paizo.com Recent Posts in Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)paizo.com Recent Posts in Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)2012-01-09T20:31:29Z2012-01-09T20:31:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ringtailhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1892012-01-12T03:13:25Z2012-01-12T03:13:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Set wrote:</div><blockquote>I've played since 1st edition, when a 9th level Fighter got his own keep and 200 men-at-arms or whatever, so, seeing that lame Epic city that they replaced Sigil with in 3.X (Union?), where the guard patrols were groups of a half-dozen 10th level Fighters (who apparently had nothing better to do, despite being mechanically able to defeat an army and take over their own nation-state and 'trod the jeweled thrones of the earth'), made my eyes roll so hard I still haven't found where they ended up.</blockquote><p>Union didn't replace Sigil. Sigil was still 'round. Union was just sort of an epic level version of it, though not nearly as cool.Set wrote:I've played since 1st edition, when a 9th level Fighter got his own keep and 200 men-at-arms or whatever, so, seeing that lame Epic city that they replaced Sigil with in 3.X (Union?), where the guard patrols were groups of a half-dozen 10th level Fighters (who apparently had nothing better to do, despite being mechanically able to defeat an army and take over their own nation-state and 'trod the jeweled thrones of the earth'), made my eyes roll so hard I still haven't found where...Ringtail2012-01-12T03:13:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Sethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1882012-01-12T03:06:59Z2012-01-12T03:06:59Z<p>It probably is best to ignore the notion that the GMG NPCs are meant to represent common or default versions of 'beggers' or 'barmaids' or whatever, and to be the one in a dozen that happens to be worth statting up anyway.</p>
<p>I've played since 1st edition, when a 9th level Fighter got his own keep and 200 men-at-arms or whatever, so, seeing that lame Epic city that they replaced Sigil with in 3.X (Union?), where the guard patrols were groups of a half-dozen 10th level Fighters (who apparently had nothing better to do, despite being mechanically able to defeat an army and take over their own nation-state and 'trod the jeweled thrones of the earth'), made my eyes roll so hard I still haven't found where they ended up.</p>
<p>I tend to downsize (and, occasionally, upsize) NPCs to make them •only• serve the plot role I have assigned for them. I don't much care whether or not it 'makes sense' that they should be higher (or lower) level. Elminster, in my Dales-centric Realms game, was an 8th level Diviner. He provided useful information, but couldn't teleport anywhere and save the day, <i>because he wasn't powerful enough to cast that spell yet.</i> The players even got to rescue him, once.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I don't use the Commoner or Warrior classes at all, and Adepts, Aristocrats and Experts use a faster XP track (and can 'pay the difference' and upgrade to big-boy pants PC classes, with the proper training). If I need stats for the barmaid, she's not going to be a 3rd level Commoner, that's for sure. That class is an insult to perfectly good experience points...</p>It probably is best to ignore the notion that the GMG NPCs are meant to represent common or default versions of 'beggers' or 'barmaids' or whatever, and to be the one in a dozen that happens to be worth statting up anyway.
I've played since 1st edition, when a 9th level Fighter got his own keep and 200 men-at-arms or whatever, so, seeing that lame Epic city that they replaced Sigil with in 3.X (Union?), where the guard patrols were groups of a half-dozen 10th level Fighters (who apparently...Set2012-01-12T03:06:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Bob_Loblawhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1872014-05-14T19:10:31Z2012-01-12T03:02:45Z<p>These NPCs are the ones that have managed to do things that would have gained them XP. Looking over all the sample NPCs from a few different sources, I don't really see it as an issue. I don't think that the majority of these NPCs are going to matter in the long run anyway.</p>These NPCs are the ones that have managed to do things that would have gained them XP. Looking over all the sample NPCs from a few different sources, I don't really see it as an issue. I don't think that the majority of these NPCs are going to matter in the long run anyway.Bob_Loblaw2012-01-12T03:02:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ion Ravenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1862012-01-12T02:31:15Z2012-01-12T02:31:15Z<p>I have to say that I see where Ash is coming from. <i>PCs</i> whom the book states "are special" are supposed to be better than some random commoner. If you start out at 1st level and are brutally outmatched by "some young country boy who can barely hold their liquor", you're not very special, are you. </p>
<p>It be a very different case if "trained guards" were above level 1, as a country boy could very well <i>become</i> a trained guard. In that case, why the heck do PCs even start at level 1? Do they get extra levels if they have a backstory or if they start off older? I mean the PCs are supposed to be special, according to the book, so shouldn't they start off better than "some young country boy"?</p>
<p>In comparison to the PCs, the stats do <i>not</i> make sense as "typical" people even in Golarion. </p>
<p>They might make sense as "reputable" people within a city, but not some average joe just walking around making a safe easy living.</p>I have to say that I see where Ash is coming from. PCs whom the book states "are special" are supposed to be better than some random commoner. If you start out at 1st level and are brutally outmatched by "some young country boy who can barely hold their liquor", you're not very special, are you.
