the potential there, and I am by no mean an expert on this class. Never played one myself. I found the guide usefull for the eidoilon builds provided and that you could adapt with little changes to the syntesist.
Paladin/syntesist is also a scary though. High charisma and wisdom are your friend here. (The wemik paladin is a cool concept too, if you don't know what wemiks are, think lion-centaurs. Just add two arms and pounce to your base quadruped, and maybe a secondary bite attack. Charge pounce-smite !)
IDK if I want power attack. I will need some feats to get attacks of opportunities on... everything. which is what I want. I'll also want Mobility. might even get Weapon Finesse (though I'm more interested in using a spear or some other long and cool two-handed weapon).
so I need quite some feats. Fighter! but... while fused I use the Eidolon's BAB, so I might not want a full-BAB class.
I don't want Monk, because I don't want to use unarmed strike at all, ever.
but I know I definitely want to play Synthethist now. this class is just way too cool. Summoner has got to be the coolest class in all of Pathfinder. I'm in love, haha. thanks for triggering my interest.
Obviously monk/ninja. Monk's amazing jumping ability and speed, coupled with a ninja's ability to reduce jump DCs by half (and down to a quarter at level 10 for high jumps). Means that the gestalt can take 10 to jump more than 100ft straight up at level 20.
Also the monk's flurries automatically combo with the sneak-attack progression of the ninja - and the uses for ki points just goes on-and-on.
if you read the first post you'd see that Monk/Ninja is not legal.
if you'd also read further down, you'd see that the issue right now is which class to gestalt with Synthethist. wish I could change the thread title, heh.
lol. I like the idea. It made me giggle like a school girl picturing a monk leaping 100ft in the air. Unfortunately monk High Jump doesn't stack with ninja High Jump as it's the same ability and doesn't reference stacking in the ability. There's lots of good synergy with monk/ninja from other talents and monk abilities that make it a good combo though. Maybe not so much for a spear wielder.
alexanderb wrote: if you read the first post you'd see that Monk/Ninja is not legal.
if you'd also read further down, you'd see that the issue right now is which class to gestalt with Synthethist. wish I could change the thread title, heh.
Monk/ninja is legal. Monk is a base class and ninja is an archetype of rogue only.
EDIT: as with my previous post this is a good combo if you are using a light weapon to finesse and take pirahna strike(same as power attack for dex builds with low str). This helps reduce the usual MAD monk problems by reducing STR needed.
Ninja is an alternate class of Rogue. I thought it was of Monk as well, but I guess it's just something the DM enforced on his own. which is fine.
right now I'm looking at Synthethist/Inquisitor, which looks fairly punishing, haha. IDK though. I'll want high acrobatics, so I think I'm kind of "forced" to get Monk levels... but I don't really want CMB (I just want to charge), and I will never want or use unarmed strike.
alexanderb wrote: Ninja is an alternate class of Rogue. I thought it was of Monk as well, but I guess it's just something the DM enforced on his own. which is fine.
right now I'm looking at Synthethist/Inquisitor, which looks fairly punishing, haha.
lol synthesist does look fun, I've been meaning to try one :D. The only thing I can say about synthesist multi classing is the same for summoner multi classing. You limit your eidolon which is the main use of the class.
Sounds like your GM is being a bit harsh if he's forcing that upon the ninja archetype when the book says it's a rogue archetype only. It only draws similarities to monk if you take the talents that make it that way.
I know. but I don't think I (or anyone else) will be multi-classing.
just remembered Monk can flurry of blows with Monk weapons... Flurry of Blows with Quarterstaff? Pounce at level 1? high acrobatics? Combat Reflexes and Dodge/Mobility as bonus feats?
OK. Synthethist/Monk it is. wow. this looks insanely fun.
Sohei Monk/ Fighter or Ranger to Jump and flurry with weapons
Martial Artist/Barbarian take the Beast totem rage powers for ultimate leaping pounces w/ Flurry
Khrysaor wrote: lol. I like the idea. It made me giggle like a school girl picturing a monk leaping 100ft in the air. Unfortunately monk High Jump doesn't stack with ninja High Jump as it's the same ability and doesn't reference stacking in the ability. There's lots of good synergy with monk/ninja from other talents and monk abilities that make it a good combo though. Maybe not so much for a spear wielder. The monk's and ninja's high jump ability does stack. The reason is that the monk has a class ability called "High Jump"; the ninja can get a ninja trick called "High Jumper". There is no name collision.
