Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?
More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
I can relate to this. One time, I was playing in PFS and the summoner's Eidolon blocked the path to the boss and both it's henchmen. They could only fight it one at a time while all us other player characters twiddled our thumbs and waited for it to kill all three of them (which it totally did).
I can relate to this. One time, I was playing in PFS and the summoner's Eidolon blocked the path to the boss and both it's henchmen. They could only fight it one at a time while all us other player characters twiddled our thumbs and waited for it to kill all three of them (which it totally did).Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
Actually I banned it only in my Homebrew world, along with non human paladins, and Elves as a playable race. The few times I run Golarion my players can play what ever they want.
Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
I understand why people do it. I know the class is good.
Well, in our current 3 party PF game (Core & APG only, so far), with 15 PC’s we have 2 bards. But that’s because:
The game rewards skill points, Diplomacy and RPing and -
We started the 2 bards before we realized how sucky they were. We thought that bardic performance lasted as long as you could reasonable in-game keep it up, with each “use” being how many time you could START/Change a performance. Why-oh-why did they choose to nerf bards of all classes is beyond me.
Since CHA is a requirement, we have only had one Monk (archer type).
No Alchemists, no Bbn, no Knights or druids.
Currently we have 2 bards (one who has a level of cleric), 2 rogues, 2 inquisitors, 2 oracles, 2 paladins, 2 witches, 1 fighter, 1 Summoner, 1 wizard. We have lost 1 Sorc, 1 Cleric, 1 ranger, and the monk. We found the witch, the oracle and the inquisitor all pretty useful.
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If I see a class not being utilized, then I tend to throw scary NPC versions of them at the party to remind them that all the classes are fun. I'll never forget the goblin cavaliers mounted on goblin dogs that I sicked on the party once because they said how much the class sucked. The latest one was a druid/witch/mystic theurge that almost killed the party.
It's still too early in their existence but Summoners won't likely be making a return appearance for my regular group.
But based on the last 10 years of 3.X for our group in order from least to most played:
Monk < Sorcerer < Bard < Druid = Paladin < Barbarian < Rogue < Wizard < Cleric < Fighter
For the new base classes in the APG (we don't use Ultimate Combat yet so those are omitted):
Summoner < Alchemist = Witch < Oracle = Inquisitor = Cavalier
I've started with D&D just when 3rd Ed. was about to come out, and in all the years, there was a single paladin in an NWN game, and not a single one in pnp games.
I'm running 2 groups right now, one 5 player and one 4 player, with only 2 players overlapping between the 2. Only 1 player (not one of the overlapping ones) is someone I'd consider an optimizer. Everyone else makes their characters based around flavor and what they think would be "cool." Therefore, we've got a pretty balanced and varied spread going right now:
Bard (Archivist)
Fighter
Magus
Monk
Ninja
Oracle (of Bones)
Rogue
Sorcerer (Storm bloodline)/Fighter on his way to Arcane Archer
Wizard
And I've seen my share of all the other classes induce enjoyment at one point or another.
Out of the core classes, the rarest ones I've seen are monks, paladins, barbarians and rangers. That may be biased by the fact that some of my games started in 3.5 and transitioned to PFRPG later on. I don't think I've ever seen a "mostly barbarian" or "mostly ranger" PC in a PFRPG game -- only multiclassed characters with barbarian/ranger in the minority.
Out of the APG classes, I haven't seen many summoners, witches or inquisitors (maybe one of each).
I've seen lots of rangers and barbarians, but that's probably to a great deal because of the campaigns I run. With 80% spending in the wilderness, they are much more attractive.
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Rarest classes in my group from the past 4 years are:
Wizards - no one has ever played one
Inquisitors - no one has ever had the chance to play one yet
Druids - maybe played once for a very short one-shot a couple of years ago.
