Guys guys! I have an addendum to the staff of crackling wrath craziness. Going by how APG prices stuff, it should actually be 25,200 gp. Why? It had to have been created by a witch. It's the only class that has all those spells in its spell list!
Even assuming all the numbers are based off of the witch progression (which really doesn't seem to change anything) I'm still coming up with 56,700gp market price and 28,350gp creation cost. It still doesn't add up, even when cut in half like the other APG staves.
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Hmm, then maybe you can help me because I'm relatively new at this pricing thing and my calculations come out as follows:
Cost of spell:
Baleful polymorph: (400*5*8)/2 = 8,000
Bestow curse: (300*3*8)/2 = 3,600
Vampiric touch: (200*3*8)/2 = 2,400
Inflict moderate: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Hold person: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Blindness/Deafness: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Charm Person: (200*1*8) = 1,600
TOTAL: 25,200 gp
My staff of hoarding also comes out different, so maybe I'm missing something here.
Bump and,...
I just FAQ'd this. I thought I had done it when it first came up.
Hmm, then maybe you can help me because I'm relatively new at this pricing thing and my calculations come out as follows:
Cost of spell:
Baleful polymorph: (400*5*8)/2 = 8,000
Bestow curse: (300*3*8)/2 = 3,600
Vampiric touch: (200*3*8)/2 = 2,400
Inflict moderate: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Hold person: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Blindness/Deafness: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Charm Person: (200*1*8) = 1,600TOTAL: 25,200 gp
My staff of hoarding also comes out different, so maybe I'm missing something here.
Baleful polymorph is a 5th-level spell, so the minimum caster level of the staff (for a witch) should be 9, not 8. That raises the creation costs to 28,350gp.
But if you are buying/commissioning it, then you have to pay the market price, which is double that, or 56,700gp.
I like the current system. Just needs to have lower prices. The APG error would be a perfect replacement for existing rules.
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Bump I hope we end up reducing the prices in the CRB.I hope they just simplify the whole thing and have uses per day.
For example using Pearls of Power as the basis for staff pricing would simplify it greatly. Say half the pearl price for each fixed spell once per day.
I happen to like the 10 charges with a recharge option, that way PCs can use the staff when needed then relax at the local tavern for some day, drink, relax and recharge their staffs.
The underlying calculation could be improved though.
Some ability to prepare spells from the staff, or spells prepared for spells slots would interesting in addition to the current mechanic.
That you a staff of fire would be a good choice when battling enemies vulnerable to fire - instead of a rather price blast stick.
But I am realistic, we probably won't get a change. The most likely outcome is that the APG prices are corrected, and that we might get some feats to make staffs cool.
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I also like the current system of staves having 10 charges that can be recharged. But the price discrepancy between the Core Rulebook and APG staves clearly needs to be corrected, and the formula needs to either stay the way it is or be corrected to the system which Paizo seems to be using more, which gives us lower-priced staves.
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Hmm, then maybe you can help me because I'm relatively new at this pricing thing and my calculations come out as follows:
Cost of spell:
Baleful polymorph: (400*5*8)/2 = 8,000
Bestow curse: (300*3*8)/2 = 3,600
Vampiric touch: (200*3*8)/2 = 2,400
Inflict moderate: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Hold person: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Blindness/Deafness: (200*2*8) = 3,200
Charm Person: (200*1*8) = 1,600TOTAL: 25,200 gp
My staff of hoarding also comes out different, so maybe I'm missing something here.
Baleful polymorph is a 5th-level spell, so the minimum caster level of the staff (for a witch) should be 9, not 8. That raises the creation costs to 28,350gp.
But if you are buying/commissioning it, then you have to pay the market price, which is double that, or 56,700gp.
Jeez my head asplode, indeed. You're right though.
Doesn't the caster level of all the spells in a staff have to be the same level? So wouldn't that staff have a CL of 9, not 8?
Master Arminas
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Guys I'm sorry but I figure if I don't ask I won't learn. What am I doing wrong with my calculations for the staff of hoarding? I'm getting this:
- Legend lore: (400*6*11)/3 = 8,800
* Materials: 250*50 = 12,500
* Focus: = 200
- Secret chest: (300*5*11)/2 = 8,250
* Focus: 5,050
- Locate object: 200*2*11 = 4,400
- Identify: 200*1*11 = 2,200
- Magic aura: 200*1*11 = 2,200
TOTAL: 43,600 gp
Guys I'm sorry but I figure if I don't ask I won't learn. What am I doing wrong with my calculations for the staff of hoarding? I'm getting this:
- Legend lore: (400*6*11)/3 = 8,800
* Materials: 250*50 = 12,500
* Focus: = 200
- Secret chest: (300*5*11)/2 = 8,250
* Focus: 5,050
- Locate object: 200*2*11 = 4,400
- Identify: 200*1*11 = 2,200
- Magic aura: 200*1*11 = 2,200TOTAL: 43,600 gp
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.)
