How would you guys go about making a True Neutral Cleric of Urgathoa? What parts of the personality would make her NOT evil, but still keep her so that she won't lose her powers?
What kind of attitude should be expected from this kind of cleric? The few suggestions that I have heard of have varied in nature, but I can definitely see a fun-loving, rather hedonistic and gluttonous necromancer sort of cleric who dabbles in diseases and is good with the undead. Probably being raised in Geb would help with the backstory, but what do you guys think?
Thanks in advance!
Focus on stuff like gluttony, you just really really enjoy the finer things. Domains I would go with something like death domain (for a channel focus build) along with war or strength (for the battle cleric builds). If you want you can go all kinds of necromancy with this goddess.
That would be the only difference to an Evil one?
I mean, I am sure picking domains and builds isn't going to be a problem thanks to Tark's optimization guide. I'm more worried about the personality and chances to interact with the rest of the party, or should I say, the fluff.
I have a true neutral cleric of Urgathoa (Undead Lord archetpe) in a PFS campaign at the moment. I am basing him loosely on the necromancers of Hollowfaust (from Scarred Lands) where the attitude towards the dead is "waste not, want not". I also went with the Geb background.
...you speak alien to me. I know NOTHING of Hollowfaust or the Scarred lands.
Please, do explain in a bit more detail. I am sure the info will help, after all.
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I have considered a similar character, so maybe you can draw from this:
The character is a coward. They simply don't want to die, and are deathly afraid of it to the point that fending off death is the dominating force in their life. They try to ignore it by living it up, gluttony and the like, but their obsession with escaping death forces them back into the necromantic arts. Its not that they want others to suffer, just that anything is better than the deep dark abyss. Is that really so bad?
Love life, fear death? Sounds simple enough.
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Hollowfaustians live in the ruins of a long dead city that was recolonised some 150 years ago by a group of neutral aligned necromancers that just wanted a place to study their art in a place free of persecution from those that fear them.
Their entire way of life is dependent on necromancy and the animated dead. The constant presence of death gives them a fatalistic attitude towards life and death, basicly "we are a long time in the grave, so enjoy life now" sort of thing.
Necromancy is treated as more of a science, without any moral concerns, and any new discoveries are put towards the good of the city, hence why despite the evil descriptor in many of the necromancy spells, the practicioners themselves have remained neutral. Pretty much what Trikk said before.
one other thing that might make the character sum to True N yet still mesh well with an evil deity and a good pary.
When everything is good, acts like NG. But when her own neck is on the line, and push comes to shove, have her be willing to throw others into the Dragon's maw to save herself in a way no good character would do. Should come to an N is done with proper moderation.
Depending on the maturity of your table you could also play up the S&M side of Urgathoa's worship.
Model your cleric after Lady Heather from CSI.
I thought Zzon-Kuthom had the dominion over S&M
Not exactly. Zon-Kuthon has dominion over pain, Calistria has dominion over lust, and Urgaathoa has dominion over sexual excess.
All three overlap, and compete for worshipers, but there's a difference in intent.
I can't help but think of Rilian from the webcomic Dominic Deegan. Anyone?
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How would you guys go about making a True Neutral Cleric of Urgathoa? What parts of the personality would make her NOT evil, but still keep her so that she won't lose her powers?
What kind of attitude should be expected from this kind of cleric? The few suggestions that I have heard of have varied in nature, but I can definitely see a fun-loving, rather hedonistic and gluttonous necromancer sort of cleric who dabbles in diseases and is good with the undead. Probably being raised in Geb would help with the backstory, but what do you guys think?
Being raised in Geb, IMO, would be a step backwards. Geb is not just an evil nation, but it is one whose basic tenets (the living are cattle, raised to serve the hungers of the undead) require a full-throated endorsement of evil principles.
