I'd say the act of folding and throwing a net while holding the trailing rope is completely different from swinging a butterfly net. They are two different weapons and thus have two different proficiencies.
That said, I have not clue if a butterfly net is a simple weapon or not.
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I'd say the act of folding and throwing a net while holding the trailing rope is completely different from swinging a butterfly net. They are two different weapons and thus have two different proficiencies.
That said, I have not clue if a butterfly net is a simple weapon or not.
nope not when acting on swarms:
Butterfly Net: One end of this 6-foot-long pole supports a wide metal hoop covered by a thin mesh net. You can use this to sift objects out from material capable of passing through the net such as sand or water. You can also use a butterfly net to capture Fine or Diminutive creatures as if it were a net (weapon), though you don't need to re-fold the butterfly net if you miss, and you use the handle of the butterfly net like you would the rope of a net weapon.
so it would act as a net - I would say the includes proficiency
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nope not when acting on swarms:...
so it would act as a net - I would say the includes proficiency
That really only suggests the effect the butterfly net has is the same as what happens as if you had used a net on it, not necessarily anything about having to be proficient with it. It's a different style of control over the "weapon", isn't it, in terms of catching something?
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That really only suggests the effect the butterfly net has is the same as what happens as if you had used a net on it, not necessarily anything about having to be proficient with it. It's a different style of control over the "weapon", isn't it, in terms of catching something?
it could be argued either way... my only question is what happens when you fill the butterfly net and 3/4 of the swarm is still there unentangled? My guess is that it should read: "You can also use a butterfly net to capture singleFine or Diminutive creatures as if it were a net (weapon)" but than again many swarms are tiny, and not fine or diminutive...
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That really only suggests the effect the butterfly net has is the same as what happens as if you had used a net on it, not necessarily anything about having to be proficient with it. It's a different style of control over the "weapon", isn't it, in terms of catching something?
IMO, that is really trying to argue the nuances of the English language and something that James Jacobs typically dismisses.
The strict RAW could be interpreted the way you indicate, but it seems clear that the RAI is the Butterfly net, used in this manner, functions as a weapon. After all, it being used as a weapon. Therefore, the proficiency rules should apply.
It does provide a specific exception to the general net rules such that you do not need to re-fold it between uses, but that does not imply the rest of the net rules do not apply.
EDIT--
Butterfly Net: One end of this 6-foot-long pole supports a wide metal hoop covered by a thin mesh net. You can use this to sift objects out from material capable of passing through the net such as sand or water. You can also use a butterfly net to capture Fine or Diminutive creatures as if it were a net (weapon), though you don't need to re-fold the butterfly net if you miss, and you use the handle of the butterfly net like you would the rope of a net weapon.
The item description clearly indicates that this is not meant to use against a 10ftx10ft swarm. Sorry, I would not allow it.
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Additionally:
Swarms are so difficult to deal with, at just about any level of the game, that I would have absolutely zero issue with allowing someone to use a buttlerfly net to "entangle" as per a net, a 5' square of the swarm. That just means that the swarm now only has 3, 5' squares remaining, and 3 more butterfly nets would suffice.
After all, it being used as a weapon. Therefore, the proficiency rules should apply.
I agree, but let me ask you this. How difficult is it to learn how to properly fold a net, to throw it so that the weights spin outward to open it, to get it to wrap around the target so that it is secure at the bottom for pulling by the rope? Worth a feat for the time and practice? I'd say yes.
Now how difficult is it to learn how to swing a butterfly net. It doesn't need to be prepped for use and it is on a solid stick you can control easier than a rope.
It most certainly NOT meant for swarms, but I also can't justify an exotic proficiency feat for it either. I'd call it a simple weapon since it is similar in use to a club.
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I disagree, a piton hammer is nothing but a small version of a warhammer, but it is not designed to be used as a weapon. Can it, sure, but since it is not designed for that purposed, I would rule it is an improvised weapon. The same would apply to a table leg, or an ale mug.
But IMO, it doesn't matter. Based on the description of the item, it is clearly not meant to be a counter to an inspect swarm. Maybe you could use it in response to a singular creature of fine or diminutive size, but not a swarm that is a collective creature, large in size.
It's totally for pixies, the lil buggers!
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Additionally:
Swarms are so difficult to deal with, at just about any level of the game, that I would have absolutely zero issue with allowing someone to use a buttlerfly net to "entangle" as per a net, a 5' square of the swarm. That just means that the swarm now only has 3, 5' squares remaining, and 3 more butterfly nets would suffice.
This is how Id handle it, though I would treat it as an improvised weapon.
Also, depending on the swarm and what insect it is, I might say it tries to chew through the net, dealing its normal damage to it. If it destroys the net, it goes free, and goes after the net user.
Also also, I might be willing to divide the swarms HP into 3/4 and 1/4 for the unnetted and netted sections of the swarm, respectively.
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I'm not sure what butterfly nets y'all have seen, but they do not, typically have a 5ft hoop with a huge net. I did some research and most are in the area of 12-16" in diameter. That is hardly large enough to be effective against a 5ft cube full of insects.
IMO, a butterfly net is just not suitable for use vs. swarms
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Venture-Lieutenant, California—Sacramento
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I'm not sure what butterfly nets y'all have seen, but they do not, typically have a 5ft hoop with a huge net. I did some research and most are in the area of 12-16" in diameter. That is hardly large enough to be effective against a 5ft cube full of insects.
IMO, a butterfly net is just not suitable for use vs. swarms
*Drum roll*
I agree with Bob.
It's totally for pixies, the lil buggers!
Just make sure you have an empty bottle to put the pixie in after you catch it!
lmao - I've been thinking that this entire thread!