Fighters - no one has ever played one
Witches - one has ever had the chance to play one yet
Gunslinger - too new for anyone to start yet
Most common classes played:
Clerics - at least two in every campaign
Alchemist - been one in every game since the APG was released
Barbarian - been one, sometimes two in every game since we started playing together
In between we have rogues, monks, oracles, rangers, cavaliers, sorcerers, and paladins that usually make an appearance. Recently a few players have played a summoner, a magus, and a bard.
Our Kingmaker group has (yeah its a big group):
paladin/oracle
cleric of pharasma
barbarian
ninja
rogue/cleric
sorcerer
alchemist
summoner
Only class that has never appeared in my game is summoner, probably because I banned itWhy would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game? Oh yeah some people can't properly prep summoners or properly interpret the rules on them.
Perhaps that is a design problem?
I rarely, if ever, see players in my group play clerics; which is a shame since the class provides plenty of variety and room for customization.
I've had only one player play a druid when playing Pathfinder.
I've yet to have a player come to the table with an oracle.
Wizards are becoming increasingly scarce.
Nobody seems to want to play a ranger or paladin either.
We get a lot of barbarians, monks, rogues, and sorcerers though.
Actually I banned it only in my Homebrew world, along with non human paladins, and Elves as a playable race. The few times I run Golarion my players can play what ever they want.I can relate to this. One time, I was playing in PFS and the summoner's Eidolon blocked the path to the boss and both it's henchmen. They could only fight it one at a time while all us other player characters twiddled our thumbs and waited for it to kill all three of them (which it totally did).Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
Well yeah, you can't ban anything in PFS, you just have to deal with them. Although, even that summoner player realized his character was ridiculous and doesn't really play it any more (adding a summoner to the list of classes I don't really see that much). Although, I'd hate you're game world, since Elves are my favorite race, lol.
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Rogues are horribly overrepresented in my group. Everybody wants to stealth around, steal whatever's not nailed down, and then stab people it seems. Bards are pretty popular too, since none of us like the idea of prepared spells but we still need healers, and we haven't really gotten into the APG much yet-- the only APG class we've tried so far is alchemist. I guess that makes the other five APG classes the least played in my group, but that's mostly due to us being slow to adopt.
Rangers, druids, and wizards are probably the least common classes I see among core classes. Clerics are pretty rare too, since usually our healing is done by paladins and/or bards with wands.
Although, I'd hate you're game world, since Elves are my favorite race, lol.
Well there are Elves in my world, just they would never have anything to do with any of the mortal races. Though Changelings are kind of the answer to Elves in my world, as in Talora, Changelings are what happens when Elves get their hands on a human child and set them off into the world.
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Counting "legit" characters (no one-shot sessions):
Core
Barbarian: 2
Bard: 1
Cleric: 2
Druid: 2
Fighter: 2
Monk: 3
Paladin: 3
Ranger: 1
Rogue: many...
Sorcerer: 3+
Wizard: 3+
---
Other Books
Alchemist: 1
Cavalier: 0
Inquisitor: 0
Oracle: 2
Summoner: 1
Witch: 1
Magus: 1
Samurai: 1
Ninja: 1
Gunslinger: 0
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@ Achilles
the eidolon used a greatsword, the half orc used a bastard sword, that is your problem
i assume the half orc used his weapon with one hand. that could easily be why.
a 2handed weapon is supposed to outdamage a 1handed one. it's common sense. and bastard sword is a horribly suboptimal weapon choice. at least longsword doesn't cost a feat. and i imagine the half orc compensated with decent defenses. eidolons also have fewer feats due to having less hit dice, and less hit points. thier saves aren't too hot either. the eidolon is the glass cannon, i mean paper rocket launcher.
Of every group I've had the privilege to game with...I am the only one to ever play a cleric. Seriously.
