Hey all, I'm starting my own homebrew game next week and had a fun idea of some casters they could fight.
it would be 3 level 10 wizards (transmutation school) plus their minons.
It would be against 4 or 5 level 8 PCS.
Anyways, i was wondering if its legal if at the start of the combat if the wizards all unloaded 20 large sized greatswords each from bags of holding. Then use Telekinesis on their turn to thrust 16 (the limit from their CL) of them at the PCS. with a +5 BAB and +4 INT, thats a +9 to hit. each greatsword would do 3d6 damage, so if say the fighter just charged the wizards they would all use it on her doing a total of...144d6 damage if they hit.
My question is, is this legal per RAW?
Greatswords only do 2d6 normally and a +9 hit isn't very accurate. Assuming that your PCs actually have an AC worth talking about, most of those should simply fail to hit.
Why are all the wizards auto going first?
Good luck keeping 20 unsheathed greatswords in a bag of holding without piercing it. :p
Greatswords only do 2d6 normally and a +9 hit isn't very accurate. Assuming that your PCs actually have an AC worth talking about, most of those should simply fail to hit.
Large sized greatswords however (for those who read the OP) do 3d6.
if the whole "its going to put a hole in the bag" thing is such a concern, they each have a cover and instead of 16 they raise 15 and take their covers off as part of the action.
No one answered my question by the way.
by the way, the party is mostly 3/4ths BAB and casters, so their AC wont be amazing. I dont think anyone is even wearing heavy armor, so yeah, there is a 50% chance or higher of them getting hit.
Although legal, this tactic is blatent cheese. Surely you can think of some better way to use THREE 10th-level wizards (and their MINIONS!) ganging up on FOUR to FIVE 8th-level PCs. And I do hope that you realize this is a fight well above their CR? If played right, your player character's are dead.
Master Arminas
how is it cheese? im using the spell as its written to do something it clearly says you can do. The Pc's might be higher level then 8, thats just what they are currently, and these people are part of a quest that can be done now, or in 2-12 levels from now. it might be less then 3 wizards, i was just brainstorming but mainly asking if it was legal.
Although legal, this tactic is blatent cheese. Surely you can think of some better way to use THREE 10th-level wizards (and their MINIONS!) ganging up on FOUR to FIVE 8th-level PCs. And I do hope that you realize this is a fight well above their CR? If played right, your player character's are dead.
Master Arminas
5 x Lvl 8 PCs = APL 9
3 x Lvl 10 NPCs with class levels & no racial hit dice = CR 12Appropriate minions = at least CR 6 unless they are super-mooks at CR 3
Estimated CR = 15-19
That is at least 3-5 magnitudes of order beyond an Epic challenge according to the core rules.
Bottom line: this encounter is super unbalanced and will end in PC road pizza.
At least make sure to spread out the greatswords, as this will definitely slay the party caster if they are all aimed at them.
But still, three level 10 wizards. WIZARDS.
how is it cheese? im using the spell as its written to do something it clearly says you can do. The Pc's might be higher level then 8, thats just what they are currently, and these people are part of a quest that can be done now, or in 2-12 levels from now. it might be less then 3 wizards, i was just brainstorming but mainly asking if it was legal.
Have you seen The Empire Strikes Back? Attack of the Clones? Revenge of the Sith? That is what the use of telekinesis is supposed to represent. Hauling around twenty large greatswords (at sixteen pounds a pop, or three hundred and twenty lbs overall) specifically for this tactic is quite ridiculous in my opinion and is something that stinks like munster.
Be that as it may be, it is, by the rules as written, legal.
Master Arminas
They aren't going in unprepared to what they are facing, the whole quest line involves telekinesis type stuff. The room they go into will have ample cover and the minons will be around CR 4. Of course im not going to just insta gank a caster with 15 greatswords round one. The party does have casters, and darkness isn't a hard spell to cast to give them all a 20% dodge chance. or a fog spell inbetween the casters and them to give them no chance of being hit. I know this challenge is impossible in a open field at level 8, but the set up of the room will lower it by 2 or 3 if they play with even a tiny bit of tactics. if they play it smart it shouldnt be too hard (moving from cover to cover, using a longbow would outrange their 5TH level spell.)
|
Hey all, I'm starting my own homebrew game next week and had a fun idea of some casters they could fight.
it would be 3 level 10 wizards (transmutation school) plus their minons.
