Aasimar and Tieflings are outsiders which, with the GMs permission, can be played as early as level 1. All outsiders are proficient with simple and martial weapons as per their creature type.
I am considering making a Tiefling Evoker 5 or Necromancer 5, who then goes straight into Eldritch Knight levels.
This is allowed, right?
Also, provided that it is, what might a good build look like?
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This is about as offical as we can on the subject.
Tieflings don't have racial hit dice, they advance by character class. So they don't actually get the outsider proficiencies.
Well, barring Jason showing up to chime in on this topic, the way I'd handle it (at my table) is saying that darkvision and the like comes from race, so you get it with just being the race (i.e. outsider), but proficiencies normally come with class (i.e. hit dice) and therefore you need actual hit dice to get them.
Ok course if your DM is willing to let you have those proficiencies then that's up to him.
I think you have to have a racial hit die for that to work.
Correct. If you look up Aasimar, the Aasimar as Character's does not list any weapon proficiencies. That means they don't get any from race. Same for Tieflings.
As others have said native outsider or those with no HD do not gain the weapon proficiency of an outsider.
Good point, I was thinking of those native outsiders with no HD
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The 3.5 FAQ says they do in fact get the weapon proficiencies.
Of course those were for tieflings, aasimar, and genasi as LA +1 races, not the (roughly) equivalent races that they are now. Until we get a ruling from Jason (or maybe from Skip in KQ) I dunno what to say here. I don't know if I'd allow it in my games.
The 3.5 FAQ says they do in fact get the weapon proficiencies.
Of course those were for tieflings, aasimar, and genasi as LA +1 races, not the (roughly) equivalent races that they are now. Until we get a ruling from Jason (or maybe from Skip in KQ) I dunno what to say here. I don't know if I'd allow it in my games.
Well the 3.5 FAQ is not the pathfinder FAQ for one and in the FR books they did not gain them. So take it for what ya will
Well the 3.5 FAQ is not the pathfinder FAQ for one and in the FR books they did not gain them. So take it for what ya willThe 3.5 FAQ says they do in fact get the weapon proficiencies.
Of course those were for tieflings, aasimar, and genasi as LA +1 races, not the (roughly) equivalent races that they are now. Until we get a ruling from Jason (or maybe from Skip in KQ) I dunno what to say here. I don't know if I'd allow it in my games.
the ones in the FR books had the Humanoid (Planetouched) type.
the outsiser proficiencies do not specify that you need racial hit dice to have them. the eldritch knight is already suboptimal. the classes that don't have those proficiencies don't really benefit greatly from them, as they have reduced base attack bonus and can dump strength. becoming an eldritch knight 1 level early is nothing gamebreaking. especially as you are increasing abnormally unsynergistic stats anyway. especially if you cast spells.
the ones in the FR books had the Humanoid (Planetouched) type.
Not in my book, they are listed as Outsider(Native).
Pathfinder tieflings and aasimars get weapon proficiencies based on their class; they have no racial Hit Dice, and thus don't gain the standard outsider proficiency with all weapons.
Where does one draw the line in regards to other outsider/native outsider traits?
As it's been shown repeated times, you're completely wrong on this. Your profiecincies as a Bestiary monster are dependent on your HD type.
Er...It's been a long time since I've believed that, Lazar, and I never once pressed the matter once the developers made it clear that they were CHANGING the rules from the way v3.5 did it.
I'm simply asking for clarification on where one should draw the line.
As it's been shown repeated times, you're completely wrong on this. Your profiecincies as a Bestiary monster are dependent on your HD type.Er...It's been a long time since I've believed that, Lazar, and I never once pressed the matter once the developers made it clear that they were CHANGING the rules from the way v3.5 did it.
I'm simply asking for clarification on where one should draw the line.
It would seem the line is drawn where a creature actually has some sort of creature type hit dice from the comment. IIRC the rules about creatures gaining class levels dictate that if the creature had 1 HD that gets 'replaced' by the class HD. With that in mind, creatures that have 2 racial HD would retain the proficiencies. Any creature with a single HD would not have racial HD after gaining a class level and so wouldn't retain the proficiencies (barring something stating they do).