Bolding mine. So you don't need to pay for the Foci (although with Secret Chest that seems wrong) and the cost for the materials is divided by the number of charges used. So you pay a lot less for Legend Lore's materials.
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You're right, I did miss that bold part.
However! I believe it still takes into account foci. The Staff of Abjuration in the core rulebook DOES factor in the 50 gp focus from repulsion in its cost, and doesn't divide it by the number of charges (but that's probably only specific to material components)
I believe what the text is saying is that you still factor in the focus into the cost, but it isn't destroyed and can be used again when creating another staff.
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Ok, this will be the last time I post about this, because it detracts from what this thread was originally written to do, report the error of staff prices.
I found out how they got the price for the staff of hoarding; the focus costs of all spells weren't calculated (meaning they did what khuldar mentioned, leaving them out). The fact that the core rulebook's staff of abjuration includes these focus costs, however, leads me to believe it's supposed to. They do NOT, get divided by the number of charges used to cast the spell, however, as material components do. The staff of hoarding's price (per the APG) would actually be 35,266 gp.
Bananas.
But if you are buying/commissioning it, then you have to pay the market price, which is double that, or 56,700gp.Unless of course the APG has the right of it, in which case market price would be 23,350 gp. and cost would be 14,175 gp.
One can only hope.
It's easiest to factor the material components directly into the calculation. This is how I've set up my excel spreadsheet to do the math for any given spell in a staff:
([multiplier x spell level x caster level] + [50 x material component cost]) / number of charges
This doesn't yield the same math, though. Take legend lore above.
([400x6x11] + [50 x 250]) / 3
DOES NOT yield the same result as:
([400x6x11]/3) + ([50 x 250)/3)
Um...yes they do. I just did the math for both calculations and came up with the exact same result.
Ok, this will be the last time I post about this, because it detracts from what this thread was originally written to do, report the error of staff prices.
I found out how they got the price for the staff of hoarding; the focus costs of all spells weren't calculated (meaning they did what khuldar mentioned, leaving them out). The fact that the core rulebook's staff of abjuration includes these focus costs, however, leads me to believe it's supposed to. They do NOT, get divided by the number of charges used to cast the spell, however, as material components do. The staff of hoarding's price (per the APG) would actually be 35,266 gp.
Bananas.
It would be really nice if they added in that bit of clarification into the FAQ or errata.
I happen to like the 10 charges with a recharge option, that way PCs can use the staff when needed then relax at the local tavern for some day, drink, relax and recharge their staffs.I really liked the runestaffs from Magic Item Compendium. Each runestaff has a list of spells much like regular staffs. Each of these can be used three times per day by an arcane caster with that spell on his spell list, but you need to expend a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You use your own caster level and whatever special abilities you have to improve spells, including metamagic (which requires that you spend a higher-level slot). You also need to provide any components and such yourself.
They're also significantly cheaper than regular staffs. For example, a regular Staff of Fire costs almost 18k, the runestaff 8,400 gp. A Staff of Illusion costs 65k, a runestaff 19k.
What's more they made great "heritage" items since you could give someone a runestaff at low level secure in the knowledge that they can't fully use it until they get to higher levels due to the lack of spell slots (but it was still useful in general for them).
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Guys, your calculations about the staff of shrieking is wrong. Your math is correct, however the only class that could craft such a staff is a bard. That means the CL should actually be 10, not 8, since that's what a bard would need to be at to cast a 4th level spell (shout).
This means the book calculated this wrong. It should be 18,000 gp.
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Vision - APG staff listing SHOULD be 45,916.67gp. Components? (You forgot the focus component of scry ZomB)I did generally omit focus costs, but not a significant cost.
I got 46,416 because the focus component DOES NOT get divided by the number of charges needed, only the material components do that (again I reference the staff of abjuration, whose 50-gp-focus component used for the repulsion spell is not divided by the 3 charges needed to cast it)
Guys, your calculations about the staff of shrieking is wrong. Your math is correct, however the only class that could craft such a staff is a bard. That means the CL should actually be 10, not 8, since that's what a bard would need to be at to cast a 4th level spell (shout).
This means the book calculated this wrong. It should be 18,000 gp.
Cleric could do it at level 9 with the destruction domain. Also two casters together could craft the staff at level 8.
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However! I believe it still takes into account foci. The Staff of Abjuration in the core rulebook DOES factor in the 50 gp focus from repulsion in its cost, and doesn't divide it by the number of charges (but that's probably only specific to material components)
I wouldn't base anything of one staff example as prices are highly inconsistent across the board. The book text seems clear enough that it doesn't get included.