The only ones my group overlooked were the APG classes but that's because only one guy had the APG and they didn't interest anyone so much. While I was DM, every last class from Core was tried it out, since the two Fighters switched to a Barbarian and a Paladin, while the Monk switched to Undead Bloodline Sorcerer after death and ressurection, since he wanted the same character and we didn't have Ressurection spells at hand since a Golem had killed the kindly Aasimar Cleric (poor girl, even the psychotic evil guys in the group liked her) due to an Attack of Opportunity.
Fighter and Rogue seem to be classes people dip into, rather than play.
I've got a straight fighter I'm itching to play. I also have a Ranger 1/Fighter 11. He's a Rogue.
But with that said I also have a strength based Halfling Bard (with power attack of course). So I don't exactly concern myself too much with mechanics. I'm more a fluff person and then find mechanics that can make the character enjoyable.
I would have to say that the inquisitor is the least used one in my group, I don't recall anyone actually playing one, even though there has been some interest.
How are fighters better trapfinders than rogues?
Rogue: "I walk down the passage."
DM: "*rolls* You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Rogue: "No, what I meant was that I carefully sneak down the passage."
DM: "Okay, *rolls* you're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Rogue: "No, I meant I was really crawling very carefully along the passage, checking for traps every single step of the way."
DM: "Fine. *rolls* You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Fighter: "Let me try instead. I walk down the corridor."
DM: "You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* 35 hp damage."
Fighter: "Piece of cake. Come on, let's go."
(Paraphrased from memory, Gamers is awesome. =) )
Perhaps that is a design problem?Only class that has never appeared in my game is summoner, probably because I banned itWhy would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game? Oh yeah some people can't properly prep summoners or properly interpret the rules on them.
It is a design problem, there are still unanswered questions about the class. Such as –where does the eidolons weapons go when it dies or gets dismissed? And the questions about the syntheisit variant go on for dozens of pages.
Of core classes Druid seems to be the least represented in our D&D/PF group. Maybe it has something to do with us having problems with druid npcs at the begining of both D&D campaigns. Of non-core classes only Witch was picked by a player but we are somewhat early when it comes to Pathfinder play time so more non-core classes may appear in the future.
How are fighters better trapfinders than rogues?
Rogue: "I walk down the passage."
DM: "*rolls* You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Rogue: "No, what I meant was that I carefully sneak down the passage."
DM: "Okay, *rolls* you're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Rogue: "No, I meant I was really crawling very carefully along the passage, checking for traps every single step of the way."
DM: "Fine. *rolls* You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* You die."
Fighter: "Let me try instead. I walk down the corridor."
DM: "You're hit by a fireball trap. *rolls* 35 hp damage."
Fighter: "Piece of cake. Come on, let's go."(Paraphrased from memory, Gamers is awesome. =) )
Rogue- “I roll a nat 20, I have evasion, I take no damage”
Later. Fighter- “I walk down the passageway, knowing my awesome HP will protect me.” DM- “Make your Reflex save” Fighter- “A 16?” DM “Fail. The floor swivels, dumping you down a Pit, take 25 hp damage” Fighter “No sweat”. DM “OK, now how are you going to get out? It requires a disable device roll.” Fighter “I have very tasty boots?”
Not all traps do damage. Some TRAP you.
DrDeth I don't think you understand the true power of the leadership feat and a ten foot pole.
DrDeth I don't think you understand the true power of the leadership feat and a ten foot pole.
You mean that feat almost nobody allows? :U
DrDeth I don't think you understand the true power of the leadership feat and a ten foot pole.
My friend- I played original 3 Vol set before there were Rogues (or Thieves). Try doing any decent Gygaxian dungeon with cohorts and you’ll find the body count gets to the point where your Leadership feat is only attracting flies.
DrDeth I don't think you understand the true power of the leadership feat and a ten foot pole.You mean that feat almost nobody allows? :U
Pshhh they aren't hardcore enough to allow it. Besides summoners are the best trap monkeys.
Come on DrDeth obviously those penalties only apply if they know about your past experience with npc's.