But what about other creature type traits such as darkvision, the need to eat, sleep, or breath, and all the rest?
On any given non-humanoid 0 HD race, how do you determine what you get from your type and what you don't get because your 0 HD?
Is there one in particular that is not detailed in the advanced race guide that you had a question about? If no, then use the specs in the ARG to determine what you need to know. If yes, which one?
But what about other creature type traits such as darkvision, the need to eat, sleep, or breath, and all the rest?
On any given non-humanoid 0 HD race, how do you determine what you get from your type and what you don't get because your 0 HD?
It would seem weapon proficiencies are the only 'sticking' point. Being 'native' outsiders means the creature needs to eat/sleep/etc. So that is a non issue. The race write up would cover the rest.
Take the Suli, they are native outsiders as well, HD by class. Their write up states low light vision. So this is a case of specific over general. Normally outsiders have darkvision but the race write up doesn't include it so it doesn't come into play.
'The rest' depends on the race write up. The only exception would be weapon proficiencies apparently.
But what about other creature type traits such as darkvision, the need to eat, sleep, or breath, and all the rest?
On any given non-humanoid 0 HD race, how do you determine what you get from your type and what you don't get because your 0 HD?
"Anything you would normally get from a class" seems to be the obvious (and case-closing) answer.
A lot of good that's going to do for other creatures that are released in the future. Also, how are you so sure that Suli DON'T get darkvision too?
A lot of good that's going to do for other creatures that are released in the future. Also, how are you so sure that Suli DON'T get darkvision too?
Because they don't:
Suli Characters
Sulis are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Sulis have the following racial traits.+2 Strength, +2 Charisma, –2 Intelligence: Sulis tend to be strong and charming, but slow-witted.
Low-Light Vision: Sulis can see twice as far as humans in dim light.
Negotiator: Sulis are keen negotiators, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Elemental Assault: See above.
Elemental Resistance: Sulis have resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Languages: Sulis begin play speaking Common and any one elemental language of their choice (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran). Sulis with high Intelligence scores can choose from among the following bonus languages: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Ignan, and Terran.
Nothing in that racial write up says they don't get darkvision as well.
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Nothing in the racial write up says they don't get a megaton hammer that destroys all reality....but I'm pretty sure they don't get that either.
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Yar!
Nothing in that racial write up says they don't get darkvision as well.
This is a poor argument for any rules issue. This game is based on what one can do according to what the text says you can do. It is not based on what you cannot do according to what the text says you cannot do*.
Note that the Suli has a actual entry in the ARG character section, which states what it can do/what you gain for being a Suli. They have Low Light Vision. Darkvision is not mentioned at all, therefor (just like how humans and half-elves and halflings do not mention Darkvision) they do not have Darkvision.
The bestiary entry for Suli does not list darkvision either. Only Low Light Vision.
Now, the example races for the race building section does include the Suli, and it does mention darkvision there. I posit to you that this single instance is a typo, as the Suli appears in multiple other locations, locations which are significantly more prominent than an example of an optional rules section, and none of these other places mentions Darkvision.
Ravingdork, I am all for your rules questions and the discussions they create, but this position of "it doesn't say they don't get it" (paraphrased) is something I cannot condone.
Everything falls apart once/if that mentality becomes acceptable.
EDIT: * I realize that this is not an absolute, as there are instances where a rule stats circumstances where you cannot do something (ie: limitations on Charge rules), however, these are always called out as such. For the most part, it is assumed one can do only what it (rules text) says you can do, nothing more. (ie: Spell descriptions. Feat descriptions. Racial abilities. etc)
~P
Nothing in that racial write up says they don't get darkvision as well.
And this just went from a serious conversation to a troll forum. Absolutely ridiculous statement.
Yar.