It be a very different case if "trained guards" were above level 1, as a country boy could very well become a trained guard. In that case, why the heck do PCs even start at level 1? Do they get extra...Ion Raven2012-01-12T02:31:15ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1852012-01-12T02:30:49Z2012-01-12T02:30:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>Re: Eberron, artificers have artificially high caster levels for meeting prerequisites. THAT SAID, it's totally off topic and I'll just accept that some items have unusually high CLs for the setting. I'm not recalling them right now, but them's the breaks. I'll have to check stuff later (unless Ash really wants his thread jacked more).</blockquote><p>I like taking the scenic route too. I don't mind my thread taking a few twists and turns now and again, as long as there's conversation. Also, I believe the airships and some of the weapons and armor (most any of the elemental binding stuff) was generally CL 9+, in a world where the biggest baddest dudes were 10th level at the beginning of the campaign (though it did note that they could creep up with level a bit if you needed them to, as ongoing pro/antagonists).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Tangentially related to the tangent: I've come to the conclusion that PF actually makes a better 3.0 Forgotten Realms than the 3.0 Forgotten Realms, too (in most cases), in the same way it makes Eberron more Eberron-y/capable of existing. Everything just functions better with PF in place and makes more sense (presupposing 3.X prestige classes were allowed in specific instances, that is). </blockquote><p>Yeah pretty much. Pathfinder's not perfect, but it really does a lot of stuff far better than 3.x did. The largest differences being the minor ones, like the way skills are distributed, magic item creation, and so forth.Tacticslion wrote:Re: Eberron, artificers have artificially high caster levels for meeting prerequisites. THAT SAID, it's totally off topic and I'll just accept that some items have unusually high CLs for the setting. I'm not recalling them right now, but them's the breaks. I'll have to check stuff later (unless Ash really wants his thread jacked more).
I like taking the scenic route too. I don't mind my thread taking a few twists and turns now and again, as long as there's conversation....Ashiel2012-01-12T02:30:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Tacticslionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1842012-01-12T02:19:32Z2012-01-12T02:19:32Z<p>Eh, it still feels a bit off to me too, and I know we're not the only two. As mentioned, there's plenty of people who feel differently, but simply saying "nah, you're just wrong"... well, that <i>also</i> feels wrong. I probably wouldn't make a large thing like Ash did in the OP, but it still feels and looks really out-there relative to the way it's presented: it seems very artificially high.</p>
<p>Also: Einstein was <i>totes</i> 5th-6th level, in game terms (a base DC of 10 for knowledge in our world is very different from a base DC of 10 in the PF one - knowledge is much more prevalent and open to all in general, due to basic education). I'd definitely stand with the Alexandrian blog on that. Of course, Einy was <i>also</i> totes lacking in any character levels whatsoever, 'cause, dudes, he's real and this is game. :D</p>
<p>Re: Eberron, artificers have artificially high caster levels for meeting prerequisites. THAT SAID, it's totally off topic and I'll just accept that some items have unusually high CLs for the setting. I'm not recalling them right now, but them's the breaks. I'll have to check stuff later (unless Ash really wants his thread jacked more).</p>
<p>Tangentially related to the tangent: I've come to the conclusion that PF actually makes a better 3.0 Forgotten Realms than the 3.0 Forgotten Realms, too (in most cases), in the same way it makes Eberron more Eberron-y/capable of existing. Everything just functions better with PF in place and makes more sense (presupposing 3.X prestige classes were allowed in specific instances, that is).</p>Eh, it still feels a bit off to me too, and I know we're not the only two. As mentioned, there's plenty of people who feel differently, but simply saying "nah, you're just wrong"... well, that also feels wrong. I probably wouldn't make a large thing like Ash did in the OP, but it still feels and looks really out-there relative to the way it's presented: it seems very artificially high.