It would be against 4 or 5 level 8 PCS.Anyways, i was wondering if its legal if at the start of the combat if the wizards all unloaded 20 large sized greatswords each from bags of holding. Then use Telekinesis on their turn to thrust 16 (the limit from their CL) of them at the PCS. with a +5 BAB and +4 INT, thats a +9 to hit. each greatsword would do 3d6 damage, so if say the fighter just charged the wizards they would all use it on her doing a total of...144d6 damage if they hit.
My question is, is this legal per RAW?
It sounds legal. Here are the problems with this being a good option.
1) Standard action to empty out the bag of holding (based on activating a magic item) + probably a move action to take the bag off so you can dump it.
2) All the swords need scabbards. Telekinesis will throw the weapon + scabbard making it more like a large club than a great sword. Telekinesis cannot be assumed to pull the weapon out of its scabbard.
3) Removing a scabbard is gonna take one round per scabbard. Move action to pick it up. Another move action to take it out. Free action to drop it again. That is a lot of actions to waste.
4) The violent thrust method you are using is of an instantaneous duration which means holding it to wait for the fighter to charge is not an option you have to use it the round you cast it.
If you just used large clubs or large heavy maces you might be better off.
honestly greatswords was just an example, it would be any weapon.
if the whole "its going to put a hole in the bag" thing is such a concern, they each have a cover and instead of 16 they raise 15 and take their covers off as part of the action.
Unsheathing all 15 with telekinesis would not be possible; the violent thrust use of the spell would not allow unsheathing, as it's only use is to hurl objects (no fine manipulation beforehand). I suppose you could rule that with the first casting they can hurl the covers off of the swords, then hurl the swords with a second casting the next round, though "realistically" all the swords would have to be pointing the same direction or else end up semi-scattered due to spinning when their covers are ripped off. At least this two round progression would have the added bonus of giving the PCs an inkling of what they're in for and a chance to grab some cover.
My main concern logistically would be all the swords being within 10 feet of each other. This means the two swords farthest apart are only 10 feet apart. When dumping 15 large two-handed swords out of an extra-dimensional space in a bit of a hurry, I really don't see them landing and coming to rest within the same 10' x 10' square. Though there's no rules that I'm aware of governing the landing space when a bag of holding is turned inside out, it just seems unlikely to me. Also, I think they wouldn't all be the proper distance if the covers were ripped off without arranging them correctly first (as above), which I don't see happening when the bag is emptied.
I think your best bet for this tactic is to have the wizards' flunkies carrying around the uncovered swords, which they all then deposit within the same 10' x 10' squares for the wizards before drawing out their real weapons. Also note that if the flunkies are placing themselves between the wizards and the PCs they'll be providing a cover bonus to the PCs' ACs unless the wizards and swords are on higher ground or somesuch.
-ninja'd- EDIT [see much less trouble with blunt weapons, but still the problem of all being within the same 10'x10' square post emptying]
|
|
honestly greatswords was just an example, it would be any weapon.
Taking large maces their actions would be:
Round 1: Take off bag the dump it out.
Round 2: Cast telekinesis and make smashy smashy with the maces.
Round 3: If one wizard hit one target with all his weapons he can pick them up and do it again with telekinesis.
Cheese Factor: it does feel like cheese if you spring it on your players.
Some suggestions:
If the characters are chasing these fellows maybe they find a couple bodies that have been beaten to death in such a fashion. Maybe a witness gives them a clue. "I saw this fellow dump 50 maces on ground in front of a magicky lookin' fella. I ran but I heard what sounded like a man getting beaten to death. Reminded me of when the Duke killed old Robert in the town square with a club. Terrible thing that."
Maybe they track the wizards down to their lair. Every room has tons of maces and swords and great clubs on the wall. Here and there they find a blood stain.
Greatswords only do 2d6 normally and a +9 hit isn't very accurate. Assuming that your PCs actually have an AC worth talking about, most of those should simply fail to hit.Large sized greatswords however (for those who read the OP) do 3d6.
Oh, silly me, I missed it.
Why are all the wizards auto going first?
It's called an ambush.
Thats kinda what i was thinking. They arent just going to randomly encointer these people. They are going to be at their lair and its goong to be very obivoius what they will be up against.
|
I don't think you're going to get normal weapon damage with swords using the violent thrust option. Contrary to what the movies would have you believe, a greatsword is really not that aerodynamic. What you're going to get isn't 15 seperate sword thrusts. It's more like an area getting hit with a couple hundred pounds of sharp metal.
To that point, just skip the whole bag of holding/sword thing. Set this encounter in a forge, and just throw sharp chunks of metal at them. Better still. Hurl blobs of moten metal at them!
Probably still gonna be a TPK though unless you give the PC's a LOT of warning/cover, and they use good tactics.
