spalding |
Hm... I'm torn -- the witch has some great abilities and spells... but lacks finishing power. The wizard has a good power curve. I like familiars and with the one archetype a witch can be almost impossible to kill.
For a party build I would probably go with witch. As a solo build... I'm not so sure, wizards are rather good.
For a 'non-pure' I would probably look to pathfinder savant and it would entirely depend on what I'm feeling that day.
Dire Mongoose |
I have to say Wizard just because they have that much broader of a spell list (even factoring in that Witch gets some nice things that aren't on the Wizard list). There's just too much good stuff that's only on one or two Patron lists, and you only get to pick one.
I don't think the Witch is in any way a weak class and in many encounters I wouldn't be surprised to see it outperform the Wizard -- but when push comes to shove I think the Wizard is still king..
BYC |
Wizard.
Witches are better at low levels due to their hexes, but they are missing so many utility spells and defensive spells that it's really frustrating to play later on. My level 14 witch in RotRL is doing fine, but I am always missing spells that would greatly speed up the process or would solve problems better all the time.
Heal is a great help, but not getting spells like invisibility (without the deception patron), stone skin, all the level 2 ability buffs, etc, really drives me insane. Threefold Aspect is one hell of a great buff however, and wizards can't cast that.
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Healing is not the strong point of the witch, powerful supernatural single-target SoBS tecniques are. Neither is direct damage the power of the Wizard, rather his superior versatility with powerful spells.
I'd rather play a Witch, but at lvl 20 you have so many spells as a Wizard that you can have a ton of fun with it as well. Not much need to hold back.
BYC |
Healing is not the strong point of the witch, powerful supernatural single-target SoBS tecniques are. Neither is direct damage the power of the Wizard, rather his superior versatility with powerful spells.
I'd rather play a Witch, but at lvl 20 you have so many spells as a Wizard that you can have a ton of fun with it as well. Not much need to hold back.
Yeah I find facing opponents that are immune to sleep or mind-affecting pretty brutal on my witch. I don't have Misfortune (no real reason, I screwed up something, and it slipped my mind). I usually try to follow up with Agony or Retribution, but they just aren't effective as Sleep hex or Hold Person/Monster/Mass Hold Person. And since there's like almost no buff or control spells, I kind of just stand there. At least with undead I can use my Cures to hurt them.
ShadowcatX |
Petty Alchemy wrote:Yeah I find facing opponents that are immune to sleep or mind-affecting pretty brutal on my witch. I don't have Misfortune (no real reason, I screwed up something, and it slipped my mind). I usually try to follow up with Agony or Retribution, but they just aren't effective as Sleep hex or Hold Person/Monster/Mass Hold Person. And since there's like almost no buff or control spells, I kind of just stand there. At least with undead I can use my Cures to hurt them.Healing is not the strong point of the witch, powerful supernatural single-target SoBS tecniques are. Neither is direct damage the power of the Wizard, rather his superior versatility with powerful spells.
I'd rather play a Witch, but at lvl 20 you have so many spells as a Wizard that you can have a ton of fun with it as well. Not much need to hold back.
Summon Monster I - IX, sleet storm, black tentacles, antipathy, charm X, and plenty of other spells would beg to disagree with "there's almost no control spells." (And that's in a moment's glance.)
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Petty Alchemy wrote:Yeah I find facing opponents that are immune to sleep or mind-affecting pretty brutal on my witch. I don't have Misfortune (no real reason, I screwed up something, and it slipped my mind). I usually try to follow up with Agony or Retribution, but they just aren't effective as Sleep hex or Hold Person/Monster/Mass Hold Person. And since there's like almost no buff or control spells, I kind of just stand there. At least with undead I can use my Cures to hurt them.Healing is not the strong point of the witch, powerful supernatural single-target SoBS tecniques are. Neither is direct damage the power of the Wizard, rather his superior versatility with powerful spells.
I'd rather play a Witch, but at lvl 20 you have so many spells as a Wizard that you can have a ton of fun with it as well. Not much need to hold back.
It's a bad idea to double up with spells on things your hexes already do. There's also Ice Tomb, which just doesn't care if the creature can be mind-affected or not. ShadowCat has mentioned some other control spells you can use, like Tentacles. Glitterdust and Web are solid low-level spells to toss around as well.
Using Cure Spells on undead is a huge waste of your resources, because
A) They don't do that much anyway, except Heal
B) There's a save to reduce the pitiful damage by even more
C) You want to get into melee and touch (or send your living spellbook to touch for you) a horrible abomination that probably inflicts very nasty effects in melee?
Stick with Retribution against undead if you have it.