Also: Einstein was totes 5th-6th level, in game terms (a base DC of 10 for knowledge in our world is very...Tacticslion2012-01-12T02:19:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Bob_Loblawhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1832014-05-14T19:10:31Z2012-01-12T01:50:48Z<p>So the Expert 4/Warrior 1 with the massive +3 to hit with his sap is a problem? He's an incredible CR 3. As it says, he is used to some fighting in his establishment.</p>
<p>This is the description of the drunkard:
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Drunkards might be used as common sailors on shore leave, young country boys visiting town for the first time who can't hold their liquor, or drunk and disreputable off-duty guardsmen. A drunkard could even be used as a surly barkeep who samples his own wares a little too often.</blockquote><p>The stats actually do seem to fit that description. I think that the disconnect is that you have looked only at the numbers and not at what those numbers are supposed to represent.So the Expert 4/Warrior 1 with the massive +3 to hit with his sap is a problem? He's an incredible CR 3. As it says, he is used to some fighting in his establishment.
This is the description of the drunkard:
Quote:Drunkards might be used as common sailors on shore leave, young country boys visiting town for the first time who can't hold their liquor, or drunk and disreputable off-duty guardsmen. A drunkard could even be used as a surly barkeep who samples his own wares a little too often.
...Bob_Loblaw2012-01-12T01:50:48ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1822012-01-12T00:27:38Z2012-01-12T00:27:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bob_Loblaw wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote>Actually this was my beef with it. I think it would be wonderful to have a lot of premade NPCs that new GMs (or GMs on a tighter schedule) can reference for all kinds of stats. I just would have liked to have seen it more usable. Like you pointed out, they fail at what they are supposed to be - typical examples.</blockquote><p>You keep declaring this like it's a fact but the simple fact is that these are typical (read: "common" since that's the exact word used in the book). They don't fit your idea of what should be, but they are what the developers feel they should be. Since they are the ones who are actually writing the game, I think their opinion on what's "common" carries far more weight.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I think I would have liked to see more usable NPCs. A nix mixture of low level NPCs plus some NPCs that could be dropped into games as allies or enemies. </blockquote>That's pretty much what they did except <i>you</i> don't find them personally usable. As was pointed out many times in this thread (and I'm sure others), they are very usable to many people. Looking through all the various NPCs throughout Pathfinder, it looks like there are already a bunch of low-level NPCs that start to look like clones because of the limited options of low-level characters. I wonder if you would have a different opinion if you looked at CR instead of levels? </blockquote><p>Not really. CR is a measure of overall difficulty to defeat in combat. Level is a hard measure of what you are capable of in terms of raw statistics. For example, a 6th level warrior is roughly CR 3-4. (depending on whether you use the Core or Bestiary CR guidelines), but his BAB is still going to be +6/+1, 33 base HP, and his maximum ranks in a skill will be 6.
<p>As many others have pointed out, most exceptionally mundane characters don't need large statblocks, but special characters might. Especially those you might use as heroes, villains, and so forth. I just don't really see using a 5th level warrior bartender as that, nor see why the typical drunk is more dangerous than your typical solider, etc. Just breaks my verisimilitude.</p>
<p>I would have rather seen some stuff like...
<br />
Elite Hitman (Warrior 5 / Assassin 3), Battlemage (Wizard 5 / Warrior 4), Sage with Familiar (Expert 3 / Adept 2), Warlord (Warrior 10 / Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2), Necromancer Lord (cleric 3 / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 10), Manhunter (Ranger 1/Warrior 4/Assassin 1), Grand Vizier (Bard 7 / Adept 2), Cultist (Expert 1 / Cleric 3), Warpriest (Warrior 4 / Cleric 5), Wandering Weaponmaster (Fighter 4 / Warrior 6), etc, etc, etc.</p>
<p>If you use the Bestiary guidelines for determining CR, most of those are CR 8 or less, and most of them can be quickly grabbed and used as good guys, bad guys, or dudes in between.</p>
<p><b>EDIT:</b> Actually, there's not much point in my talking about it. I will write a pdf booklet of NPCs and post it on the forums when it is done. That way I can give to everyone.</p>Bob_Loblaw wrote:Ashiel wrote:Actually this was my beef with it. I think it would be wonderful to have a lot of premade NPCs that new GMs (or GMs on a tighter schedule) can reference for all kinds of stats. I just would have liked to have seen it more usable. Like you pointed out, they fail at what they are supposed to be - typical examples.
