In another discussion on these boards, we got to talking about converting the UA battle sorcerer to Pathfinder. Well, here is my take. It is short, simple, and to the point and serves as a Sorcerer archetype, rather than a new class. Hope you enjoy it!
Master Arminas
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium
Good Saves: Will
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A battle sorcerer is proficient in all simple weapons and with one martial weapon of his choice. He is proficient in light armor, but not with medium or heavy armor, or with any type of shield. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in medium or heavy armor or when using any type of shield.
Spells: A battle sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn from the battle sorcerer spell list (see below). To cast a spell, a battle sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a battle sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the battle sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a battle sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A battle sorcerer’s selection of spells in extremely limited. A battle sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of his choice. At each new battle sorcerer table, he gains one or more new spells, as per the Sorcerer class. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the number shown are fixed.)
Upon reaching 4th-level, and every even-numbered battle sorcerer level after that, a battle sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the battle sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A battle sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or cleric, a battle sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can use any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Cantrips: Battle sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted in the Sorcerer class description. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they not consume any slots and may be used again.
Eschew Materials: A battle sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus at feat at 1st level.
Battle Caster: At 7th level, a battle sorcerer gains Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light and medium armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in heavy armor or when using any type of shield.
Spell Critical: At 16th level, whenever a battle sorcerer successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The spell chosen must be one that the battle sorcerer could normally apply the Quicken Spell feat to (and thus consumes a spell slot equal to the spell cast + 4 levels). The battle sorcerer need not possess the quicken spell feat in order to use this ability.
Notes: The battle sorcerer does not gain a bloodline or any of its benefits, including bonus skills, feats, arcana, spell known, and bloodline powers. This is pretty much a straight conversion of the UA Battle Sorcerer variant class. I have only added Battle Caster and Spell Critical as additional abilities. I also did not remove Bluff as a class skill, since the Pathfinder Sorcerer already possesses Intimidate as a class skill.
The original battle sorcerer is intended to be balanced against the 3.5 sorceror. The class abilities basically were paid for by 1 less spell known per level.
Now, you've given them the same spell capabilities.
So, the only comparison is class special abilities.
d8 HD and medium BAB
Ability to wear light armor, 1 martial weapon.
Eschew Materials.
wear medium armor
and spell critical
are equal to giving up ALL of the powers of a bloodline?
While this is a decent gish class, and would certainly serve well as an EK (it gives up next to nothing to go into Eldritch KNight, and gains BAB), it falls into the 'doesn't gain a lot of stuff except spells as it levels).
I'd basically call this the entry class for the Eldritch Knight, and pretty much call it a day.
===Aelryinth
The original gave up 1 spell slot per day (per level) and 1 spell known (per level) from medium BAB, a hit die two steps greater, light armor proficiency, one martial weapon proficiency, and the ability to cast in light armor.
This one gives up all the blood line arcana, powers, skills, feats, and spells known for medium BAB, a hit die one step greater, light armor proficiency, one martial weapon proficiency, and the ability to cast in light armor. It still has one less spell known at each spell level (except for 0-level spells), but gains medium armor proficiency (and the ability to cast in medium armor at 7th level) and spell critical at 16th level.
I guess we could reduce the spell slots per day by 1 for each level as well if you think it is too much. But, at first glance, it seemed a pretty straight-forward conversion to me.
Yes, I'm sure there are some folks who would want to go into EK from this, but they would still have to take a level of fighter, ranger, or barbarian to get ALL martial weapon proficiencies to qualify, so it would lose the same two levels of spell-casting, in exchange for a final BAB of +17 (instead of +15) [Battle Sorcerer 9, Fighter 1, EK 10], with final base saves of +10, +6, +9. The slightly larger hit die would give this EK an average of 9 more hit points than a normal wiz/sorcerer EK.
Master Arminas
If they keep the bloodline spells and arcana, then it sacrifices very little for the bump in BAB and Hit Die. I would be hesitant to allow that. But, that is only my opinion.
Master Arminas
I gave my version the bloodlines, kept it to light armor, but allowed use of a feat to allow it to use medium armor. I also allowed it to use 2 martial weapons.