To further clarify, as there could be a legitimate misunderstanding here due to Suli appearing in both the ARG and the Bestiary 3, a person who does not have one or the other may be confused.
It is very possible for a person to see the Suli as a player race in the Bestiary 3 and not have the ARG and think, "oh wow, an outsider! The writeup for "as player characters" is rather lacking though, I should check out the Outsider creature type and see the complete picture of what they get... "
In this case, specific must override general. Suli specific traits gained overrides the general outsider traits gained.
Now, the question of "what specifics of the Outsider type to I keep and which ones get overridden by the Suli specifics" is a legitimate one.
Normally every player race was Humanoid, so we know from the Humanoid entry that it states many times "or by character class."
The Outsider entry does not say this. However, Outsiders (when the entry was first published for use with the Pathfinder rules) were not an option for playable races in the base Pathfinder rules (ignoring 3.5 compatibility), so it did not include such clauses. HOWEVER, the Outsider type entry does state this: "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." (bolding is mine) It then goes on to list Darkvision, their singular nature, proficiencies, and the need to breath but not to eat or sleep. These are traits all outsiders gain unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry.
So now we must go back to the Suli entry and see what it says, and if it differs from the basic Outsider traits listed, then we must use the Suli traits instead of the basic outsider traits.
What do we see? Suli do not have Darkvision listed, but they do have Low Light Vision. Ergo, they have Low Light Vision but they do not have Darkvision. They are also of the Native subtype, which further states that they have a dual nature and can be resurrected, and that they do need to eat and sleep. The Suli entry goes on to state "Sulis are defined by class levels - they do not possess racial Hit Dice". And as we know from JJ's post above, that means their proficiencies are also dictated by their class and not their type.
It takes a bit of research and going back and forth, but the answers can be found. Is it clear that this is what one has to do to get this answer? No, it isn't. Hence I do not bemoan RD from asking this question. However, it is there, it just takes effort to find.
~P
Nothing in that racial write up says they don't get darkvision as well.
As others have already pointed out - your argument is a colander... it holds no water.
the outsider proficiencies do not list the "or by character class clause"
which means that every outsider gets them, including 0HD ones
Features [b]
An outsider has the following features.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
[b] Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
note the lack of an "or by character class" clause
and in the case of the Suli, it does not note otherwise, meaning the Suli gets darkvision
and all published planetouched do not note otherwise in their racial traits for these proficiencies
Features
A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
d8 Hit Die, or by character class.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
One good save, usually Reflex.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die or by character class. The following are class skills for humanoids without a character class: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival. Humanoids with a character class use their class's skill list instead.
Traits
A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.
the outsider proficiencies do not list the "or by character class clause"
which means that every outsider gets them, including 0HD ones
** spoiler omitted **
note the lack of an "or by character class" clause
and in the case of the Suli, it does not note otherwise, meaning the Suli gets darkvision
and all published planetouched do not note otherwise in their[/b][/b]...
Incorrect for a crap ton of reasons already covered...
Which were? All I've seen is a game developer's unofficial remarks.
I can offer (what I think is) a decent argument:
The Advanced Race Guide breaks down the Aasimar as an example of the race creation point system. It has a 15 point 'buy' for the race. Guess what's not listed? Weapon proficiencies (among other things that Outsiders 'get' but Aasimar outsiders do not).
TYPE
Outsider (native)3 rp
SIZE
Medium0 rp
BASE SPEED
Normal0 rp
ABILITY SCORE MODIFIERS
Flexible (+2 Wis, +2 Cha)2 rp
LANGUAGES
Standard 0 rp
RACIAL TRAITS
Defense Racial Traits
Celestial resistance 3 rp
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Skill bonus (Diplomacy)2 rp
Skill bonus (Perception)2 rp
Magical Racial Traits
Spell-like ability, greater3 rp
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision 60 ft.— rp
Total 15 rp
If what you're claiming were true, and those were intended to be included, they would have been included in the example build of the race (resulting in an even more expensive race build); they weren't included, thus they weren't intended to be included.
