RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Alright, so I'm thinking of making a poison-using character for PFS (partly because I've heard it said it can't be done effectively), but rules (both Core and PFS-specific) for poison use are scattered everywhere, so I wanted to put it all together and get feedback as to whether I missed anything.
So to start, the PFS FAQ on poisons:
How do poisons work in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
Any character with the Poison Use class ability can purchase and use poisons. For now, they are the only classes that have a list of “always available poisons” (those noted below)—no other class may purchase poisons unless they appear on a chronicle sheet. Alchemists, ninja, and poisoner rogues may only purchase the following poisons from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook:Giant wasp poison
Large scorpion venom
Medium spider venom
Shadow essence
Small centipede poisonPaladins, per their code of conduct, may not use poisons, but they don’t necessarily view the use of poisons as an evil to be opposed—it’s simply something their code prohibits them from doing themselves.
Alchemists and rogues with the poisoner archetype and the Master Poisoner ability can use Craft (alchemy) to produce poisons (see "How can alchemists craft in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?").
Okay, so I need to play an Alchemist, a Poisoner Rogue, or a Ninja. Then I can buy a few basic poisons, but they're pricy!
But there's that last bit about Alchemists/Poisoners crafting poisons themselves (I guess no luck for the ninja).
So now we need to know how to craft poisons...
Poisons can be made using Craft (alchemy). The DC to make a poison is equal to its Fortitude save DC. Rolling a natural 1 on a Craft skill check while making a poison exposes the crafter to the poison. Crafters with the poison use class feature do not risk poisoning themselves when using Craft to make poison.
Alright, so that doesn't seem too hard - some of those DCs would be a cakewalk (others less so, but hey).
Now let's check the Alchemist/Crafting FAQ that was referenced in the Poison FAQ:
Alchemists can use the Craft (alchemy) skill to produce items with their Alchemy ability. Follow the Craft rules on pages 91–93 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook as well as in the alchemist’s Alchemy ability description. Any item created must be properly noted on that scenario’s Chronicle sheet. Under "Items Bought", note the amount of gold spent and the item created. Alchemists are assumed, for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, to carry the necessary items and tools with them to use available resources to create alchemical items. If they have a base of operations from which to do so, they may use an alchemy lab to gain the +2 bonus on their Craft (alchemy) check. Alchemists may never sell any of their created items nor may they trade them to another PC. However, they may allow other PCs to borrow or use items they’ve created (so long as the alchemist class ability being used allows them to do so).
So if I followed this, basically you follow the rules in the Craft skill section of the CRB (except the DC is the poison's save DC), and note the cost and item on a chronicle as though you'd purchased it. Which basically means you spend 1/3 of the poison's price in materials, make a Craft check, and boom, you're done. Right?
1. Am I to understand that I can spend the "in-game" time needed for crafting in the undefined time lapse between scenarios, and mark it on my most recent chronicle? (Sort of like Day Jobs and between-scenario shopping.)
2. Can I take 10 on a "between-scenarios" craft check? (Having a +9 and failing to make a DC 11 poison would seem really lame, especially for someone so talented as to be incapable of accidentally poisoning himself.)
3. If I fail to produce a poison (failed Craft check), how do I record the wasted material cost? Under "Items Bought", perhaps writing "steaming pile of junk"? ;)
4. If I apply some GM chronicles to my poisoner, can I "witness" my own Craft checks to make poisons? Or do I need to wait and then do a whole list of Craft checks before starting the next scenario I play? Does the answer to this question change based on whether or not I take 10?
EDIT: 5. More of a general rules question, but I had trouble finding it - can a single dose of poison only be applied to a single piece of ammunition, or can you poison a "batch", sort of like how some spells and such affect one melee weapon or a batch of ammo?
EDIT EDIT: 6. Does the list of "always available" poisons apply to crafting as well, or only to purchases? That is, can I craft poisons other than the five listed in the FAQ?
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One thought that I'd add is that ninja = rogue. If a rule says rogues can do this, then so can ninjas, as they are considered the same (but foo-ruled 'alternate') class, in the same way that a samurai is also a cavalier.
Have you reviewed the gunsmith feat and firearms ammo rule for PFS? IIRC you just pay a flat (discounted) rate for alchemical cartridges, no skill checks needed provided you have at least 1 skill rank in craft/alchemy. It's probably a bit of a stretch to assume that the same principle applies to creating poisons, but come some future rules streamlining/consolidation it probably should/will.
But until such a time, you can look at the animal companion to gain insight. You can't roll the handle animal skill check to teach a trick on your own GM chronicle, neither can you day job, so I'd assume you can't witness your own roll for anything.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sorry for the multi-posting, but I keep thinking of other questions:
Can I spend prestige to acquire poisons that aren't always available?
Can I spend prestige to acquire materials to craft poisons?
How does my Fame affect my ability to craft poisons (ones that aren't always available)? Do I need sufficient Fame for the total price? For the crafting cost? Does Fame not factor into it?