Ways to look at her three central 'portfolios;'
1) Gluttony can be a selfish and destructive force, when dealing with nations and cultures where food can be scarce, and many go hungry. At the same time, it is a holy thing to Urgathoa, and, therefore, a 'godly' thing, to feed one's hunger. Stuffing oneself can be seen as not just feeding oneself, but also making sacrament to the goddess, and, by proxy, feeding her as well, sharing every bite, every taste, every sensation, with the goddess, as a prayerful act of obeisance. To those who go hungry, their hunger too is a holy thing, a trial imposed upon them by the goddess, who is as consecrated by their pangs of hunger as she is by the full bellies of those who are more successful, and, therefore, *obviously,* more deserving. (Since, like the wretched poor, anyone who is hungry is clearly lazy and undeserving of a full belly. Tell the bums to get a job!)
2) Disease is a proving ground. Like war, like nature, like predators, like storms, like famine, the existence of disease winnows out the weak (and / or foolish) and strengthens the entire race. A plague is a forge, that burns away the rotten ore of a community, and leaves behind only those with a constitution of shining steel, fit to repopulate the community with the blood of the strong and the hale. It is no more evil than war, or a hungry lion, or the treacherous sea, all forces that also serve to cull the unfit from the human pack, and so make the races of man stronger, healthier and more deserving of (eventually) eternity, than those who fell to these worldly threats (which, in most cases, are no threat at all to the undead, leading us to point 3). As with hunger, being ill is a sign of disfavor, but remember that Urgathoa is a god, not a mortal, and her ways are sometimes fickle or obscure to our eyes. Even her most beloved may suffer a terrible illness, not as punishment, but as *lesson.* Just as Zon-Kuthon may 'bless' those he especially loves with excruciating torments, so too may Rovagug savagely destroy those followers he most treasures, and Urgathoa place the scars of pox on the faces of her favored mortal children.
3) The undead. Some small-minded simpletons who know nothing of the way the world works may call them 'unnatural.' Nothing that exists in nature can be, by definition, 'unnatural.' Negative energy from another dimension infuses the undead, granting them animation, and a semblance of 'life.' But what is 'life?' It is meat and blood and bone given animation by 'unnatural' positive energy, from another dimension. Meat and blood and bone, given animation, by positive energy, or negative energy. Neither is 'natural' to the material plane, and undeath, as a state of being, is not evil. It does indeed defy the 'law' of Pharasma, who, being a goddess of scoffs at universal law, or the tenets of mortal morality, is something of a hypocrite to attempt to impose her own (utter lack of) morality or ethics on others.
But flipping non-good, non-lawful Pharasma the bird and refusing to 'go gently into that good night' is neither evil nor chaotic. It's merely disrespectful, or, to an Urgathoan, at worst, cheeky.
Unlike the living, whose fragile state of animation from unnatural otherdimensional positive energy is so unstable that they are required every day of their lives to kill and devour countless other living creatures, both vegetable and animal (and, occasionally, sentient, in the case of orcs, trolls, ogres, wyverns, dragons, etc.), a successful undead creature (such as a mummy or lich) is self-sustaining, requiring nothing but negative energy to remain animate and conscious. No slaughter and devouring of life, crunching bones and rending meat to eke out scraps of positive energy, to maintain the successful undead. (That being said, there are *unsuccessful* undead states. Ghouls and vampires share that weakness inherent to positive-energy-animated creatures, a need to devour the flesh of others, although vampires are still more successful than humans, in that they don't actually have to *kill anything* to continue functioning, perhaps even for millenia Also note that there are successful and stable positive energy creatures as well. Most outsiders have no need to kill and eat other living creatures to maintain their existences, for example.).
Picking viewpoints like these can make it relatively easy to make a non-evil Urgathoan. He might be selfish, he might eat more than his fair share (but, really, who decides what a 'fair share' is anyway? Socialist claptrap!), he might look forward to pushing the positive energy out of his body and replacing it with negative energy, and wax philosophical about the superiority of negative energy (no more aging, no more disease, no more fatigue, no more hunger, no more thirst, no more worries about losing his hair, or getting fat, or suffering from heatstroke or hypothermia or suffocation).