We have a feral kobold battle sorcerer in our party. It has +3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Will, 1d8 HD, proficient in all simple weapons and 1 martial weapon, light armor, can cast in light armor, and full bloodline access, but casts 1 less spell per level per day, and knows 1 less spell per level (minimum 1). It seems really balanced with the party we have (battle sorcerer, dragon shaman, and archer ranger). He uses mostly natural weapons, so he can go claw/claw/claw (haste and/or feat for 3rd claw attack)/bite/tail/(wing/wing when in dragon form). Really effective with 3.5 wraithstrike spell (swift action to cast, for 1 round, resolve all melee attacks as melee touch attacks).
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What I would suggest is, if you want a battle sorcerer, use the Magus class.
Change it's spellcasting stat to CHA, get rid of the spell book, let it pick a bloodline and gain the first level bloodline ability only (to replace the wizard bond ability), give it the spells known/spells per day of a sorcerer and call it a day.
Boom, instant spontaneous gish class, already balanced for the system, complete with archetypes.
MDT, what if we don't want that two-handed fighting style with spells thing the magus has going on? And remember, that class is balanced for only six levels of spells. With the battle sorcerer (this one, or Unearthed Arcana version from 3.5) we are talking about full 9th level casting.
Master Arminas
We have a feral kobold battle sorcerer in our party. It has +3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Will, 1d8 HD, proficient in all simple weapons and 1 martial weapon, light armor, can cast in light armor, and full bloodline access, but casts 1 less spell per level per day, and knows 1 less spell per level (minimum 1). It seems really balanced with the party we have (battle sorcerer, dragon shaman, and archer ranger). He uses mostly natural weapons, so he can go claw/claw/claw (haste and/or feat for 3rd claw attack)/bite/tail/(wing/wing when in dragon form). Really effective with 3.5 wraithstrike spell (swift action to cast, for 1 round, resolve all melee attacks as melee touch attacks).
Anything is effective with Wraithstrike. It's one of the most broken spells to come out of 3.5. Nobody should NOT know this spell if they can learn it. Alas, most monsters don't.
===Aelryinth
If you're looking for substitutions, Battle Caster could replace the Bloodline Feat gained at 7th level and Spell Critical could replace the Bloodline Power gained at 15th level.
I like the idea of Battle Caster replacing a bloodline feat at 7th level.
OK. I have read your replies and taken you advice to heart. Here then is the new and revised archetype. I think I have corrected the problems, but I know some people are still not going to like that it replaces EVERY power, arcana, and feat of a bloodline. Honestly, though, I just can't see a bloodline being something that the Battle Sorcerer needs. I could be wrong, but I think his increased BAB, increased hit die, and the handful of special abilities that he gets in addition to a full 0-9 level spellcasting is more than enough.
I could be wrong, like I said. But nonetheless, I do want your opinions. Enjoy!
Master Arminas
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8. The battle sorcerer gives up his bloodline arcana in exchange for the higher hit die.
BAB: Medium. The battle sorcerer gives up his bloodline spells known for the increase in BAB.
Good Saves: Will
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha). A battle sorcerer gives up his bonus class skill for the extra skill.
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A battle sorcerer is proficient in all simple weapons and with one martial weapon of his choice. He is proficient in light armor, but not with medium or heavy armor, or with any type of shield. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in medium or heavy armor or when using any type of shield. A battle sorcerer gives up his 1st level bloodline power for the bonus proficiencies and the ability to cast in light armor.
Spells: A battle sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn from the battle sorcerer spell list (see below). To cast a spell, a battle sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a battle sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the battle sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a battle sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A battle sorcerer’s selection of spells in extremely limited. A battle sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of his choice. At each new battle sorcerer table, he gains one or more new spells, as per the Sorcerer class. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the number shown are fixed.)
Upon reaching 4th-level, and every even-numbered battle sorcerer level after that, a battle sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the battle sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A battle sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or cleric, a battle sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can use any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Cantrips: Battle sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted in the Sorcerer class description. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they not consume any slots and may be used again.
Eschew Materials: A battle sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus at feat at 1st level.
