Ex-pally / rogue: Terrible idea?


Advice


long story short, her father's hold employed almost exclusively holy soldiers and, being the youngest of 12, she was often overlooked which gave her a chance to train with the blademasters. Realizing that nobody would have her as she had no claim to her house and was no longer a maiden, she swore an oath in front of her father's gods and the court never to marry and ran off, going rogue so to speak. Travelling all across the world and assimilating into every imaginable culture, she became something of a con-artist. Although her heart remained good and kind, the deception and sin that formed the backbone of her new life meant she was no longer the paladin she once was.

soo.... how bad an idea is a rogue/ex-paladin?


jazzchicken wrote:

long story short, her father's hold employed almost exclusively holy soldiers and, being the youngest of 12, she was often overlooked which gave her a chance to train with the blademasters. Realizing that nobody would have her as she had no claim to her house and was no longer a maiden, she swore an oath in front of her father's gods and the court never to marry and ran off, going rogue so to speak. Travelling all across the world and assimilating into every imaginable culture, she became something of a con-artist. Although her heart remained good and kind, the deception and sin that formed the backbone of her new life meant she was no longer the paladin she once was.

soo.... how bad an idea is a rogue/ex-paladin?

Paladin 2/rogue X isn't a bad build. It's not OMG optimized or anything, but the extra 2 BAB, save bonuses, and weapon proficiencies are nothing to sneer at. I'd actually suggest paladin/ninja though, as the charisma from paladin feeds very nicely into the ninja's ki pool. The lay on hands is also rather nice, if very limited, healing.


Melissa Litwin wrote:
jazzchicken wrote:

long story short, her father's hold employed almost exclusively holy soldiers and, being the youngest of 12, she was often overlooked which gave her a chance to train with the blademasters. Realizing that nobody would have her as she had no claim to her house and was no longer a maiden, she swore an oath in front of her father's gods and the court never to marry and ran off, going rogue so to speak. Travelling all across the world and assimilating into every imaginable culture, she became something of a con-artist. Although her heart remained good and kind, the deception and sin that formed the backbone of her new life meant she was no longer the paladin she once was.

soo.... how bad an idea is a rogue/ex-paladin?

Paladin 2/rogue X isn't a bad build. It's not OMG optimized or anything, but the extra 2 BAB, save bonuses, and weapon proficiencies are nothing to sneer at. I'd actually suggest paladin/ninja though, as the charisma from paladin feeds very nicely into the ninja's ki pool. The lay on hands is also rather nice, if very limited, healing.

This characters wont get paladin class features; just the BAB and better-than-fighter saves. (Unless I've misinterpreted)

Its not terrible, but I personally think that Fighter-Rogue with that backstory might be mechanically slightly better (loses 1 will save if one of the two bonus feats covers for iron will, gains a bonus feat).

If its just ONE level and not two though, Paladin 1/Rogue X is pretty awesome if you are planning on taking Iron Will at some point.

Liberty's Edge

There are worse things, but there are much, much better. Why not use fighter, or cavalier, to represent "Ex-paladin"?


KrispyXIV wrote:
This characters wont get paladin class features; just the BAB and better-than-fighter saves.

Hmm, good point. Ex-paladin is pretty terrible. A paladin/ninja is pretty cool; an ex-paladin/ninja just sucks. I should read the OP more carefully next time :/.

Agreed, fighter would work much better mechanically and would cover learning the bladework, but not the ethics, of the paladin.

Lantern Lodge

To OP. If she swore "an oath in front of her father's gods", doesn't that means she still worship those gods?

Being a Paladin would requires that she get accepted into a church of a Deity. You state that she is "often overlooked which gave her a chance to train with the blademasters". Won't it make more sense if she was train as a fighter? May be even a specific Archetype?

From what is stated about her life, it seems like she was never "involved" with her family. So how could she become a Paladin? A role that requires quite a bit of participation and training with other paladins/cleric/religions people. (Of whom a number is sure to be her family members.)


You could go with Inquisitor/Rogue gives you the holy warrior background without the complete worthlessness problem of being a fallen paladin and as long as you don't play like a Spanish Inquisitor you can still have a good heart etc. and you could have become an Inquisitor after being shipped off to the nunnery after the first time you disobeyed your father.

Liberty's Edge

I'd totally recommend against this...Unless...
Do you plan on becoming a redeemed paladin later? Not necessarily rejoining your family's faith, but finding a new cause to support that would bring you back on the path of righteousness later in your career? if so, I think its a brilliant idea, provided you survive long enough to actually pull it off, and you really do want to take more levels as a Paladin later.