You keep declaring this like it's a fact but the simple fact is that these are typical (read: "common" since that's the exact word used in the book)....Ashiel2012-01-12T00:27:38ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Benicio Del Espada (alias of Dave Young 992)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1812012-01-12T00:24:58Z2012-01-12T00:24:58Z<p>I'm in the "like it" camp. Higher level NPCs don't bother me at all. PCs get xp by fighting monsters and getting treasure. NPCs get xp by being commoners and kings. They don't live by the same rules as the PCs. They're not the stars of the show, they're usually bit players, and only the important ones are remembered at all. </p>
<p>I just don't buy the "Einstein was 5th level" argument. In a fantasy world, there could be 20th level commoners. They're extremely good at being common, and not much of a threat to anyone, normally. </p>
<p>A king <i>should</i> be high level. He runs a kingdom. The position may be inherited, but it's kept by being smart and skilled. He gets king xp for good kinging.</p>I'm in the "like it" camp. Higher level NPCs don't bother me at all. PCs get xp by fighting monsters and getting treasure. NPCs get xp by being commoners and kings. They don't live by the same rules as the PCs. They're not the stars of the show, they're usually bit players, and only the important ones are remembered at all.
I just don't buy the "Einstein was 5th level" argument. In a fantasy world, there could be 20th level commoners. They're extremely good at being common, and not much of a...Benicio Del Espada (alias of Dave Young 992)2012-01-12T00:24:58ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Bob_Loblawhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1802014-05-14T19:10:31Z2012-01-11T23:09:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote>Actually this was my beef with it. I think it would be wonderful to have a lot of premade NPCs that new GMs (or GMs on a tighter schedule) can reference for all kinds of stats. I just would have liked to have seen it more usable. Like you pointed out, they fail at what they are supposed to be - typical examples.</blockquote><p>You keep declaring this like it's a fact but the simple fact is that these are typical (read: "common" since that's the exact word used in the book). They don't fit your idea of what should be, but they are what the developers feel they should be. Since they are the ones who are actually writing the game, I think their opinion on what's "common" carries far more weight.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I think I would have liked to see more usable NPCs. A nix mixture of low level NPCs plus some NPCs that could be dropped into games as allies or enemies. </blockquote><p>That's pretty much what they did except <i>you</i> don't find them personally usable. As was pointed out many times in this thread (and I'm sure others), they are very usable to many people. Looking through all the various NPCs throughout Pathfinder, it looks like there are already a bunch of low-level NPCs that start to look like clones because of the limited options of low-level characters. I wonder if you would have a different opinion if you looked at CR instead of levels?Ashiel wrote:Actually this was my beef with it. I think it would be wonderful to have a lot of premade NPCs that new GMs (or GMs on a tighter schedule) can reference for all kinds of stats. I just would have liked to have seen it more usable. Like you pointed out, they fail at what they are supposed to be - typical examples.
You keep declaring this like it's a fact but the simple fact is that these are typical (read: "common" since that's the exact word used in the book). They don't fit your...Bob_Loblaw2012-01-11T23:09:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1792014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-01-11T22:57:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote> Actually they could. Artificers could to amazing stuff. NONETHELESS that's a bit off topic, though if you'd care to talk about it more, I'd be glad if you opened a thread to do so! (and then told me) </blockquote><p>Exactly what Ashiel said, check the caster level requirements — that is where the problem lies.
<p>@ Ashiel:</p>
<p>I feel that the vast majority of the examples provided were fine. The huge majority of them were rather low level — I'll grant the king is probably a bit out of line, but I don't think he's horrendously so, or not matching the other 'royalty' that has been given levels in the Golarion setting (Kingmaker for example has that one king, and in inner sea magic we see other rulers of higher level too).</p>Tacticslion wrote:Actually they could. Artificers could to amazing stuff. NONETHELESS that's a bit off topic, though if you'd care to talk about it more, I'd be glad if you opened a thread to do so! (and then told me)
Exactly what Ashiel said, check the caster level requirements -- that is where the problem lies. @ Ashiel:
I feel that the vast majority of the examples provided were fine. The huge majority of them were rather low level -- I'll grant the king is probably a bit out of line,...spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-01-11T22:57:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1782012-01-11T22:13:22Z2012-01-11T22:13:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> So, popping in to say two things.</p>
<p>First: my wife wishes it to be known (though I don't think she knows of this thread) that the NPC segment of the guide is, like, one of her most favorite print things ever created in the history of ever, for D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. <span class=messageboard-ooc>No, I don't really understand it either.</span> I figured this was a great place for that information to go. She likes the ease of predefined people with no name or real history, so-to-speak, and that allows her to create her own story without doing all the background math which she fines boring (she's fine with math, but too much NPCing isn't fun for her). She's used them to good effect in no less than three adventures that we've put together. So, you know, they function. Pretty well too. Universally, however, they are the rather notable, named NPCs with specific in-game functions that are relevant to the story, not the run-of-the-mill people the characters interact with. </blockquote><p>Actually this was my beef with it. I think it would be wonderful to have a lot of premade NPCs that new GMs (or GMs on a tighter schedule) can reference for all kinds of stats. I just would have liked to have seen it more usable. Like you pointed out, they fail at what they are supposed to be - typical examples.