Metamagic Adept: At 3rd level, a battle sorcerer can apply any one metamagic feat that he knows to a spell he is about to cast without increasing the casting time. He must still expend a higher level spell slot to cast this spell. He may use this ability once per day at 3rd level and one additional time per day for every four battle sorcerer levels he possesses beyond 3rd, up to five times per day at 19th level. A battle sorcerer gives up his 3rd level bloodline power in order to gain this ability.
Battle Caster: At 7th level, a battle sorcerer gains Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light and medium armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in heavy armor or when using any type of shield. A battle sorcerer gives up his bloodline feats (7th, 13th, AND 19th level) for proficiency with Medium Armor and the ability to cast in medium armor.
Spell Intensity: At 9th level, a battle sorcerer adds his class level to the damage of any spell that he casts AND that inflicts hit point damage. Spells cast from a scroll, a wand, a rod, or a staff do not receive this extra bonus damage. A battle sorcerer gives up his 9th level bloodline power in order to gain this ability.
Spell Critical: At 15th level, whenever a battle sorcerer successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The to spell to be cast must be one with a casting time of 1 standard action or less; it must be a spell that the battle sorcerer could normally apply the Quicken Spell feat to (and thus consumes a spell slot equal to the spell cast + 4 levels). The battle sorcerer need not possess the quicken spell feat in order to use this ability. A battle sorcerer gives up his 15th level bloodline power in order to gain this ability.
Battle Sorcerer Supreme: At 20th level, a battle sorcerer no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for casting spells in melee. He does not need to cast defensively in order to avoid these attacks. Whenever an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from a battle sorcerer, he may either make a melee attack against the creature that provoked OR he may, as a swift action, cast a spell that has the creature that provoked as its target. The to spell to be cast must be one with a casting time of 1 standard action or less; it must be a spell that the battle sorcerer could normally apply the Quicken Spell feat to (and thus consumes a spell slot equal to the spell cast + 4 levels). The battle sorcerer need not possess the quicken spell feat in order to use this ability. A battle sorcerer gives up his 20th level bloodline power in order to gain this ability.
Spell Critical and Spell Intensity are not worth me giving up a bloodline power, and as for Battle Sorcerer Supreme the chances of failing an concentration check for casting defensively is nigh impossible, well before level 20. Flavor-wise it is nice, but not really useful at that level. Casting a quickened spell is also not worth the slot for an attack of opportunity since it is very unlikely that the subject will fail the save of a spell that is 5th level at best. It is also unlikely that anything you are fighting at level 20 is dumb enough to provoke. Most likely it will have reach so it really has no reason to enter into your threat range. If it is a fighter-type, and not a monster then you don't want to be in melee with it anyway so that attack of opportunity still probably won't happen.
Back to Spell Critical: Criticals or things that trigger off of them are dicey enough that I think the caster is better off with a bloodline power he can always use(he can activate on command at least).
Battlecaster is not worth 3 slots. At the most it is worth two. I would probably trade in the 13 and 19th level bloodlines for an always on bonus to AC(maybe luck or shield) since medium armor alone won't be helping him if he decides to go to the front line.
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Replacing all the bloodline abilities of the sorcerer removes almost all of the flavor of the sorcerer class.
All right, I must be wrong. It just seems over the top to me, but here is Take 3.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium.
Good Saves: Will
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A battle sorcerer is proficient in all simple weapons and with one martial weapon of his choice. He is proficient in light armor, but not with medium or heavy armor, or with any type of shield. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in medium or heavy armor or when using any type of shield.
Spells: A battle sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn from the battle sorcerer spell list (see below). To cast a spell, a battle sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a battle sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the battle sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a battle sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is one less spell (per spell level, per day) than a Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A battle sorcerer’s selection of spells in extremely limited. A battle sorcerer begins play knowing three 0-level spells and one 1st-level spells of his choice. At each new battle sorcerer table, he gains one or more new spells. The battle sorcerer knows one less spell of each spell level than a sorcerer. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the number shown are fixed.)
Upon reaching 4th-level, and every even-numbered battle sorcerer level after that, a battle sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the battle sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A battle sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or cleric, a battle sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can use any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Cantrips: Battle sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted in the Sorcerer class description. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they not consume any slots and may be used again.
Eschew Materials: A battle sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus at feat at 1st level.