As long as he doesn't run around being actively malevolent (inflicting diseases on random people for evil lulz, or animating people's grandparents for no sensible mechanical / optimal reason, or killing a bunch of people and making them into hors d'ouvres and serving them to their relatives), none of which make any mechanical sense in game anyway, he can maintain a neutral alignment.
Indeed, his interests could easily be exploited towards good (or at least, beneficial) ends. A fascination with death could lead to him being a masterful forensics investigator, or a charming and well-practiced funerary director. Interest in foodstuffs could lend itself to preparing and presenting a wide range of meals, and he might even go so far as to learn various techniques of running a farm, and be able to help in agricultural matters (particularly in the area of preparing food and protecting livestock / crops from disease or blights!). His interest in disease will likely lead to a decent Heal skill, and an encyclopedic understanding of various illnesses and how to treat them, making him an excellent doctor. He might not be the most *pleasant* doctor, as he might openly admire the illness he's treating, while having more interest in the patients gold, than the patient themself, but he will get the job done, as a healer who allows his patients to die doesn't get paid, and, particularly if rumors spread that his cure is worse than the disease itself, could end up burning on a witch-pyre!
Enlightened self-interest should encourage him to be helpful and friendly and indispensable to his allies, until such a time as that pesky 'mortality' problem has been addressed, preferably by attaining lichdom.
All really good suggestions, so now to move to the next part...
...should I go full Cleric (and if I do, what build? Battle or Support Cleric?), Wizard (Necromancer of course, maybe even the Thassilonian specialist variety from Inner Sea Magic) or Mystic Theurge with a mix of Cleric and Wizard?
Just opinions on what might help make a strong (but not overtly so) and enjoyable build both game and story wise. Part of me would want her to get a familiar, but a pet Ferret instead of an actual familiar works too. Now, I just need to see if any DM would let me play this character...
Unless all you want out of your character is a shedload of lower level spells then I'd stay away from mystic theurge.
If you're going to go into the whole animating focused aspect of Urgathoa then I would make a more support based cleric than battle. Let the stenches risk their unlives while you take a step back and either buff or heal them (via negative channel).
Mind you this approach is usually best for smaller parties, otherwise you may find that each combat round last about half an hour and the rest of the party start to look annoyed as you and your army of darkness are taking up all the gaming time.
I think I'd rather not have her animating legions of undead too often, not just because the players will be annoyed, but also because it might turn many people hostile in an instant (especially in areas like Ustalav or Lastwall). Then again, the Undeath Lord can keep one undead companion with her and destroy it with a Standard Action, right? Getting rid of the evidence after a fight should be easy.
Necromancy can make a killer debuffer as well.
I figured as much. Personally I like playing the dodgiest looking geezer I can think of (A guy in black tattered clerical robes wearing a symbol of the goddess of undeath and directing the actions of a warband of slavering undead abominations certainly qualifies) but that's just me.
Oh and offensive channeled energy rocks!
If working with undead is going to be a problem of any kind to the GM or other players then you might want your cleric ignore that aspect entirely and focus more on the gluttony. Make a jovial fat guy who considers it disrespectful not to cook up and eat everything he kills...Everything.
You'll need maxed out ranks in Profession: Cook and something that gives you poison resistance. And check out the Toriko manga for some inspiration.
So everyone talks about offensive channel clerics with the death domain, I'm assuming that they want the negative energy affinity???
They can't actually channel negative to harm living, and benefit healing himself right???
Because you actually have to choose to harm(living), or heal(undead/yourself)?
Say you have a skeleton minion nearby, you can't channel to harm living and heal yourself and minion at the same time...you would have to choose to heal undead to Benefit you and the minion?
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I thought clerics could not be N unless their deity was too?
That was a rule in 3.5 ["A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral."], but that line was not included in Pathfinder.
It's certainly a popular house rule, I suspect, as it might feel unthematic for a cleric of Gorum to be non-chaotic, or a follower of Abadar to be non-lawful, or a follower of Shelyn to be non-good, or Norgorber non-evil.