My question is, is this legal per RAW?
No.
Do the rules say that you can't throw a bunch of huge mithral greatswords and do 266d6 with a 5th level spell?
No, but they really don't need to. There is text in the spell description that fairly specifically limits it to 15d6.
If a player wanted to push the limits, I would first apply a non-proficiency penalty, then start adding penalties for using weapons that are the wrong size. You could also add a penalty for throwing a melee weapon, not to mention that thrown melee weapons have 10' range increments (up to five) and always crit X2 on a twenty. Finally, "Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action." The "Violent Thrust" use of telekinesis is instantaneous, therefore, the rules say you can only throw ranged weapons.
And don't forget cover and firing into melee...
If all of that sounds like a lame stretching of the rules to limit a spell, just use the spell to deal 1d6 per object, (or 1d8) if you want to lug a bunch of weapons around.
You can also use the 8th level Artifice domain ability to grant a weapon the dancing quality. There are no size limits, so I would imagine there are some battleship size warhammers sitting around in the temples of Torag...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner).Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell.
throwing greatswords with telekinesis is just....well stupid, however had it been 15 shurikens id be all for it.
Shurikens should have poison on them for extra cruelty.
Nothing says fun like 15 fortitude saves hehe
Dotted
There are more creative things to do with telekinesis. The aforementioned "throwing molten metal at them" was a good start. Just because weapons do their damage doesn't mean they are the best option.
Do you know how big a 25 pound vial of acid is? Do you know how annoying it is to have 10 flaming skeletons thrown at your face? Or how annoying it is to be thrown into a deadly pit?
Throwing weapons sounds cinematic, but is more like a last resort for telekinesis users. And it's better done throwing the enemy's weapons away, if not the enemy himself.
Also, how do you get them thrusting 16 swords? It's 1 object per level, maximum 15.
It's called an ambush.
That doesn't follow. Someone already described that during the suprise round the wizards would have to be dumping the swords. Next round the players can close in unless every wizard wins initiative.
If the weapons are laying around, then you could have 3 wizards leap out and pow, but that will probably be a TPK or a death all with no chance to counter or even notice? Cheaaaaap.
It's called an ambush.That doesn't follow. Someone already described that during the suprise round the wizards would have to be dumping the swords. Next round the players can close in unless every wizard wins initiative.
If the weapons are laying around, then you could have 3 wizards leap out and pow, but that will probably be a TPK or a death all with no chance to counter or even notice? Cheaaaaap.
That would be because that person isn't thinking the ambush through properly, the surprise round should be spent flinging swords, not digging them out of a bag. That said, this is still highly ineffectual against most PCs at level 8, assuming WBL characters, they should have something on the order of 24-26 AC, this means that only 1/4th of those swords will hit, dropping it from a staggering 144d6 to 36d6, which will probably be split up amongst multiple characters, and if it isn't that one character is probably dead.
|
|
Really pulling them out of anything is just bad encounter design. Where is this battle going to be set? If the wizards are controlling the time and place of the battle then you should DESIGN the encounter in an area where lots of dangerous objects are lying about.
For example the head Transmuter is from a noble family renowned for their military might or they are merchants who deal in arms and armor. Weapons of all kinds hang from the walls of their estate, especially in the great hall. Now you have an encounter area where the flavor text and set dressing can open up this tactic! Throw in some pillars for cover, perhaps a balcony where the wiazrds are perched and you have an interesting encounter where the cheese factor is hidden by the Mise-en-scène
--Vrocket Launcher Tag
That's a pathetic tactic to kill things.
5 x Lvl 8 PCs = APL 9
3 x Lvl 10 NPCs with class levels & no racial hit dice = CR 12
Appropriate minions = at least CR 6 unless they are super-mooks at CR 3Estimated CR = 15-19
That is at least 3-5 magnitudes of order beyond an Epic challenge according to the core rules.
Bottom line: this encounter is super unbalanced and will end in PC road pizza.
I have a really hard time figuring out how you arrived at the CR=15-19 number.. As you said, the 3 wizards make for a CR 12. Mooks would typically be far lower level than the wizards themselves, and would likely not add more than +1 to the total CR (assuming the mooks are worth around CR 9 in total, which would for instance be the case for 4 CR 5 mooks, or 8 CR 3 mooks).
In my estimation, this encounter would be CR 13 at most, with a successful ambush adding to that number.
It would still be a very difficult encounter, and may very well lead to several party deaths, but it's not as high as CR 15-19.