<p>I think I would have liked to see more usable NPCs. A nix mixture of low level NPCs plus some NPCs that could be dropped into games as allies or enemies. </p>
<p>I think the thought was great. I've put together little NPC booklets for some friends of mine by request, so they could have a little NPC-gallery of quick-to-reference stats that they could use to represent all kinds of people, or look up the mods for a shopkeeper's appraise skill, etc. I just think that the stats don't make much sense.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Abraham Spalding wrote:</div><blockquote>Eberron was funky in the fact that it was a high magic functioning world where no one could manage to make the magical technology they relied on.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote>Actually they could. Artificers could to amazing stuff. NONETHELESS that's a bit off topic, though if you'd care to talk about it more, I'd be glad if you opened a thread to do so! (and then told me)</blockquote><p>I think there were some items that required strangely high caster levels in Eberron, given the nature of the world. Humorously in Pathfinder this isn't an issue because you don't have to be the caster level of the magic item to create it. It just means the creation of the item is more difficult (higher Spellcraft DC). Combine that with the ability to ignore spell requirements by raising the DC and you're in good shape.
<p>For example, a 3rd level adept with Craft Wondrous Items, a good Intelligence (say 14), and skill focus would be able to take 10 and get a 10 + 6 + 2 + 3 = 21. Masterwork tool makes 23. Then he could also have assistants helping with the project. If you wanted to try and craft an Airship, you could probably get quite a few people working on it, and that means Aid Another for another +2 per person who can hit DC 10 on their aid another.</p>
<p>Just thought that was a bit cute, so I wanted to throw it out there. ^-^</p>Tacticslion wrote:So, popping in to say two things.
First: my wife wishes it to be known (though I don't think she knows of this thread) that the NPC segment of the guide is, like, one of her most favorite print things ever created in the history of ever, for D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. No, I don't really understand it either. I figured this was a great place for that information to go. She likes the ease of predefined people with no name or real history, so-to-speak, and that allows her to create...Ashiel2012-01-11T22:13:22ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Tacticslionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1772012-01-11T21:57:42Z2012-01-11T21:57:42Z<p>Actually they could. Artificers could to amazing stuff. NONETHELESS that's a bit off topic, though if you'd care to talk about it more, I'd be glad if you opened a thread to do so! (and then told me)</p>Actually they could. Artificers could to amazing stuff. NONETHELESS that's a bit off topic, though if you'd care to talk about it more, I'd be glad if you opened a thread to do so! (and then told me)Tacticslion2012-01-11T21:57:42ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1762014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-01-11T21:45:06Z<p>Eberron was funky in the fact that it was a high magic functioning world where no one could manage to make the magical technology they relied on.</p>Eberron was funky in the fact that it was a high magic functioning world where no one could manage to make the magical technology they relied on.spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-01-11T21:45:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Tacticslionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1752012-01-11T21:36:14Z2012-01-11T21:36:14Z<p>So, popping in to say two things.</p>
<p>First: my wife wishes it to be known (though I don't think she knows of this thread) that the NPC segment of the guide is, like, one of her most favorite print things ever created in the history of ever, for D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. <span class=messageboard-ooc>No, I don't really understand it either.</span> I figured this was a great place for that information to go. She likes the ease of predefined people with no name or real history, so-to-speak, and that allows her to create her own story without doing all the background math which she fines boring (she's fine with math, but too much NPCing isn't fun for her). She's used them to good effect in no less than three adventures that we've put together. So, you know, they function. Pretty well too. Universally, however, they are the rather notable, named NPCs with specific in-game functions that are relevant to the story, not the run-of-the-mill people the characters interact with. </p>
<p>Second: Man, that king's got a <i>lot</i> of levels on 'im. I mean: whoa, wow, duuuuuuuuuuuude. That's <i>huge</i>. </p>
<p>In other words, I mostly agree with Ashiel in the sense that these stats don't really make sense in terms of game-world. They seem and feel rather ridiculously inflated, and the sheer power they represent is overwhelming for an "average" member. I understand what Abraham's saying - and he makes great points about it, too. It's just fabulously shocking to be flipping through what I expect to be <i>typical</i> (the colloquial definition of "average") and instead find numerically <i>average</i> (despite what it says on the tin). I find the use of terms a bit misleading in that way. </p>