Can I purchase poisons that aren't always available if my Fame is high enough, or do I have to craft them?
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To be honest, and not to dampen you're spirits. I found Poison use to be more wasteful than useful. After looking at the cost of maintaining a regular poison supply without the ability to create mass quantities of it through conventional means. (Actually going out and collecting some) The expense heavily outweighs the cost, given that the cost itself feeds directly into your effectiveness in all other areas. I'd maybe buy one or two doses and keep them for emergency, but that's pretty much it.
Most of this is due to the list being so short, some poisons are well worth their cost, they're just not on the list.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Most of this is due to the list being so short, some poisons are well worth their cost, they're just not on the list.
This is where some of my questions become extremely important:
It's clear that if I want to purchase poisons, I'm restricted to the list plus whatever I find on chronicles (at least for poisons from the CRB*). But what about crafting? Can I or can I not craft poisons from outside that list? Or can I spend prestige to gain doses of poison? (We already know that prestige items bypass normal availability restrictions for other items.)
If I can craft poisons, then I can make, say, Blue Whinnis for 40gp a pop and start putting people to sleep (if they fail 2 saves). (Alternatively, with Blue Winnis costing 120gp, can I spend 1 prestige to gain a single dose?)
Or I could make Drow Poison for 25gp a pop and drop people if they fail a single DC13 Fort save.
Yes, I'd still churn through resources faster than most, but I think it could be doable.
*To add to the information at hand, note that the Additional Resources page explicitly allows poisons from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rival Guide. So clearly it's possible to gain poisons other than those on the list. And obviously I could craft any poison I could buy. The real question, then, is can I or can I not craft poisons which I could not buy?
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I think that safest thing to do is assume that the purchase list for poisons extends to the crafting as well. I'm not sure the reason why these specific poisons were selected, but it could be a balance issue in the eyes of the campaign director.
As a table GM, in lieu of other material, I would rule you are restricted to the specified purchase list.
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I considered not answering because I think the book has other good material to offer, but here ya go. The jellyfish is my favorite for effectiveness, but fiddleback is nice as well.
Cockatrice Spit
Type: poison, contact, injury, ingested
Save: Fort DC12
Frequency: 1/round for 4 rounds
Effect: 1d2 Dex...if your Dex drops to zero, you are petrified
Cure: 1 save
Price: 1,000gp
Fiddleback Venom
Type: poison, injury, ingested
Save: Fort DC13
Onset: 1 minute
Frequency: 1/minute for 6 minutes
Initial Effect: nauseated 1d4 rounds
Secondary Effect: 1d4 WIS damage
Cure: 2 saves
Price: 500gp
Hag Spit
Type: poison, injury, ingested
Save: Fort DC16
Frequency: 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect: blindness for 1d10 rounds
Secondary Effect: 1d4 WIS damage
Cure: 2 saves
Price: 1,500gp
Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin
Type: poison, contact, injury
Save: Fort DC14
Frequency: 1/round for 2 rounds
Initial Effect: staggered for 1d6 rounds
Secondary Effect: paralyzed for 1d6 minutes
Cure: 1 save
Price: 400gp
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Oh, and forgot to add...
Blackfingers Paste
Developed by followers of Norgorber, this inky paste aids unskilled poison-users. When smeared on the fingers, a dose of blackfingers paste prevents accidental poisoning while applying poison to a weapon, as if the user possessed the poison use ability. A single dose of blackfingers paste lasts for 1d6 hours, but the black stains the stuff creates on the user's fingers lasts for days. A single dose of this alchemical item costs 50gp.
The people you are wanting to respond have been out of the office all weekend for the holiday. They'll probably be back tomorrow.
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I´m joining in on how many pieces of ammunition a dose of poison can coat. One piece would be superridiculous and totally invalidating poison use as well as the existance of the blowgun. The cheapest PFS poison is 100gp. Now Alchemists and Poisoner rogues can craft it even cheaper from level 3 on. Around level 7 i guess its of not much use anymore because of all the immunities and low DC´s. And ninja´s can´t ever craft their own!
I know the poison FAQ, but it still could be validated more as a character concept, perhaps even scale up or something.
What i dream of is being able to use a halfling ninja with go unnoticed, wand of true strike, swift as shadows and a blowgun with poisoned darts which could make sniping cool even after you get the second attack, because it would make it worth it.
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The essential problem there is, that while the poison stays on a melee weapon untill used, ammunition is wasted if it didn´t hit. So there is the chance of not hitting wasting the poison and the chance of the foe making the save, what makes ranged poisoning have a double fail chance.
That can´t be the intent of it somehow.
I just found a text passage that says:
"Applying poison to a weapon or single piece of ammunition is a standard action."
That sounds a lot like 1 dose = one piece of ammunition.
Can someone verify that for PFS please?
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A dose of poison can't do that because that's what the rules say. That's not really a question for Pathfinder Society, either.