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Monkeys are the best trap monkeys. Not too expensive, just get the Druid to handle animal them. And a monkey cohort; if it dies 24 hours later BAM! New monkey. Druids are like monkey makers. "we're in the middle of the land of dooming oblivion; and it just ate my monkey". "sigh, here goes 24 hours of chanting. Here, monkey, monkey, monkey!"
Druid: I summon a monkey and order it to open the door.
GM: The monkey looks confused for a second, then horrified. It's heard what happens to those who answer your summons.
Druid: So does it open the door?
GM: tears well up in its eyes. It looks pleading, holding up a picture of a female monkey and 2 young that look like him; his family, more than likely.
Druid: Tell it to open the door.
GM: It sighs in resignation and opens the door. Lightning shoots through it (GM rolls). It takes 40 damage and disappears instantly. Somewhere in a remote jungle, 2 young chimps are horrified as the charred remains of their father appears before them.
Druid: Hmmm; wonder if the trap is disarmed? I recall that chimp had a mate...
We have way too many people wanting to play Bards and Rogues... Classes like Cleric or Wizard aren't common (I guess they require too much work)
Monkeys are the best trap monkeys. Not too expensive, just get the Druid to handle animal them. And a monkey cohort; if it dies 24 hours later BAM! New monkey. Druids are like monkey makers. "we're in the middle of the land of dooming oblivion; and it just ate my monkey". "sigh, here goes 24 hours of chanting. Here, monkey, monkey, monkey!"
Druid: I summon a monkey and order it to open the door.
GM: The monkey looks confused for a second, then horrified. It's heard what happens to those who answer your summons.
Druid: So does it open the door?
GM: tears well up in its eyes. It looks pleading, holding up a picture of a female monkey and 2 young that look like him; his family, more than likely.
Druid: Tell it to open the door.
GM: It sighs in resignation and opens the door. Lightning shoots through it (GM rolls). It takes 40 damage and disappears instantly. Somewhere in a remote jungle, 2 young chimps are horrified as the charred remains of their father appears before them.
Druid: Hmmm; wonder if the trap is disarmed? I recall that chimp had a mate...
Hilarious!!!
I understand why people do it. I know the class is good.Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
Okay, then why did you ask a question you already knew the answer to? :P
Okay, then why did you ask a question you already knew the answer to? :PI understand why people do it. I know the class is good.Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.
If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.
Read my original post.
I'm wondering what other people don't see at their table. For ours it's things with mounts and druids. The last time I saw a druid was a year ago and it was a Japanese loving girl that played her character like an anime character.
Our group has a pretty solid mixture of classes with regularly use. In the last year, I'm pretty sure we've had a barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, wizard, monk, psion, psychic warrior, ranger, rogue, alchemist, summoner, or some combination thereof.
Rogue is less common because Ranger is strictly better.
Monk is usually a dip, with the exception of one player.
Sorcerer has only really seen play semi-recently due to un-nerfing its spell progression.
Nobody has played a witch in our group yet, but there has been interest.
Nobody has cared about Cavaliers, Ninjas, or Samurai, because they seem either too limited in their scope of options, or are redundant. Nobody uses PF gunslingers because they're terrible on several different levels, and everyone in our group would basically rather pretend that guns didn't exist in Golarion rather than use the Ultimate Combat gun rules.
I thought summon monster spells were the best trapfinders. They just open the door, and if the trap kills them, they are merely unsummoned, not dead. Plus, you get fiendish monkeys. Not to mention a better casting time.
I thought summon monster spells were the best trapfinders. They just open the door, and if the trap kills them, they are merely unsummoned, not dead. Plus, you get fiendish monkeys. Not to mention a better casting time.
Summon Monster spells are great trapfinders. Also undead are a good backup. The only types of traps they're not super great against are resetting traps (but at least they find them), or alarms which alert enemies, or traps that summon enemies (summon monster traps are a barrel of celestial monkies).
I can tell you being a celestial dire badger in my Neverwinter Nights playthrough as a sorcerer was an exercise in getting extremely killed.