- monk level to jump checks and vast speed bonus which increases jump checks more
- ninja ki pool ability at level 10 halves jump DCs
- ninja trick "high jumper" again halves jump DCs for high jumps
Jumping 200+ft far and 100+ft high is readily achievable with a monk/ninja gestalt at level 20.
LoreKeeper wrote: Khrysaor wrote: lol. I like the idea. It made me giggle like a school girl picturing a monk leaping 100ft in the air. Unfortunately monk High Jump doesn't stack with ninja High Jump as it's the same ability and doesn't reference stacking in the ability. There's lots of good synergy with monk/ninja from other talents and monk abilities that make it a good combo though. Maybe not so much for a spear wielder. The monk's and ninja's high jump ability does stack. The reason is that the monk has a class ability called "High Jump"; the ninja can get a ninja trick called "High Jumper". There is no name collision.
- monk level to jump checks and vast speed bonus which increases jump checks more
- ninja ki pool ability at level 10 halves jump DCs
- ninja trick "high jumper" again halves jump DCs for high jumps
Jumping 200+ft far and 100+ft high is readily achievable with a monk/ninja gestalt at level 20.
haha that's awesome. I had to double check but you're right. Doesn't seem that this should be possible and it's hilarious. Only need a 2 level dip in ninja too.
Well, not quite, you need the 10th level effect of the ninja pool; and High Jumper ninja trick requires the acrobatic trick. So there's quite a bit of investment.
LoreKeeper wrote: Well, not quite, you need the 10th level effect of the ninja pool; and High Jumper ninja trick requires the acrobatic trick. So there's quite a bit of investment.
Realized after I posted that you needed acrobatics master as well. Didn't care to edit. Level 4 dip.
Why do you need a 10th level ninja effect if you're multiclassing? Straight ninja for 10 levels + High Jumper = 1/1 for high jumps. With monk you're now at 2/1 for high jumps. Yes the ninja at 10 adds the 1/2 modifer for long jumps too but I thought the purpose of this was going for height. Your base move would never be of a point to use this appropriately unless you burned feats for fleet. 60ft base without feats.
10th level monk provides a +30 base movement that is considered an enhancement. You could just go 10th level ninja and grab boots of speed for the rounds you are going to jump or convince your GM to price out boots of expeditious retreat so you can buy a set and you jump better than a monk ever could. This would avoid all the MAD issues with monk and you could wear light armor.
@Khrysaor:
You're mixing up effects. The Monk's "High Jump" ability doesn't actually do anything for jump DCs, it only gives the monk a bonus to acrobatics on jump checks. The Ninja's ki pool ability at level 10 halves the DCs for jump checks. You need to be level 10 for that benefit. You also need to be at least a level 4 ninja to get "High Jumper" ninja trick, which reduces vertical jump checks by half again.
Since OP is making a gestalt character, he will want to have both ninja and monk levels all the way to level 20 to be the pinnacle of jumping perfection.
However, a non-gestalt character would probably want to take 10 ninja and 10 monk levels, as the monk's High Jump ability adds a bonus to jump checks equal to his monk level. That's a free +10 that you wouldn't readily be able to get by other means.
My suggestion would be a fighter/rogue gestalt. The combination of the fighter BAB and bonus feats with the rogue skill points and sneak attack is a lethal combo that I have used before. You could also use the rogue variant in Unearth Arcana to drop sneak attack and replace it with more fighter bonus feats, if you want make your character into a feat whore. Later as you level, You can swap one of your base classes for a prestige class. I would suggest the dervish from complete warrior for the swap.
LoreKeeper wrote: @Khrysaor:
You're mixing up effects. The Monk's "High Jump" ability doesn't actually do anything for jump DCs, it only gives the monk a bonus to acrobatics on jump checks. The Ninja's ki pool ability at level 10 halves the DCs for jump checks. You need to be level 10 for that benefit. You also need to be at least a level 4 ninja to get "High Jumper" ninja trick, which reduces vertical jump checks by half again.
Since OP is making a gestalt character, he will want to have both ninja and monk levels all the way to level 20 to be the pinnacle of jumping perfection.
However, a non-gestalt character would probably want to take 10 ninja and 10 monk levels, as the monk's High Jump ability adds a bonus to jump checks equal to his monk level. That's a free +10 that you wouldn't readily be able to get by other means.
mah bad. This all goes back to me thinking they were the same ability/name in the first place.
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