Alchemists are certainly the best poisoners, because of the Discovery that allows the poison to last multiple strikes, and the ability to quickly poison a blade at 6th level. You can have a tool kit of poisons which you can apply as a swift action, and the poison can last for a number of strikes equal to your intelligence modifier so you're not wasting a huge amount of gold on each fight. This also allows you to concentrate it on a single opponent to make the save more difficult.
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A dose of poison can't do that because that's what the rules say.
The rules don't actually say either way. That's why I'm arguing the more logical interpretation, in the hopes that someone on the Paizo staff will say, "Yes, that makes sense."
Obviously I would recommend that people default to the more cautious approach, since PFS GMs seem to prefer to err on the side of taking away options instead of granting them, but that doesn't require that I can't advocate for an official determination.
That's not really a question for Pathfinder Society, either.
That's because the conversation started here. Feel free to start another thread in which I'll argue for the same interpretation.
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d20pfsrd
Applying poison to a weapon or single piece of ammunition is a standard action.
So I would assume no on multiple uses on ammunition.
While it is hard to assume a couple things this goes beyond the scope what is really "legal"
Vial one once
Potion= one once of liquid. Potion same mass as poison.
Standard action to drink. Potion, if you wanted to drink a poison I would think it would be a standard action.
Weapon Blanch: These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to bypass one kind of material-based damage reduction, such as adamantine, cold iron, or silver. The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of blanching can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one kind of weapon blanch can be on a weapon at one time, though a weapon made of one special material (such as adamantine) can have a different material blanch (such as silver), and counts as both materials for the first successful hit.
Weight .5-1 pound
So mass 4 times or 8 more mass or weight than the the blanch, this if if you assume poisons are carried like that of a potion.
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So mass 4 times or 8 more mass or weight than the the blanch, this if if you assume poisons are carried like that of a potion.
True, but missing the point. The units are entirely arbitrary. Otherwise enough weapon blanch to coat ten large arrows wouldn't necessarily be used up on one small dagger.
That same argument works both ways: Either enough poison to coat a large greatsword's edge will be used up on the tip of a small dart--which is dumb--or it's enough to coat a large greatsword's edge vs ten small darts. Which is still dumb, if you try to apply physics to it, but since the arbitrary nature of the units can't be helped in an abstraction like an RPG, the latter interpretation is more equitable, and more in keeping with every other relevant pricing scheme I can think of (special qualities, enchantment, weapon blanches).
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The people you are wanting to respond have been out of the office all weekend for the holiday. They'll probably be back tomorrow.
Lol, and here we are a year later...
My two cents is that it takes just as much poison to cover an arrow as it does to coat a dagger or a long sword or a greatsword. Why? Because it's not the size of the weapon that matters, it's the amount of poison needed to be effective.
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Well it was one of the view threads on topic.
While makes some sense balancewise to not have 50 poisoned missiles on level 1, it´s still clearly a toll.
The ninja is put behind here because she cannot craft her own poisons, which should be changed in my opinion then. Perhaps let ninajs who take the master alchemist feat craft their own poisons.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs
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From my own experience with this from playing my gnome alchemist:
1. Am I to understand that I can spend the "in-game" time needed for crafting in the undefined time lapse between scenarios, and mark it on my most recent chronicle? (Sort of like Day Jobs and between-scenario shopping.)
Yep, and craft all you like too, even if the time required would take months due to the gp value of multiple doses crafted at the same time.
2. Can I take 10 on a "between-scenarios" craft check? (Having a +9 and failing to make a DC 11 poison would seem really lame, especially for someone so talented as to be incapable of accidentally poisoning himself.)
Yes, it's no different than any other skill check.
3. If I fail to produce a poison (failed Craft check), how do I record the wasted material cost? Under "Items Bought", perhaps writing "steaming pile of junk"? ;)
I've never failed a check (always use take 10) but if I did, it'd write "failed craft check" and the gp lost.
4. If I apply some GM chronicles to my poisoner, can I "witness" my own Craft checks to make poisons? Or do I need to wait and then do a whole list of Craft checks before starting the next scenario I play? Does the answer to this question change based on whether or not I take 10?
I've never been entirely satisfied with the idea you can be your own GM, but since you can sign and initial your own chronicle sheet when earning GM credit, you can initial you saw your own roll too. But I always take 10 anyway.
EDIT: 5. More of a general rules question, but I had trouble finding it - can a single dose of poison only be applied to a single piece of ammunition, or can you poison a "batch", sort of like how some spells and such affect one melee weapon or a batch of ammo?
I believe it's one dose per piece of ammunition. If it's not, I have to wonder why drow don't put more doses of their weak sleep poison on their crossbow bolts.
EDIT EDIT: 6. Does the list of "always available" poisons apply to crafting as well, or only to purchases? That is, can I craft poisons other than the five listed in the FAQ?
I think it only applies to purchases. Since you are not purchasing when you are crafting, you can craft anything you can afford the materials for (and succeed on the check to craft). A bit moot though, since once you've earned a few PP all poisons are available anyway via your fame score.