EDIT: where are you getting the numbers that say it factors in the focus? All the "school" staves are priced at 82,000 gp (rounded up from 81,900) regardless of material components (I'm looking at you Staff of Divination/True Seeing). The staff of Abjuration is no exception.
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However! I believe it still takes into account foci. The Staff of Abjuration in the core rulebook DOES factor in the 50 gp focus from repulsion in its cost, and doesn't divide it by the number of charges (but that's probably only specific to material components)I wouldn't base anything of one staff example as prices are highly inconsistent across the board. The book text seems clear enough that it doesn't get included.
EDIT: where are you getting the numbers that say it factors in the focus? All the "school" staves are priced at 82,000 gp (rounded up from 81,900) regardless of material components (I'm looking at you Staff of Divination/True Seeing). The staff of Abjuration is no exception.
Staff of abjuration:
- Repulsion: (400*6*13)/3 = 10,400 + 50 (FOCUS)- Dismissal: (300*5*13)/2 = 9,750
- Less Glove of Invul: (200*4*13)/2 = 5,200
- Dispel Magic: (200*3*13) = 7,800
- Resist Energy: (200*2*13) = 5,200
- Shield: (200*1*13) = 2,600
10,400 + 50 + 9,750 + 5,200 + 7,800 + 5,200 + 2,600 = 41,000
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Cleric could do it at level 9 with the destruction domain. Also two casters together could craft the staff at level 8.Guys, your calculations about the staff of shrieking is wrong. Your math is correct, however the only class that could craft such a staff is a bard. That means the CL should actually be 10, not 8, since that's what a bard would need to be at to cast a 4th level spell (shout).
This means the book calculated this wrong. It should be 18,000 gp.
I didn't realize two casters could do that.
I didn't realize two casters could do that.Cleric could do it at level 9 with the destruction domain. Also two casters together could craft the staff at level 8.Guys, your calculations about the staff of shrieking is wrong. Your math is correct, however the only class that could craft such a staff is a bard. That means the CL should actually be 10, not 8, since that's what a bard would need to be at to cast a 4th level spell (shout).
This means the book calculated this wrong. It should be 18,000 gp.
Yeah it means two people are working on one item but technically as long as you have someone with you that can cast the spell you only need the feat involved.
This works for potions, scrolls and the like too. On the plus side it means casters can share the feat load -- on the down side it takes longer to craft items since you are jointly crafting.
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However! I believe it still takes into account foci. The Staff of Abjuration in the core rulebook DOES factor in the 50 gp focus from repulsion in its cost, and doesn't divide it by the number of charges (but that's probably only specific to material components)I wouldn't base anything of one staff example as prices are highly inconsistent across the board. The book text seems clear enough that it doesn't get included.
EDIT: where are you getting the numbers that say it factors in the focus? All the "school" staves are priced at 82,000 gp (rounded up from 81,900) regardless of material components (I'm looking at you Staff of Divination/True Seeing). The staff of Abjuration is no exception.
Staff of abjuration:
- Repulsion: (400*6*13)/3 = 10,400 + 50 (FOCUS)
- Dismissal: (300*5*13)/2 = 9,750
- Less Glove of Invul: (200*4*13)/2 = 5,200
- Dispel Magic: (200*3*13) = 7,800
- Resist Energy: (200*2*13) = 5,200
- Shield: (200*1*13) = 2,60010,400 + 50 + 9,750 + 5,200 + 7,800 + 5,200 + 2,600 = 41,000
Heh. My point was all the "school" staves are priced at this level regardless of foci or material components - they are rounded up - and the rounding amount just so happens to match the focus price of one spell on one of the school staves. It is not evidence of anything.
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Heh. My point was all the "school" staves are priced at this level regardless of foci or material components - they are rounded up - and the rounding amount just so happens to match the focus price of one spell on one of the school staves. It is not evidence of anything.However! I believe it still takes into account foci. The Staff of Abjuration in the core rulebook DOES factor in the 50 gp focus from repulsion in its cost, and doesn't divide it by the number of charges (but that's probably only specific to material components)I wouldn't base anything of one staff example as prices are highly inconsistent across the board. The book text seems clear enough that it doesn't get included.
EDIT: where are you getting the numbers that say it factors in the focus? All the "school" staves are priced at 82,000 gp (rounded up from 81,900) regardless of material components (I'm looking at you Staff of Divination/True Seeing). The staff of Abjuration is no exception.