<p>One other way to look at it: Razmir is successfully masquerading as a <i>god</i> - he has a functional cult, rules a swath of land larger than most monarchs (I think only three actually match him), and people are worshiping him for his power... and he's 17th level. The king, as-presented? He's 16th level. I grant, they're in completely different classes: one's a wizard (PC-class) and one's an aristocrat (NPC-class) and that makes up a lot of the difference in terms of power. It's still somewhat shocking to see. </p>
<p>That said: I'm not terribly upset about it. It functions, it allows things to happen in the story, and if you're pressed for time, but need something, it's an easy go-to to pull stuff out of thin air. If you put time and effort into it, as Abe's shown us, you can justify it rather simply. I don't particularly like the way it was handled... but I've seen it be useful and loved by others (specifically my wife), so you know, as you like (or don't - it's up to you!).</p>
<p>• Addendum: I mean, just look at Eberron, for example. I can't think of any ruler except a centuries old vampire that's above 7th level. There are higher level PCs, of course, but the actual monarchs themselves aren't nearly so high. I do grant that Eberron's a lower-level world. Also, Forgotten Realms runs things pretty high, so I could easily see these guys fitting in there as-described.</p>So, popping in to say two things.
First: my wife wishes it to be known (though I don't think she knows of this thread) that the NPC segment of the guide is, like, one of her most favorite print things ever created in the history of ever, for D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. No, I don't really understand it either. I figured this was a great place for that information to go. She likes the ease of predefined people with no name or real history, so-to-speak, and that allows her to create her own story...Tacticslion2012-01-11T21:36:14ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1742012-01-11T20:48:17Z2012-01-11T20:48:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Liam Warner wrote:</div><blockquote>I had one group who wound up with the kingds elite battlemages CR 12 chasing after them because they'd been <b>slaughtering a bunch of merchants</b> to try and extract information when they were <b>the good guys.</b></blockquote><p>?!??!? ERROR. ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE. ?!??!?Liam Warner wrote:I had one group who wound up with the kingds elite battlemages CR 12 chasing after them because they'd been slaughtering a bunch of merchants to try and extract information when they were the good guys.
?!??!? ERROR. ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE. ?!??!?Ashiel2012-01-11T20:48:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Liam Warnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1732012-01-11T19:06:18Z2012-01-11T19:06:18Z<p>I have to go to work so I don't have time to read through the entire thread right now however I have to say I'm one of the people who think this makes sense. Bear in mind for this I work off a theory that in 3.x/PF level 10 is meant to be a master and level 20 a grandmaster unlike in earlier editions where level 7 was probably close to mastery and level 15/16 grandmastery. Anyway consider the following for those classes which bother you. . .</p>
<p>Solidiers = your average trained military force.
<br />
Begger = an ex adventurer who is no longer able to handle the strain and begs.
<br />
Caravan Guard: On their way to becoming an adventurer because they have to fight off gnolls, goblins and other threats while the average soldier just trains in the barracks.
<br />
Drunkards: Are actually adventurers blowing their latest paycheck.
<br />
Barmaids/Barkeeps: Have spent the past 20 years dealing with highly skilled drunkards/adventurers.</p>
<p>And so on, don't think of it in a vacumn think about who these people normally interact with. Shopkeeper X who sells fine clothes is probably not that big a threat but Shopkeeper Y who sells stuff that draws in surly hulking fighters and powerful wizards who tend to take the view that they should get a massive discount for the work they do and light fingered thieves who like to pick up items on the side well they're going to try and pick up some skills themself so even if they can't protect their stock they'll survive the experience. I had one group who wound up with the kingds elite battlemages CR 12 chasing after them because they'd been slaughtering a bunch of merchants to try and extract information when they were the good guys.</p>I have to go to work so I don't have time to read through the entire thread right now however I have to say I'm one of the people who think this makes sense. Bear in mind for this I work off a theory that in 3.x/PF level 10 is meant to be a master and level 20 a grandmaster unlike in earlier editions where level 7 was probably close to mastery and level 15/16 grandmastery. Anyway consider the following for those classes which bother you. . .
