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Must say, this is one of my favorite countries (a mageocracy with turnover ruleship). However I am somewhat confused as to how the 'cycle' works.
I understand that there's 4 bloodlines, with each ruling a province; they in turn are ruled by a 5th bloodline, which has the other's abilities (guessing that the Cinnamon Throne is an artifact), and is drawn from the other four's ranks every 10 years.
Now, according to the recent history, Tok Wayra was the ruler, then stepped down and became the 'Lord of Bats' (the stormborn bloodline), and someone else (from the other 4 bloodlines, presumably) takes the throne.
Ok, now the question is...what happened to the the position of magistrate for the storm bloodline's lands while Tok Wayra was the leader? Does a placeholder take care of his duties during that time?
Hmm, the only way it would make sense to me is if the bloodlines aren't specific to any of the magistrates. So Tok Wayra may have originally ascended the Cinnamon Throne from another bloodline.
Or the effects of the Cinnamon Throne can possibly change the blood of the descending kamraten to whatever bloodline necessary.
In either of these cases, the current kamraten, formerly know as Tiger Prince, would have been of the stormborn bloodline and replaced by Tok Wayra.
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P. 16, in the timeline (year 5723), says that there were originally *five* sisters, each of a different bloodline, which, if true, would make sense of the scenario on p. 22.
Going with p. 22, it appears that the four bloodlines divide up the five leadership positions between themselves, which means that, at any given time, there will be at least one bloodline with a pair of leader sorcerers (and no guarantee that that particular bloodline will be the one to get the leadership position on the Cinammon Throne). And, since the concept of each bloodline having a single leader has been thrown out, it's possible in any given decade that a single bloodline might have two, three, four, or even *all five* of the most powerful sorcerers in the nation, and that, for any given ten year period, one, two or even all three of the other bloodlines might have no leadership positions *at all.*
Indeed, given that the precedent is established that at least one bloodline will always have more 'leaders' than the others, most likely the nation is undergoing constant internal 'shadow war,' as members of one ambitious bloodline (stormborn, for instance, already depicted with a tendency to ignore the rules, or what's best for the nation, in favor of personal / family advancement), might arrange for 'accidents' or 'opportunities abroad' for up-and-coming scions of the starsoul, fey or maestro bloodlines, to guarantee that the best sorcerers (and most likely to be chosen to leadership positions) just 'happen' to be of their own bloodline...
With this precedent, of four bloodlines splitting up five leadership positions unevenly amongst their most prominent members, it's increasingly *unlikely* that the current situation, where their just happens to be a prominent starsoul, maestro, fey and stormborn occupying the four regional seats (and who-knows-what occupying the Spicy Chair), would happen, as each of the bloodlines has motivation to squeeze the others out of power and take dominant control of the nation for their own bloodline.
If instead, the regional governments always are occupied by a sorcerer of one specific bloodline (which doesn't seem likely, given the current situation with the Lord of Bats), then it's also possible that different provinces might have more or less sway depending on who was selected as regional leader. It's possible that in one ten year period, the toughest surviving maestro is only 5th level, do to accidents, machinations or just plain bad luck in the genetic lottery, while the most powerful fey sorceress might be 15th level, and her province wield utterly disproportionate national influence because of her personal power, while the starsouls also have unusual influence, because of a 'bumper crop' of young starsouls in this generation, fielding no sorcerers as potent as the fey leader, but having twice as many total young sorcerers this generation as any other bloodline.
With such a small writeup, and contradictory references to five bloodlines (which would make sense with the current setup), or four bloodlines (which would make a dog's supper of the whole scheme, and be much more interesting politically, with all sorts of internal strife and 'shadow war' possibilities), there's all sorts of different ways one could take the Dtang Ma situation.
Creative Director
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Or the effects of the Cinnamon Throne can possibly change the blood of the descending kamraten to whatever bloodline necessary.
This is actually what's going on—the Cinnamon Throne's primary power is to manipulate the ruler's bloodline (and to restore it to its previous bloodline once that ruler steps down from command).