Bloodline: A battle sorcerer may select a bloodline of his choice and gains all of the abilities listed therein.
Battle Caster: At 7th level, a battle sorcerer gains Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells in light and medium armor without suffering any arcane spell failure chance, but suffers the normal chance of failure for casting in heavy armor or when using any type of shield. A battle sorcerer gives up his 7th level bloodline feat for proficiency with Medium Armor and the ability to cast in medium armor.
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I think you should should look at how a battle sorcerer is likely to be played and fit it in from that angle as apposed to just modifing the class with no reference. A battle sorcerer is likely to actually use the martial weapon in combat while using the spells as support to de/buff,out of combat uses, maneuvering options, or as ranged and aoe effects, but a sorcerer does not learn to wield a weapon effectivly just to never use it.
You should design the ablities accordingly. Maybe ask the player wanting play it how he wants to play the character or if for an NPC, why a new class? Why not just take the appropiate feats? Get the answers and you should always see how these fit or not with each ability. And reusing abilities from other places doesn't add much to make it stand out, thus not likely to ever be used.
Why the Battle Sorcerer? It was a 3.5 class presented in Unearthed Arcana. It was an interesting take on an armored full-caster arcane character who could hit as well as a cleric and cast (almost) as well as a true sorcerer. It was a concept that I wanted to see if it could work in Pathfinder.
I didn't want to make an entirely new class, but did want to attempt to create an archetype for it.
Aelryinth, Ararlost, Wraithstrike, Smilodan, LazarX, and JiCi have been giving suggestions and ideas on what to change, what to keep, how to make this archetype work. They have critiqued specific elements and I have responded to their comments and criticisms by trying to make it work together.
I understand where you are coming from DarkLightHitomi, but perhaps a more specific suggestions might work here. Not everything needs to be unique; building off of what has been successful can often lead to greater success. If you have any suggestions on how to make the concept work, DLH, I would love to hear them.
Master Arminas
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I was at an audition but I wanted to go home and review my core book before giving something more specific. I apoligize if I seemed unhelpful. That said I have my book now so here goes,
Leave hit dice at d8, i think it is overpowered to have a fighters hit points.
the d8 replaces the bloodline arcana.
The martial weapon and armor casting (gaining medium armor later)replace the bloodline powers.(though I say a martial or exotic weapon would be cool and wouldn't change the balance at all)
The cap power could be heavy armor or somatic weaponry( a feat found elsewhere I don't remember where but it allows one to use their weapons to make the somatic componants to spells which allow a caster to dual wield or have shield in off hand and still cast)
Keep the bloodline bonus feats but make the list contain fighter feats and/or things like combat casting or augument summoning.
Add survival or handle animal and ride.
And make the bonus spell list have spells like shield.
No need to reduce the spells because the bonuses are already countered by other penalties.
This remains at similer power level and balance I think.
So Take 1 without spell critical and keep the bloodline feats? lol
No problem, man. I welcome any comments and critiques.
Master Arminas
The original 3.5 version of this traded the increase of BAB +3/4 and 1d8 hit dice for the decrease is spells known by 1 (minimum 1) and decrease of spells per day per level by 1. Since the original 3.5 sorcerer had 1d4 HD and the 3.5 battle sorcerer got 1d8 HD (an increase of 2 die sizes, and the Pathfinder had 1d6 HD and only increases by 1 die size to 1d8 HD, boosting the PF Sorcerer by giving it good Fort saves makes sense.
DUH! I meant to do exactly that. Thank you SD.
Master Arminas
Yeah, the MAD of the battle sorcerer is kind of a balancing issue, as is the limited number of spells known.
Hello, I know I'm late to the party. I never payed much attention to the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer, just letting you know that now. But some thoughts.
I like the second take. I might even consider using it in my campaign. But, I'm wondering if you considered a Magus archetype for this? I'm not sure why, other than they already have the sword and the armor taken care of.
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I like your take two version. I'll playtest it in my group and see how it handles. I'll also run it through some mock battles with some of my premades. Honestly, I would be all right with trading Arcana for the combat ability. I'll also stat out a few variants; dragon disciple, eldritch knight, archane archer and maybe dawnflower dissident or hellknight signiferr.