Solidiers = your average trained military force....Liam Warner2012-01-11T19:06:18ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Bob_Loblawhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1722014-05-14T19:10:31Z2012-01-11T18:28:42Z<p>If you look at the sample army I built, I didn't hand out a bunch of levels to soldiers. The high majority are level 1 and nearly the entire army is level 5 or below (just over 99%). There isn't any need to hand out a bunch of levels for an army and it wouldn't really be plausible.</p>If you look at the sample army I built, I didn't hand out a bunch of levels to soldiers. The high majority are level 1 and nearly the entire army is level 5 or below (just over 99%). There isn't any need to hand out a bunch of levels for an army and it wouldn't really be plausible.Bob_Loblaw2012-01-11T18:28:42ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)cranewingshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1712012-01-11T17:00:56Z2012-01-11T17:00:56Z<p>I disagree with handing out a bunch of levels to soldiers. How many guys can beat a dozen other guys?</p>I disagree with handing out a bunch of levels to soldiers. How many guys can beat a dozen other guys?cranewings2012-01-11T17:00:56ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Kydeem de'Morcainehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1702012-01-11T14:14:39Z2012-01-11T14:14:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote><p> ... On the NPC gallery table, we can see the lowest CR dude is in fact a trained footsoldier; warrior 1; CR 1/3. That is, a trained military soldier ready for battle. This guy is pretty much to be expected. He follows the expectancy of your average soldier's power.</p>
<p>A squire; aristocrat 1; CR 1/3 is also fair. It's a nice example of using a class that implies one thing to represent another (aristocrat vs squire). So far so good... </blockquote><p>I'm not going to read through all billion posts.
<p>However, I would say a large part of the problem is right here. These 2 already don't match.</p>
<p>The squire is actually pretty good. A squire is a very young adult being given an opprotunity to learn. In medieval terms say 13 to 14 year old noble's son.</p>
<p>However, the trained footsoldier is (IMO) wrong. A warrior 1 should be a guy who has been practicing with his dad (or uncle) getting ready for apply to join the military. Be cause there is nothing less than level 1. There needs to be a progression from the dude just applying (lv 1), the guy finished with his training (lv 2), the experienced guard who has been doing the job for the last 5 years (lv 3), and the veteran soldier who has been in the thick of combat throughout the war (lv 4). With PF the only way to show that is levels gained.</p>
<p>As I recall the base legends, the goblins are dangerous because there are hordes of them not because any 1 of them was a better fighter than a human soldier. The stats and dark vision of an orc make them about as dangerous as a average stat level 2 warrior.</p>
<p>You need the same kind of progression for beggars. My reading indicates this often started with an 8 year old poor kid. Since there is nothing below level 1. Level 1 has to represent the weakest starting beggar. If you get up to a fellow who is a 20 year old beggar. I don't think it is unreasonable to say he has gained a level in a class by surviving in that very dangerous environment.</p>
<p>I think this works. I think that saying the standard army is made up of level 1 warriors is the part that doesn't work.</p>Ashiel wrote:... On the NPC gallery table, we can see the lowest CR dude is in fact a trained footsoldier; warrior 1; CR 1/3. That is, a trained military soldier ready for battle. This guy is pretty much to be expected. He follows the expectancy of your average soldier's power.
A squire; aristocrat 1; CR 1/3 is also fair. It's a nice example of using a class that implies one thing to represent another (aristocrat vs squire). So far so good...
I'm not going to read through all billion posts....Kydeem de'Morcaine2012-01-11T14:14:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1692012-01-11T04:36:51Z2012-01-11T04:36:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mdt wrote:</div><blockquote>However, since we're here to tell the story of the PCs, we gloss over all the mundane stuff like bathroom breaks, or something 5 or more CRs less than the party, or eating for the most part.</blockquote><p>This made me laugh, 'cause it reminded me of a colorful scene this one time. When the players arrived back in a camp that had a few NPCs, but one of them was missing. One of the players asked where the missing NPC was, to which the other NPC said "I think he's off taking a piss".