Or the effects of the Cinnamon Throne can possibly change the blood of the descending kamraten to whatever bloodline necessary.This is actually what's going on—the Cinnamon Throne's primary power is to manipulate the ruler's bloodline (and to restore it to its previous bloodline once that ruler steps down from command).
Ok that is where it doesn't make sense to me. If the descending kamraten's previous bloodline is restored AND there are only four bloodlines, then which bloodline did the current kamraten come from?
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Creative Director
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Ok that is where it doesn't make sense to me. If the descending kamraten's previous bloodline is restored AND there are only four bloodlines, then which bloodline did the current kamraten come from?Or the effects of the Cinnamon Throne can possibly change the blood of the descending kamraten to whatever bloodline necessary.This is actually what's going on—the Cinnamon Throne's primary power is to manipulate the ruler's bloodline (and to restore it to its previous bloodline once that ruler steps down from command).
One of those four. We don't say which.
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One of those four.
This structure is very similar to some real word military organizations.
For instance, in the United States Armed Forces the Joint Chiefs of Staff has a General coming from each branch of the Army, Airforce and Marines, and an Admiral from the Navy. All four of these four star flag officers in turn answer to the head of the joint Chiefs who is also a general or admiral drawn from one of the branches (and he is directly under the Secretary of Defense who in turn reports to the President).
Would the fifth bloodline be long gone, is it just weak, or is that supposed to be unknown?
This is actually what's going on—the Cinnamon Throne's primary power is to manipulate the ruler's bloodline (and to restore it to its previous bloodline once that ruler steps down from command).
Okay, I'm feeling quite dense today... if the throne returns a sorcerer's previous bloodline, how does this not create duplicates? For example, while the Lord of Bats was on the throne as Tok Wayra, there was presumably another Stormblood sorcerer. So when Tok Wayra finally gave up the throne... what happened?
Was the Tiger Prince the previous Stormblood? So when Tok Wayra stepped down, he (Tok Wayra) was transformed into a Stormblood sorcerer (regardless of his original bloodline), and the Tiger Prince became Kamraten. Then when the Tiger Prince gives up his throne, he will be given whatever bloodline is left open by the sorcerer ascending to Kamraten?
Or am I missing something? Admittedly, I have trouble figuring out real world royal succession too.
One of those four. We don't say which.Ok that is where it doesn't make sense to me. If the descending kamraten's previous bloodline is restored AND there are only four bloodlines, then which bloodline did the current kamraten come from?Or the effects of the Cinnamon Throne can possibly change the blood of the descending kamraten to whatever bloodline necessary.This is actually what's going on—the Cinnamon Throne's primary power is to manipulate the ruler's bloodline (and to restore it to its previous bloodline once that ruler steps down from command).
I'm assuming that the status of these rulers is publicly known to Dtang Ma citizens and thus that the current kamraten's bloodline is public knowledge. So when you say 'We don't say which' is there a particular reason or just something that wasn't added at the time.
In my attempt to clarify, this is the transition of power in the last Cinammon Throne ascension.
Tok Wayra (kamraten / former stormborn) --> Lord of Bats(stormborn)
Lady of Flowers(fey) --> unchanged
Sister Minivet(maestro) --> unchanged
Walker of the Autumn Moon(starsoul) --> unchanged
Tiger Prince(?) --> (kamraten / former ?)
So there could have been no stormborn in the previous ruling. Hmm, so the question is which bloodline has the majority!
This is where I was confused; if the Kamraten ascends from one of the four lesser rulers (to make an uber-bloodline), who takes his place during his 10-year reign? Does s/he appoint someone to rule that prospective bloodline?
So when Tok Wayra finally gave up the throne... what happened?
Nobody takes his place in the bloodline. The previous kamraten takes his place as a provincial ruler. There are four provinces, and then there is the throne, these are the five positions of office that are swapped around. The bloodline of an individual never changes, but the throne does temporarily give all (active?) bloodlines to the kamraten.
I say 'active' because I think when there was five bloodlines the Cinnamon Throne probably combined all five right? But there is no fifth bloodline still in power to take part in the ritual/process that decides who will be kamraten. So then it follows that if another bloodline lost power to rule, the kamraten would gain power of only three bloodlines. This would be a good reason for each bloodline to not wipe each other out but still strive to have the majority of two rulers in power.
