Goblin Squad Member
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Now, I can't program a DVD Recorder, let alone an MMO, so take this as the ramblings of a Gamer with an in-heat Cat climbing up and down his legs like the unholy offspring of Freddy Krueger and a Furry and a light fever.
Consider the game starts, you pick your race, facial details, body type, gender etc. You then get to pick one of five 'Avatars'. The Warrior, the Thief, the Mage, the Priest and the Jack-of-all-Trades.
The Warrior grants you the best melee/ranged attack bonus in the game and the most robust health, but your reflexes and will-saves are nothing to boast about and you have little innate talent for magic.
The Thief grants you the middle-ground melee/ranged attack bonus, excellent reflexes and direct access to the ability to Stealth and Use Poison, but your constitution and will-saves are somewhat lacking, and again, magic is not your forte.
The Mage grants you the worst possible melee/ranged attack bonus, but you are able to wield the Arcane Arts like a Warrior swings his sword! Your mind is a bastion against all assaults, you have full spellcasting ability, but you're about as tough and agile as one of your precious books....
The Priest has access to the middle-group melee/ranged attack bonus, and excellent constitution and will-saves and the fortifying powers of the Gods flow through like like a river, but you're none too agile and you need a free hand to cast spells, and the Divine Gifts are notoriously lacking in offensive spells.....
the Jack-of-all-Trades has access to the middle-group melee/ranged attack bonus, decent saves across the board and a fairly good aptitude at spells. What you lack is true mastery of any of these things. Warriors will always be able to out-fight you, Thieves will be able to out-flank and stealth you, Mages will be able to out-blast and -summon you and Priests will be able to heal longer, better and faster.
From any of those five 'Avatars', you can specialize into any 'Class' you want once level 4 or 5 is gained.
Is your warrior a man who wants to become the best there ever was with a Longsword and a Tower Shield? Go Fighter, and then later on pick up the 'Stalwart Defender' perks/skills/focuses and go for your life. Want to be the guy at the front shouting orders and telling everyone what to do (granting buffs) pick up the Cavalier path (obviously with a focus on Teamwork feats/perks/skills instead of mounted combat).
Obvious 'Class Paths' I can see. Warrior: Fighter, Barbarian, Cavalier/Samurai, Gunslinger.
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Is your Jack of all Trades looking to specialize and focus his many talents? Go Bard to be a second-line fighter and all-round buffer and trouble-spotter. Go Alchemist for some explosively good times. Go Magus and make the Mage and Warrior green with envy. Go Inquisitor to make the heretics sweat holy-water. Any of those paths allows your JoaT to fulfill any number of roles in an adventuring party without tying yourself down to a single 'role'.
Obvious 'Class Paths' I can see. Jack of all Trades: Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus.
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Your Thief wants to make her mark? Follow the Dark Path and become an Assassin feared for the ability to kill with a single strike, or become a master tracker and hunter of men and beasts as a Ranger. Perhaps the Spiritual Path appeals to you, so become a Monk attain enlightenment, or maybe you prefer a bit of good old fashioned bedlam and larceny as a Rogue? Regardless of your choice, you'll seldom be the front-man in combat, but your actions will nevertheless always help shape the fate of your comrades.
Obvious 'Class Paths' that I can see. Thief: Rogue, Assassin/Ninja, Monk, Ranger.
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Does you Mage seek ever greater paths to the ultimate mastery of the Arcane? Does she seek out dusty tomes and focus upon a singular school of magic, or does she awaken a hidden magic within her own blood? Does the binding of a powerful creature to your side appeal to you, or does trafficking with ancient and mysterious spirits call to your true nature? Wether you become a force of elemental destruction, a mysterious healer who spurns the Divine or the master of a ferocious monster, the choice is yours.
Obvious 'Class Paths' that I can see. Mage: Wizard (Specialise in one 'School' of magic, take penalties to two others), Sorcerer (lose the ability to learn every spell but gain more magic-points and supernatural 'gifts'), Summoner (lose a great deal of outright offensive spells but gain a powerful monster companion and a modicium of melee/ranged talent and more hitpoints) or Witch (lose a great deal of outright Damage spells but gain great mastery over spells that bewitch and befuddle, and gain the ability to heal and hex your friends and foes!).