Staff of abjuration:
- Repulsion: (400*6*13)/3 = 10,400 + 50 (FOCUS)
- Dismissal: (300*5*13)/2 = 9,750
- Less Glove of Invul: (200*4*13)/2 = 5,200
- Dispel Magic: (200*3*13) = 7,800
- Resist Energy: (200*2*13) = 5,200
- Shield: (200*1*13) = 2,60010,400 + 50 + 9,750 + 5,200 + 7,800 + 5,200 + 2,600 = 41,000
I very much stand corrected. I did the staff of abjuration and then stopped when it worked. Just did the conjuration staff and it's still 50 gp shy of hitting the cost mark. That really kind of bothers me that even the core staves don't adhere to the rules of pricing.
60+ FAQ's later....
Bump and FAQ'ed
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I just realized that if the APG staves are in error, fixing them will probably change Table 7-9: Staves on page 298 of the APG, where it gives d% rolls for randomly generating them. Their new, higher prices will make some, like the staff of slumber, no longer medium magic items.
It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a pricing discrepancy between magical spell staves in the Core Rulebook and in the Advanced Player's Guide. I'm looking to find out which is correct.
Wait, what?
You knew the APG staves were mostly borked back in March 2011, Ravingdork. We discussed it in great detail.
The link is instructive, and also has some auto-pricing tools in it to save the headache of replicating a lot of this work by hand. Also, we did a dozen or so price checks in the thread you can go back and look at.
And yet another notch gets added onto my reputation board for "bad memory." It's kind of one of the things I'm know for. :P
Well, there are a crampton of things wrong with the pathfinder item crafting system that need to be fixed. We've already had an extensive discussion about how a properly built 2nd level crafting character can open a Gate to the Abyss for a few thousand gp. The only way to really fix it is to scrap it and start over.
I've often thought about doing just that, building a system that makes sense, and releasing it as a 3rd party add-on. Think anyone would buy it?
Also, lol RD. :)
Sorry if I'm not going to carry on with such a defeatist attitude, beej67. I really do believe that staves, at least, CAN be fixed.
Also, what's this crafting loophole you're going on about? I don't see how anything like that would be possible with even a half-brained GM. Does it involve homebrew magic items? "Gloves of true striking" and the like do NOT follow magic item creation guidelines despite what players will tell you and need to be approved by the GM first (after he's compared them to existing magic items).
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However weird the crafting rules may or may not be, it seems like correcting the prices of a few magic items so they're in line with the formula (or correcting the formula so it's in line with what Paizo wants to use), would be a comparatively simple errata that wouldn't require all of the magic item rules to change.
Sorry if I'm not going to carry on with such a defeatist attitude, beej67. I really do believe that staves, at least, CAN be fixed.
Sure they can.. ..ish. Go figure them all by hand and check which ones were done wrong. We did that for all the APG stuff in the above linked thread. I haven't checked any new stuff in further releases yet.
Where it really needs "fixing" isn't necessarily the prices in the book, but in custom staff creation. There are vast avenues for min/max once you take a close look at the staff creation rules, where you can actually decrease the cost of your staff by adding things / etc. It's wonky.
Also, what's this crafting loophole you're going on about? I don't see how anything like that would be possible with even a half-brained GM. Does it involve homebrew magic items?
Candle of Invocation, combined with the Paizo ruling that Item Caster Level and spell prereqs can both be bypassed with a spellcraft roll, and that you can take 10 on the roll.
According to errata, a properly built 3rd level character can craft any item in the book if they have the money. Crafting is broken unless the GM beats it with the ban hammer. We had to majorly houserule it in my game.
Of course a GM can nyx anything the GM wants. It is frustrating for some players, particularly in games like mine where we rotate the GM, to have to continually do that though, because what one GM would allow another GM wouldn't, and we'd like to have a sensible core rule to fall back on.
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After looking at some of the threads linked above, I've decided to compromise a bit. After 75 FAQs so far and no developer input, I'll concede that we'll probably never see an update to each individual stave's price. I would still like to hear an official response on the APG's staves being priced from creation cost, and then cost determined from dividing that number by two, instead of the way the CRB does it.
BUMP. Just because this is an old argument doesn't make it not important.
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Keep in mind also that you need to account for the caster level needed to cast the highest level spell in the staff, including adjustments made for metamagic. (such as heighten in the Staff of Power). You also need to add appropriate pricing for any abilities beyond the "spellscasting in a stick" feature.
The level 8 minimum caster level only seems to be there to reduce overlap with wands.
Sometimes, though, adding additional pricing to such features is impossible with no rules to go by. For instance, how do you price the exploding self destruct ability of a staff of power?
Sometimes, though, adding additional pricing to such features is impossible with no rules to go by. For instance, how do you price the exploding self destruct ability of a staff of power?
Everything in the Staff of Power except for the Retributive Strike and the double-damage thing can be figured out with pricing formulas. So work out the price of everything you know how, and whatever you've got left is the value of the stuff you don't. Obvious reasoning perhaps, but there it is.