Buri |
The Thanatopic and Threnodic metamagic feats make undead pretty much like everything else.
Personally, I think the Witch ultimately wins out because of the Hexes. A Wizard can be exhausted of spells and scrolls but hexes are nonstop. By time you're level 20 you've got a pretty good range to pick from so I doubt you'd exhaust your entire repertoire against a single enemy. Combined with the ability for your familiar to eat scrolls to learn new spells, putting your entire list at your disposal in a very realistic way, makes for an exceptionally mean casty also considering that the Witch spell list grabs from other classes lists as well so it has a unique blend of options you don't see with other caster classes. The selection for the Wizard is still superior though and there are some spells I REALLY wish the Witch could gain access to without scrolls or items. That said, with the right amount of gold the Witch can have pretty much anything enchanted with any spell so that doesn't really limit anything. At best it just means you have to seek out a Wizard to create a magic item for you and given the wide array of enchantment hexes and spells a Witch has it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to compel one to do it if they wouldn't do it willingly.
Other arcane casters I honestly don't think compare to the Witch or Wizard. I think the Wizard would ultimately win out if there were ever a Witch versus Wizard world-scale war if nothing for the simple fact that Wizards take lairs, demiplanes and arcane study as their life-bread whereas Witches have been relegated mostly outside society so they haven't had the tools available to Wizards nearly as readily or on as large of a scale. Even that said there is Baba Yaga who, in one day, conquered a nation and enslaved its people. I don't know any Wizard tales that are as epic if you don't count feats of raw magical strength such as creating a new planet, or similarly destroying one, but rather look at raw mastery of ones craft. Both Wizards and Witches can create demiplanes though so each can create their own sanctuary disconnected from the material plane.
Perhaps I put too much stock into Hexes but there isn't any other caster class out there with such a wide variety of supernatural options that you can pick and choose from. Other classes dictate which supernatural abilities their classes get. The Witch can be tailored.
spalding |
I don't know Buri -- having a Generalist with the magecraft amulet can really up your versatility, and having a Teleport Subschool guy can be just as nasty when he has a permanent trumpet archon with him (especially if he has a familiar too).
I would really call it a toss up in the long run personally.
Buri |
I don't know Buri -- having a Generalist with the magecraft amulet can really up your versatility, and having a Teleport Subschool guy can be just as nasty when he has a permanent trumpet archon with him (especially if he has a familiar too).
I would really call it a toss up in the long run personally.
Very true.
LazarX |
If you had to choose between a level 20 Witch versus a level 20 Wizard considering all RAW abilities and gear, which would you choose?
I'll withhold my vote until after several posts so as not to dissuade initial readings with my opinion. :)
Witch only because it's the road less traveled. It really really depends on what type of character you want to play... they're not really the same.
Buri |
No, they're not. Each are capable of their own flavors of pure awesome. So, I wanted to see what people would say if they had to choose between the two. I am unsure why this was moved to Advice. I read my OP and, to me, it's clearly setting up a discussion rather than "hey what's this" or "how do I do that" sort of post.
*shrugs shoulders*
LazarX |
There's no objective way to say that one is a "better" choice because it depends on the moving goalposts of personal preferences and aims. I want my next character to be a witch because I've already played tons of Wizards. That doesn't mean I consider one "better".
I can't tell what your goal posts are OP. It could very well be that you haven't set them yourself.
Buri |
I would actually think the Wizard would be most likely to win regardless because Witch's don't get Contingency. That said, even with Hex's, the most "guaranteed to win" hexes like Control Weather or Natural Disaster take a long time to execute. That said, would a Witch be more likely to go first? They can select the green scorpion familiar which gives a +2 to initiative. Does the Wizard have something similar?
LazarX |
I would actually think the Wizard would be most likely to win regardless because Witch's don't get Contingency. That said, even with Hex's, the most "guaranteed to win" hexes like Control Weather or Natural Disaster take a long time to execute. That said, would a Witch be more likely to go first? They can select the green scorpion familiar which gives a +2 to initiative. Does the Wizard have something similar?
He's got better. He's the Diviner specialist who automatically wins inititative. What he doesn't know however is that the Witch was savvy enough to obey her visions and with some friends she's prepared a little voodoo doll surprise. :)
So it's either rocket tag, who who prepares better beforehand.
Diabhol |
If you had to choose between a level 20 Witch versus a level 20 Wizard considering all RAW abilities and gear, which would you choose?
If I don't have to consider anyone else? Wizard, because I've never played a straight Wizard.
If I'm in a group where there's already an arcane caster or there's no Cleric/Oracle/Druid? Witch. It seems like they cover *every* freakin' base. That's pretty badass.