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Many things test your Priest's Faith, and in time she will turn to the Gods for greater strength to see her comrades through their adventures. Wether you become a powerful but cursed Oracle, a stout-hearted Cleric, a Righteous Paladin (or a Foul Anti-Paladin) or the wise and mighty Druid, only the Gods can say for sure....
Obvious 'Class Paths' I can see. Priest: Oracle (powerful divinations that grant insight into the enemy and challenges ahead, and a mixed bag of specialisations available, but the Curses bestowed upon the Oracle can punish them severely if ignore), Cleric (A fairly obvious choice for healing and outright secondary combatant), Paladin/Anti-Paladin (Either path sacrifices a great deal of Spellcasting Ability for the ability to rival even the brawniest Fighter in close combat, along with powerful supernatural abilities tied to their respective paths) and the Druid (less healing ability than either the Oracle or Cleric, but makes up for it with a broader array of attack spells and the ability to transform into powerful animals and summon nature's allies to your cause for brief periods).
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Now something else that came to mind, but when you first 'start' your character, you pick 'farmland', 'forest', 'village' or 'city' as your starting region. Depending upon your Avatar choice, you get a selection of 'professions' you can choose to do.
For example, let's say a Warrior chooses 'Village'. Village 'Profession' are 'Guard', 'Militia Member', 'Thug' or 'Villager'. Each of these selections, as well as your starting zone, add a set of hidden attributes to your character that will affect how NPCs react to you at first, and then modify later reactions when your PC is more (in)famous, powerful and the like. Actions taken during the first Day and Night of your Character's life in their Starting Region (which should not interact with other players just yet) further modify these 'Hidden Stats' and help shape your character in subtle ways that help define him as different from the next sword-swinger.
Also these hidden stats continue to accrue through-out the game. I'm not talking Alignment here, that's a separate conversation, but let's say you're the Warrior from the 'Village' with a Profession in 'Thug'. People are a little bit put off by your attitude at first, but after your choices in the village led to a bandit raid that killed several Villagers, you're much more careful about who you take jobs from and are determined to wipe out every Bandit you come across. You sit down in the tavern, order a beer and a meal and overhear two NPCs talking about you.
"Hey, it's that guy from X Village! Yeah, he's mean as a cut snake, but he's a good man under all that, goes out and sticks it to the Bandits and Monster like a real hero should!"
While these 'Hidden Stats' should influence NPCs and either help or hinder certain skill-checks, at not stage should they be outright hinderances to the game. Let's say each stat is a %, based upon your race, gender, avatar, starting region and starting profession. A Half-Orc or Dwarf Warrior 'Thug' from the 'Village' would naturally gain a higher % towards being intimidating and similar in comparison to an Gnome or a Half-Elf, but we're talking a % of .5 or so here. Enough so that there is a minor difference without it being a collossal "TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!! You picked the Gimp Choices!" from the NPCs and Game-In-General.
What do you guys think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your class path system is something that several different games have. Later being able to specialize further into more specific things. But ultimately it will have to adapt to a skill based system.
For example, your warrior could start with maybe 30 skill points in a weapon of his choice, perhaps some skill points in riding, shield use, or something along those lines. Mage with points into Spellcasting, Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana. You get where I'm going with this I'm sure.
Your hidden data idea seems to function much like reputation systems in other games. I'm all for it. I enjoy reputation systems as long as they actually make a difference. If you piss off one town enough, it stands to reason that you won't be allowed to enter. And if you do happen to make it in, guards will attack and/or arrest you on sight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mmmmm, it was just something that percolated at the back of my head during work. Hooray for 12 hour work days.
Yes, While the 'Avatar' system sets you on a certain 'path', using Skills to level can open up 'Class Paths', but at the same point you could be a 15th level Warrior with skills in Sneak, Use Magic and Knowledge:Local and still be nearly as effective as a 'Fighter' or a 'Barbarian' to your party-mates.