Otherwise, mechanically your better with fighter.

Or if your looking for something with a closer to a paladin's flavor you could look at cavalier. There is absolutely no reason why your con artist rogue wouldn't have stolen her favorite pet horse as she left her family behind forever. The horse then became the silent supportive family replacement. Furthermore, it would've filled the roles of earned blade work and honorable family traditions. You could even take levels in bard and roleplay a conartist that way, which could lead to a useful battle herald prestige class much later in life. I think this might be cool because you'd end up completely meshing your life long training in your family's abode with your experience earned adventuring out into the real world.


Roleplaying wise, the idea is pretty awesome. If you have a decent DM who isn't all about messing over PCs, this is still a very playable character.


I think it is a great idea with 1 exception, the backstory would have to change a bit to show how she would have become a paladin... many in this world believe and pray to gods, even take oaths to them, but that doesn't make them holy servants... I would say fighter or inquisitor are better options for the story presented as well.


Zephyre Al'dran wrote:

I'd totally recommend against this...Unless...

Do you plan on becoming a redeemed paladin later? Not necessarily rejoining your family's faith, but finding a new cause to support that would bring you back on the path of righteousness later in your career? if so, I think its a brilliant idea, provided you survive long enough to actually pull it off, and you really do want to take more levels as a Paladin later.

Well the way I was planning on taking her, she was going to live out her days as a chaotic neutral so if I decide to make her righteous again I'd have to come up with a storyline twist... could work though


Stubs McKenzie wrote:
I think it is a great idea with 1 exception, the backstory would have to change a bit to show how she would have become a paladin... many in this world believe and pray to gods, even take oaths to them, but that doesn't make them holy servants... I would say fighter or inquisitor are better options for the story presented as well.

this is true; what I was thinking was that her father raised every child to fight in the name of their household deity and they were all educated by monks and nuns. Some were even shipped off to live a few years in monasteries rather than squiring for other lords, etc.

but yeah, I'm thinking I'll roll fighter/rogue now


The only thing you get is your hd and your bab from the paladin. Personally I wouldn't do it I would rather dip inquisitor for similar flavor and not lose class features. However if you really want to go right ahead.

Shadow Lodge

You can be an ex-paladin without any paladin levels.


Take levels of fighter. Worship gods. call yourself an ex-paladin. You dont actually need paladin levels to be a holy warrior

Dark Archive

You're making a strictly worse fighter. You could have the same backstory and fighter levels and nobody would call "foul"; cavalier levels may be even more appropriate.


Another Cavalier vote. You could even take that Low Templar Prestige class if you wanted.

Not sure how good it is, but it looked interesting.


Thalin wrote:
You're making a strictly worse fighter. You could have the same backstory and fighter levels and nobody would call "foul"; cavalier levels may be even more appropriate.

This isn't necessarily true; the paladin has a +2 to will saves at the expense of what, a bonus feat?

Dark Archive

+3 will saves; 2 bonus feats and bravery (or whatever you replace bravery with in your kit, more than likely). It's a bad trade; you can get +3 will +1 Ref +1 fort if that's the route you wanted to go, and still have bravery for what that is worth.

Edit: ah, you're talking about 1 level. I guess you are right; if it's only 1 level you're a fighter with your feat as iron will. Fair enough, it's a fine tradeoff with 1 level.


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TOZ wrote:
You can be an ex-paladin without any paladin levels.

That is what I would do; take fighter/rogue; go into Paladin if/when redeemed.

Liberty's Edge

Assuming you have decent charisma, paladin/rogue is a fantastic combination. If you're mostly "face" rogue, the addition of two pally trades one talent and one sneak-dice for all martial proficiencies, almost unbeatable saves, and the ability to really deck something evil once/day. Ability to use a few arcane items withou UMD checks a minor bonus.

If your mostly paladin, dipping rogue2 gives you a wealth of skills and Evasion in exchange for BAB-1.


Yeah, depends a lot on whether you continue to be LG or not.

I think you said not, but talk about it with your DM and see if there's some fluff way you can keep limited Pally abilities (like maybe the Lay on Hands, but not the Smite or Detect since you've lost LG), and you can get them back when you return to LG.

If you were going "face", then this is a really cool concept and interesting character. To redeem oneself is an interesting hook if done properly.

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