<p>For some reason, the look on their faces was very amusing. ^.^</p>mdt wrote:However, since we're here to tell the story of the PCs, we gloss over all the mundane stuff like bathroom breaks, or something 5 or more CRs less than the party, or eating for the most part.
This made me laugh, 'cause it reminded me of a colorful scene this one time. When the players arrived back in a camp that had a few NPCs, but one of them was missing. One of the players asked where the missing NPC was, to which the other NPC said "I think he's off taking a piss". For some...Ashiel2012-01-11T04:36:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)Bob_Loblawhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1682014-05-14T19:10:31Z2012-01-11T02:08:39Z<p>I'm actually very similar in style. If there is a long trek and there could be some encounters that were too easy, I just tell the party what they dealt with. Sometimes I'll play it out, my players like an orc-bash every now and then. Sometimes they'll surprise me with their role playing. There was a time when they decided that the goblins weren't worth the time to beat up but they ended up convincing them to not raid the town they were headed to. I gave them a little XP for the role playing.</p>I'm actually very similar in style. If there is a long trek and there could be some encounters that were too easy, I just tell the party what they dealt with. Sometimes I'll play it out, my players like an orc-bash every now and then. Sometimes they'll surprise me with their role playing. There was a time when they decided that the goblins weren't worth the time to beat up but they ended up convincing them to not raid the town they were headed to. I gave them a little XP for the role playing.Bob_Loblaw2012-01-11T02:08:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)mdthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1672012-01-11T02:01:27Z2012-01-11T02:01:27Z<p>Another aspect to the way I run my games, and I suspect most people do the same thing. </p>
<p>Just because you're level 10, doesn't mean you stop getting attacked by the occasional 1/3 CR or 1/6 CR bandit or goblin or rabid wolf. What it means is, that you dispatch the thing out of hand, no more complicated than killing a rat or scorpion in your sleeping bag. It's so routine that it's not worth XP anymore (yes, I know that's a houserule, but it's the only thing that makes sense, since it has to be a CHALLENGE to give you XP). </p>
<p>However, since we're here to tell the story of the PCs, we gloss over all the mundane stuff like bathroom breaks, or something 5 or more CRs less than the party, or eating for the most part. </p>
<p>The only times those come into play is when it's important to the story, like finding the bathroom in the king's palace during the ball without revealing you're crashing the masquerade ball. :)</p>Another aspect to the way I run my games, and I suspect most people do the same thing.
Just because you're level 10, doesn't mean you stop getting attacked by the occasional 1/3 CR or 1/6 CR bandit or goblin or rabid wolf. What it means is, that you dispatch the thing out of hand, no more complicated than killing a rat or scorpion in your sleeping bag. It's so routine that it's not worth XP anymore (yes, I know that's a houserule, but it's the only thing that makes sense, since it has to be...mdt2012-01-11T02:01:27ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1662014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-01-11T01:46:33Z<p>First off remember that even the enemies are NPCs — so if you have a level 20 villain he's still an NPC, which measn "stupid high level npcs" aren't so stupid anymore. Remember all it takes is <i>one</i> and then you have to justify having such a NPC in your world.</p>
<p>Also I would like to point out for the record that I <b>never</b> suggested NPCs should scale with the players — I said that when a specific NPC was introduced that the description that was provided was correct according to what the PCs knew at that time, and that when they got to level 7 it would be incorrect from their new perspective.</p>First off remember that even the enemies are NPCs -- so if you have a level 20 villain he's still an NPC, which measn "stupid high level npcs" aren't so stupid anymore. Remember all it takes is one and then you have to justify having such a NPC in your world.
Also I would like to point out for the record that I never suggested NPCs should scale with the players -- I said that when a specific NPC was introduced that the description that was provided was correct according to what the PCs knew...spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-01-11T01:46:33ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Gamemastery Guide NPCs (Rant Warning)cranewingshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nczf&page=4?Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs#1652012-01-11T00:25:30Z2012-01-11T00:25:30Z<p>In defense of the stupid high level npcs, I'm running an old school sandbox now that assumes a 1-20 world. Every hex has 3-7th level npcs and between 4 settlements there are 3 people 9th level or higher. This is with the largest settlement being 400 people.</p>In defense of the stupid high level npcs, I'm running an old school sandbox now that assumes a 1-20 world. Every hex has 3-7th level npcs and between 4 settlements there are 3 people 9th level or higher. This is with the largest settlement being 400 people.cranewings2012-01-11T00:25:30Z