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Nobody takes his place in the bloodline. The previous kamraten takes his place as a provincial ruler. There are four provinces, and then there is the throne, these are the five positions of office that are swapped around.
Sorry, but just to clarify;
Given that the 'Tiger Prince' is the current kamraten. When the decade plays out, one of the other four, lets say the Lady of Flowers, takes over the position of kamraten, and the Tiger Prince takes the place in the fey bloodline's province? Or does a specific provinces not have to align with a specific bloodline?
Sorry if I'm running in circles with this :U
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This is where I was confused; if the Kamraten ascends from one of the four lesser rulers (to make an uber-bloodline), who takes his place during his 10-year reign? Does s/he appoint someone to rule that prospective bloodline?
So when Tok Wayra finally gave up the throne... what happened?
Since the Lord of Bats is the former head honcho, it seems that nobody 'took his place' during his 10 year reign (since, presumably, whoever the last Head Honcho was, stepped down and became a regional governor again, just as the LoB has).
Or perhaps someone did, but that person was demoted back to flunky when the Lord of Bats stepped down to reclaim his regional leadership.
That, of course, assumes that the leaders of the four bloodlines have any relationship at all to the four provinces, and that multiple provinces can't be ruled by members of the same bloodline. After all, if the current boss is a member of one of the four bloodlines (and, he had to be, before he assumed the Hot Seat and became Big Kahuna), that means that there are multiple members of his bloodline in the Top Five. If *any* of the other three are elected to be Big Kahuna in the next leadership election, that means that *two* of the four provinces will be run by him and the other member of his own (original, pre-CinnaBun Chair) bloodline.
There's like, a half-dozen possible permutations, spinning around.
It's like a ride!
Nobody takes his place in the bloodline. The previous kamraten takes his place as a provincial ruler. There are four provinces, and then there is the throne, these are the five positions of office that are swapped around.Sorry, but just to clarify;
Given that the 'Tiger Prince' is the current kamraten. When the decade plays out, one of the other four, lets say the Lady of Flowers, takes over the position of kamraten, and the Tiger Prince takes the place in the fey bloodline's province? Or does a specific provinces not have to align with a specific bloodline?
Sorry if I'm running in circles with this :U
Provinces have no direct connection to any bloodline. I would actually argue, based on my own interpretation of the following quote, that every 10 years all five spots in office are reelected among the same five rulers.
These five lords of surpassing prowess assume their offices together, selected via a complex process that takes place in the catacombs beneath the royal palace in Ramparassad.
So, all four provinces could also change ruler, assuming this process is the same one that determines the kamraten every 10 years, which isn't explicitly stated as the case.
I don't know if this is all correct, but it's what makes most sense to me.
It's like a ride!
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So, all four provinces could also change ruler, assuming this process is the same one that determines the kamraten every 10 years, which isn't explicitly stated as the case.
I don't know if this is all correct, but it's what makes most sense to me.
It's like a ride!
And now it does make sense. It's like musical chairs. All five of them rush around in a circle around four seats, and when the music stops, the dude left standing has to climb the stairs and sit on the Cinnamon Throne!
Provinces have no direct connection to any bloodline. I would actually argue, based on my own interpretation of the following quote, that every 10 years all five spots in office are reelected among the same five rulers.
These five lords of surpassing prowess assume their offices together, selected via a complex process that takes place in the catacombs beneath the royal palace in Ramparassad.So, all four provinces could also change ruler, assuming this process is the same one that determines the kamraten every 10 years, which isn't explicitly stated as the case.
I don't know if this is all correct, but it's what makes most sense to me.
While that would make sense, you are missing an important line
This eccentric succession continues until one member of the Five dies, whereupon he surviving lords work together to select a replacement from Dtang Ma’s most powerful sorcerers.
So the Five are set, and switch between themselves until one dies. At that point, they replace that one member.
In other words, it still doesn't make sense.
While that would make sense, you are missing an important line
This eccentric succession continues until one member of the Five dies, whereupon he surviving lords work together to select a replacement from Dtang Ma’s most powerful sorcerers.So the Five are set, and switch between themselves until one dies. At that point, they replace that one member.