5 x Lvl 8 PCs = APL 9
3 x Lvl 10 NPCs with class levels & no racial hit dice = CR 12
Appropriate minions = at least CR 6 unless they are super-mooks at CR 3Estimated CR = 15-19
That is at least 3-5 magnitudes of order beyond an Epic challenge according to the core rules.
Bottom line: this encounter is super unbalanced and will end in PC road pizza.
I have a really hard time figuring out how you arrived at the CR=15-19 number.. As you said, the 3 wizards make for a CR 12. Mooks would typically be far lower level than the wizards themselves, and would likely not add more than +1 to the total CR (assuming the mooks are worth around CR 9 in total, which would for instance be the case for 4 CR 5 mooks, or 8 CR 3 mooks).
In my estimation, this encounter would be CR 13 at most, with a successful ambush adding to that number.
It would still be a very difficult encounter, and may very well lead to several party deaths, but it's not as high as CR 15-19.
Sorry, shoulda been more clear; I was estimating the mooks would be at about 1/3 in level to the 'main' villains. Seeing the difficulty level of the wizards, having a total CR 1 for the mooks doesn't make sense to me --- but --- whatever! It's all theoretical anyway.
In any event, a CR 13 encounter for an APL 9 will probably end badly for the PCs, unless it's mismanaged by the DM. Even by your reckoning, CR 13 is 2 steps beyond an 'Epic' challenge.
Picture this- The three wizards have clouds of floating stones orbiting their heads.
One by one they break off and go shooting towards the PCs, each doing 1d6 dam (large slingstones).
It gives you the same effect (but at 45 attacks of 1d6).
It can occur during the suprise round.
And if your projectiles are burnt out ioun stones (grey?) with the Returning enchantment, you automatically reload.
(Just give your telekinesis specialized wizards the ability to enchant Returning without the base +1 to "sling stones". Note that Telekinesis is the spell required to enchant Returning.)
You trade off the greater damamge from the large greatswords for less cheesy sling stones, but you can repeat each round as the PCs attack.
Bonus points to PCs who realize they can grab the stones (though it will be more effective to attack the wizards- except there's all those mooks between them.)
Prestidigation can make the stones multicolored and glowy to freak out the players.
Picture this- The three wizards have clouds of floating stones orbiting their heads.
One by one they break off and go shooting towards the PCs, each doing 1d6 dam (large slingstones).
It gives you the same effect (but at 45 attacks of 1d6).
It can occur during the suprise round.
And if your projectiles are burnt out ioun stones (grey?) with the Returning enchantment, you automatically reload.
(Just give your telekinesis specialized wizards the ability to enchant Returning without the base +1 to "sling stones". Note that Telekinesis is the spell required to enchant Returning.)
You trade off the greater damamge from the large greatswords for less cheesy sling stones, but you can repeat each round as the PCs attack.
Bonus points to PCs who realize they can grab the stones (though it will be more effective to attack the wizards- except there's all those mooks between them.)
Prestidigation can make the stones multicolored and glowy to freak out the players.
I actually REALLY like that idea. I think I might have to introduce a minor villain into my next Kingmaker module that's like this...and have it resolve in the one after that.
There is another thread called "telekinetic cheese" (im at work so i dont have much time to find it) that uses TK and shrink item, say a ten foot bolder shrunk to the size of a sling stone hurled and at the command word, mid-flight, gits big and smashes into the party. Then the wizards has a bolder they can roll around onto people.
And its 1 object per CL. At level ten thats only ten objects.
Not 15.
There is another thread called "telekinetic cheese" (im at work so i dont have much time to find it) that uses TK and shrink item, say a ten foot bolder shrunk to the size of a sling stone hurled and at the command word, mid-flight, gits big and smashes into the party. Then the wizards has a bolder they can roll around onto people.
And its 1 object per CL. At level ten thats only ten objects.
Not 15.
Link? That sounds funny.
And if your projectiles are burnt out ioun stones (grey?) with the Returning enchantment, you automatically reload. (Just give your telekinesis specialized wizards the ability to enchant Returning without the base +1 to "sling stones".)
Maybe I'm missing something, but why is it necessary for the projectiles to return to the caster before being violently thrusted a second time? Since telekinesis is a long range spell it hardly matters where the projectiles are in relation to the caster (as long as they're all near each other) when he casts the telekinesis spell on subsequent rounds.
Hey all, I'm starting my own homebrew game next week and had a fun idea of some casters they could fight.
My question is, is this legal per RAW?
Its significantly less dangerous than a single Wizard casting Wall of Sound adjacent to the party and his familiar dumping a bag of holding full of marbles into it from above, if killing the party is what you're going for.
If not, sure, why not? It will look cool, and you're the GM!