Druid: I summon a monkey and order it to open the door.
GM: The monkey looks confused for a second, then horrified. It's heard what happens to those who answer your summons.
Druid: So does it open the door?
GM: tears well up in its eyes. It looks pleading, holding up a picture of a female monkey and 2 young that look like him; his family, more than likely.
Druid: Tell it to open the door.
GM: It sighs in resignation and opens the door. Lightning shoots through it (GM rolls). It takes 40 damage and disappears instantly. Somewhere in a remote jungle, 2 young chimps are horrified as the charred remains of their father appears before them.
Druid: Hmmm; wonder if the trap is disarmed? I recall that chimp had a mate...
That was one of the funniest things I've read lately. Bravo.
We don't see cavaliers due to the whole mounted combat thing.
We also haven't seen any summoners or alchemists. I think that is primarily due to the complication factor. We only meet for a few hours every other week and we have pretty full lives. So we don't usually have time to devote to poring over every possibility in a bunch of books. Every time someone tries to build one of these we usually find something was overlooked making it not work out the way it was originally thought. Then they get frustrated and move back to something a little simpler. Either that or it slows the game down too much while we argue over something.
But I'm thinking about trying a gnome cavalier or half-orc alchemist next.
That was one of the funniest things I've read lately. Bravo.Druid: I summon a monkey and order it to open the door.
GM: The monkey looks confused for a second, then horrified. It's heard what happens to those who answer your summons.
Druid: So does it open the door?
GM: tears well up in its eyes. It looks pleading, holding up a picture of a female monkey and 2 young that look like him; his family, more than likely.
Druid: Tell it to open the door.
GM: It sighs in resignation and opens the door. Lightning shoots through it (GM rolls). It takes 40 damage and disappears instantly. Somewhere in a remote jungle, 2 young chimps are horrified as the charred remains of their father appears before them.
Druid: Hmmm; wonder if the trap is disarmed? I recall that chimp had a mate...
Yeah that's hilarious. Good thing that summoned monsters aren't actually hurt. They're not called, just avatars. At least summons have that going for them. Otherwise it would definitely be cruel and unusual. :P
Then again, if it was like that, then at least we have undead minions for the morally conscious.
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Druid: I summon a monkey and order it to open the door...That was one of the funniest things I've read lately. Bravo.Yeah that's hilarious. Good thing that summoned monsters aren't actually hurt. They're not called, just avatars. At least summons have that going for them. Otherwise it would definitely be cruel and unusual. :P
Then again, if it was like that, then at least we have undead minions for the morally conscious.
And where are you going to get all the bodies for undead minions? Orphaned chimps, of course!
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Summon Nature's Ally says no such thing; Summon monster doesn't either, but the nature of an extraplanar being does; if it dies on the material plane, it just returns. The natural guys have no such qualifier; so I rule somewhere in the jungles of Golarian there are hundreds of rotting, decomposing monkeys until someone can prove otherwise :).
Could actually work for the GM to cause confusion for the party:
GM: You are walking through the town of Giswall, a small quaint town. A little girl happily walks her pet dog, and several townsfolk are standing around gossiping.
Pally: Using my charming charisma I'm going to go to the townspeople, befriend them, and find out if there is any evil about.
GM: As you are about to approach the townsfolk, the little girl's dog blinks out of sight. The girl begins to start crying. "Muffin! Where are you?" she calls, tears pouring down her face.
Pally: (rolls die) 25 on diplomacy to calm her?
GM: She seems placated for now.
Pally: I'm going to look for any clue to see what happened to Muffin.
GM: (rolling dice just to pretend he's doing something). As you're searching around, the corpse of Muffins reappears. He appears to have taken several blows, then fried to death in a fire spell of sorts. The little girl bursts into tears, a look of horror on her face. The townsfolk stare on shocked.
Pally: By the sword of Iomedea! WHAT EVIL IS THIS?!?