You can be one away on either alignment axis.
They can benefit from negative energy through the deaths kiss ability (through undead subdomain) or if 8th level+ then they can benefit from it automatically.
You would not need to max out poison resistance, clerics of Urgathoa can spontaneously cast purify food an drink as a 1st level spell anyway (if they didn't get it as an orison at the start of the day).
If I were to picture one of Urgathoa's faithful going out into polite society, I would imagine he/she would coach their excess and hedonism in the terms of worshiping a goddess of plenty rather a goddess of excess. I seem to recall reading an article on Urgathoa awhile back describing her as basically something of an evil party girl. Her vileness is one of cheerful indulgence without restraint, not necessarily one of malice. She's almost too self-focused for that, lashing out only in retaliation against those who (may in good purpose) attack her or whom "mislead" the people with things like asceticism.
There was a thread not too long ago about how an antipaladin would fit in an adventuring group about doing "good" things to serve their ulterior motives (perhaps sometimes delusionally?). Whereas most of it was tongue in cheek, I think the approach could be potentially useful here. First of all, I would think that Urgathoa (or some part of her) would have some interest in encouraging gluttony in not merely the individual self but the community (or segments within it she could reach) as a whole. Things like feasting, festivals and such can have a very social orientation to them in the quasi-medieval fantasy society. Because part of her is described rotting away, I get the sense that experiencing excess in a vicarious way would be an activity she would be interested in. One could make the argument that if more people are hedonists, Urgathoa would be more pleased. With her recognition of marriage as a sort of bond to experience sensual fulfillment with another, it would seem Urgathoa would have the capability of recognizing excess on more than merely an individual level.
Of course, if we take the view that hedonism should be denied to no man or woman who truly desires it, then something's clearly gotta give here with the traditional doctrine of excess as merely an entirely self-oriented activity. But this brings me to my next point. I would think the enlightened gourmand (that is, one who has a High Wisdom, Sense Motive as a class skill, and who receives miraculous visions from a goddess on high) might become just as much or even more concerned with the means of producing the objects of consumption being as efficient as possible as she would be seizing all of it for herself. Gluttony doesn't have to always be about seizing the largest part of the pie for yourself- it can also be about making the pie larger overall. Certainly if you appear to be helping people (even for perhaps selfish reasons), one could argue you'll get a lot less resistance than you would if you just tried stealing all their crap. Magic in a highly magical society makes it relatively easy to produce enough food to feed many on demand (create food and water) and making such fair highly enjoyable is even easier (the cantrip spell can flavor things). It's more or less a doctrine of working smarter, not harder.
The key thing here is that greed and gluttony are not necessarily the same thing. They may even be at odds- greed is more about holding onto things; gluttony is about consuming them. So basically, if you approach gluttony from the aspect of consuming more than hoarding from others (provided you're making things so outrageously plentiful by the time you run out you'll have long overfilled yourself), you can reach a code of behavior that might resemble a sort of pseudo-altruism. Putting some degree of seeming virtue (as twisted as it might be) into your vice.
And if nothing else, the good PR you'd give to the cause probably wouldn't hurt.
Being raised in Geb, IMO, would be a step backwards. Geb is not just an evil nation, but it is one whose basic tenets (the living are cattle, raised to serve the hungers of the undead) require a full-throated endorsement of evil principles.
This isn't the whole picture on Geb. The laws of the land give the living and the dead equal rights (in theory) unless they are slaves (such as all unintelligent undead and living slaves).
There are farms to raise chattel slaves to feed the nations undead, but there are also free living citizens.
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I've got a true Neutral channeling build that I've been playing in PFS a bit. He focuses on the disease aspect of Urgathoa, very politely asking every one of his adventuring buddies if they'd like to experience the wonder that is one of the many diseases he carries. His goal is to show others the weakness of living bodies so that they may ascend to the glory of undeath. He wears one of those long-nosed doctor's masks. Very creepy.