In other words, it still doesn't make sense.
It still makes sense the way I understand it. Remember there is no guarantee that every bloodline will have a representative. So if the current kamraten is fey bloodline and tomorrow Lord of Bats(stormborn) dies then a third fey ruler could possibly be chosen to rule. Leaving no stormborn in power, only three bloodlines, and a very influential fey bloodline.
The strange feudal confederacy that rules Dtang Ma now is the same that ruled the land for well over a thousand years before it fell to Lung Wa. This confederacy is closely tied to four traditions of sorcerous power—magic from storms, magic from the fey, magic from music, and magic from the stars themselves, with a fifth supreme lord (kamraten) sitting on the Cinnamon Throne in the capital of Ramparassad, to whom the others owe unquestioned fealty.
In the same sentence it mentions the four traditions and refers to the "fifth supreme lord." I would take this to indicate that there must, at all times, be a lord of each bloodline. It wouldn't make sense otherwise, since no group of leaders has been mentioned other than "the four traditions," meaning that "others" wouldn't be referring back to anything.
You're right. This is why we need to know about the fifth bloodline mentioned in the timeline on p.16
Oh, and Let's assume that 'traditions of sorcerous power' and 'bloodline' are synonymous. If the fifth bloodline was once part of this confederacy(which your last quote may imply not) then the number of ruling bloodlines is not set in stone. However, it also states that the confederacy is "closely tied" to these bloodlines which I don't think suggests a permanent fixture. What if a bloodline is completely wiped out? That may be what happened to the fifth one.
At this point I'm making whatever assumptions will make it work for me.
I'm starting to think there was just a mistake in development or editing. The five sister's bloodlines became four + Cinnamon Throne, but the fact that the succession wouldn't make sense in that version just slipped through.
While the are ways we could work around it, with changing bloodlines and variable numbers, I'm afraid it would end up like explaining Han Solo's "12 parsec Kessel Run" with anything other than "George Lucas didn't know what a Parsec was."
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I would take this to indicate that there must, at all times, be a lord of each bloodline. It wouldn't make sense otherwise, since no group of leaders has been mentioned other than "the four traditions," meaning that "others" wouldn't be referring back to anything.
Which leads back to speculation on what this fifth bloodline might be, if there is one.
It might be a situation like the sub-domains being listed in a blog post before Goblins of Golarion came out, and Paizo not being quite ready to unveil the new 'Arson' subdomain and using a temporary fill-in. Instead of there not being a fifth bloodline, it's just being played close to the chest, because it's a new bloodline (Kami, Oni, etc.), or a new 'sub-bloodline' (modified Undead bloodline that taps into neutral spiritual energies, instead of evil undead ones, or a modified Dragon bloodline that is more strongly tied to the dragons of Tien, etc.).
I'd be inclined not to use Celestial (since there's already an aasimar-dominant nation) or Infernal / Abyssal (since the nation doesn't seem weighted towards evil, good, law *or* chaos) or Aberrant (possibly a bit too hentai for a ruling bloodline). Genie and Rakshasa bloodlines don't 'feel' right, to me, culturally. Serpentine and Shadow would, like Celestial, seem to be better covered in another nation, among the Nagaji or the Wayang.
Of the 'core' bloodlines, Draconic and Destined might fit best, as is, with a modified (Tien) Dragon or (Spirit or Ancestors) Undead bloodline also fitting.
Verdant could work, as could Dreamspun. Boreal, Aquatic and Deep Earth feel more regionally specific, and Dtang Ma doesn't seem much associated with the sea, cold winters or mining / the darklands.
A mashed up Elemental (Balance) Bloodline that covers the five elements of wood, metal, earth, water and fire could be funky. Either it could have a hodge-podge of powers relating to all five elements, or the sorcerer might choose an element to dedicate himself towards at the beginning of the day, and his abilities (and bonus spells) for the day would reflect his choice, with the caveat that he can never choose the same element two days in a row, as it would cause some terrible imbalance... Or it could be as simple as adding wood and metal options to the pre-existing Elemental Bloodline.
One of those four. We don't say which.
Any chance of a geographical layout of the four provinces or should I just hack them up however?