It's less a 'hey dump the skill system' but rather, giving people used to 'Class X for this role, Class Y for that role' something to anchor themselves to. I love Skyrim's system of going out and being able to kick arse no matter how I play, but a friend of mine who picked it up and started off from first level couldn't handle that absolute freedom. He just ... tried to do everything all at once and kept on dying.
Maybe it could be a choice? Pick an Avatar to help 'point out' which Skills will help build your desired Character, or for the more experienced Gamer, dodge the Avatar and make your own Character from scratch.
Sounds like a good start for making a PRG version of Final Fantast Tactics, thou I think that discussion is already going elsewhere on the boards.
Maybe this gets to be the web based mini game we play at work...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can definitely see "preset" starter packages of skills for those who do not want or care to do the thoughtful work themselves of distributing skills. This would assume you are given x number of skill points at character creation. These packages, once selected, could also make "suggestions" to the distribution of future skill points. I could even see the option to "hide" all skills that are not stereotypical for a selected class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe this?
Let's say we have skills as normal, you start off with 10 Skill Points to assign as you wish, but Ride and Appraise are removed, Knowledge is condensed down into a single skill, and the following skills are added Armor (Light), (Medium), (Heavy) and (Shield), Weapons (Light, One Handed), (One Handed), (Two Handed), (Bows and Crossbows), (Guns), (Exotic One Handed) and (Exotic Two Handed). Spells are added under Spellcraft, which is expanded into Spellcraft (Abjuration), (Evocation), (Necromancy) and the like, so that what a person does repeatedly in the game helps to 'build' their character.
Each Character is given 20 points to 'build' their Ability Scores....
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Avatar Choice Character: You want to build a character this way, so the game auto-arranges Ability Scores and places points in the relevant skills.
For example, you want a Fighter eventually, so you click the Avatar toggle and it gives you Str 16 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 and (Utility Skills) Climb (1), Craft (1), Intimidate (1), Survival (1) and (Combat Skills) Armor (Light) (1), Armor (Medium) (1), Armor (shield) (1), Weapon (One-Handed) (1), Weapon (Two-Handed) (1), Weapon (Bows and Crossbows) (1).
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Freeform Choice Character: You will play and become whatever your choices will make of you, so the game leaves you to build your character as you will.
You want to make an agility-based Martial Combatant with some talent for stealth and inter-personal skills, so you build:
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 13 and (Utility Skills) Acrobatics (1), Bluff (1), Diplomacy (1), Intimidate (1), Knowledge (1) and (Combat Skills) Armor (Light) (1) Weapon (One-Handed) (1), Weapon (Bows and Crossbows) (1), Stealth (1) and Spellcraft (Illusion) (1).
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Now these are just some random thoughts, I can see plenty of problems, for example how would one create the Sneak Attack function as a Skill? Every man and his dog who engaged in some form of melee or non-magical ranged combat would throw Skillpoints into that! How do you put Poison Use into a Skill? Or Favoured Enemy or Smite or Stunning Fist or Bard Abilites?
Sneak Attack would probably work the same way it always does, meaning when you can catch your opponent off-guard and only while they are off-guard. (I strongly suspect the flanking aspect would be removed or at least reduced.) Thus it's good for sniping or the first shot out of an ambush, but it's not going to be a constant stream of bonus damage.
I rather liked the way Dragon Age: Origins handled backstabbing, and could see it as a possible stand-in for flanking. While this wouldn't provide benefit both melee fighters, it would at least benefit one of them.
HOHM, I like the idea of having 'recommended' builds available, and I think what you have is on a good track.
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Goblin Squad Member
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skill stuff
I think it's already been stated that PFO is going to be stepping away from the table top mechanics in many ways. The things you mention are probably a few of them. But there's always the option to make things available as you reach certain levels of skills. Smite for example could require a Charisma of a certain amount, combined with x amount of combat skill and x amount of say religion skill. Bard abilities could become available as you hit certain marks in your perform skills. Sneak attack could be reached at certain levels of stealth and combat. Favored enemy I can't come up with off the top of my head, but maybe something like so much in knowledge nature and then having killed a certain enemy type so many times.
The options are really endless.