It is very possible for a person to see the Suli as a player race in the Bestiary 3 and not have the ARG... However, Outsiders (when the entry was first published for use with the Pathfinder rules) were not an option for playable races in the base Pathfinder rules (ignoring 3.5 compatibility), so it did not include such clauses. [
Simply not true. Aasimar and Tiefling had stats for use as PCs in the Bestiary 1, which was published simultaneous with the Pathfinder Core Rule Book. You may have been confused since PRPG had an extensive playtest lasting over a year (which ruleset required using 3.5 for many portions not yet reproduced), but they were both published at the same time (EDIT: as I find it, the Bestiary is released 1 month later, simultaneous for all intensive purposes). As a matter of fact, Suli were first published in the Qadira Companion, which was the very first product published for the PRPG ruleset.
HOWEVER, the Outsider type entry does state this: "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." (bolding is mine) ...So now we must go back to the Suli entry and see what it says, and if it differs from the basic Outsider traits listed, then we must use the Suli traits instead of the basic outsider traits.
An absence of commentary is not the same thing as being 'noted in a creature's entry'.
Humanoids Traits (which apply 'unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry') include: "Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep."I don't seem to see that in any PC race description. Does that mean they don't breathe, eat, or sleep?
No, of course it doesn't. They inherit those traits from the Humanoid type UNLESS noted in their race description.
Not being mentioned does not qualify as being 'noted', if it did, the Core Races wouldn't breathe, eat, or sleep since they don't mention that.
Does that mean that Darkvision and Weapon Proficiency is the INTENTION for Planetouched races? No.
But it doesn't mean that them having those traits is not fully justifiable by the RAW,
i.e. meaning there is a need for Errata for that to comply with that supposed intention.
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@Quandary
Bestiary 1 Aasimar entry say:
1. Medium outsider (native)
1.1 outsider say:
Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
1.2 (native) say:
Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
2.
Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.
So what we get?
first we should determine what is the effect of : "Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice."
To me it appear clear that it will replace this part of the outsider description:
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
as it is the part that define the race HD effect.
Then we have:
"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
And what say the Aasimar character entry?
Aasimars have the following racial traits.
+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.
So apparently the whole set of racial trait that the Aasimar get for being a Outsider is what is listed above. that replace all the Outsider racial traits.
Let's do the same to the Suli entry in the Bestiary 3:
Medium outsider (native)
Same as 1.1 and 1.2 above.
2. Suli Characters
Sulis are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Sulis have the following racial traits.
+2 Strength, +2 Charisma, –2 Intelligence: Sulis tend to be strong and charming, but slow-witted.
Low-Light Vision: Sulis can see twice as far as humans in dim light.
Negotiator: Sulis are keen negotiators, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Elemental Assault: See above.
Elemental Resistance: Sulis have resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Languages: Sulis begin play speaking Common and any one elemental language of their choice (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran). Sulis with high Intelligence scores can choose from among the following bonus languages: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Ignan, and Terran.
Sulis are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice.
Same as the Aasimar.
Traits. As for the Aasimar the outsider traits are replaced by the specific traits of the Suli:
Sulis have the following racial traits.
+2 Strength, +2 Charisma, –2 Intelligence: Sulis tend to be strong and charming, but slow-witted.
Low-Light Vision: Sulis can see twice as far as humans in dim light.
Negotiator: Sulis are keen negotiators, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Elemental Assault: See above.
Elemental Resistance: Sulis have resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Languages: Sulis begin play speaking Common and any one elemental language of their choice (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran). Sulis with high Intelligence scores can choose from among the following bonus languages: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Ignan, and Terran.
As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.
But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".
The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.
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As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.
But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.
No, Quandary, the Outsider type say:
"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." and as the traits in the Aasimar entry note otherwise, listing what traits he has. You can argue that those are added trait but it is really a stretch.The native subtype don't say anything like that, so it is not substituted by what is in the Aasimar character entry. A Native outsider has the Native outsider subtype traits as there is nothing in the subtype traits that say that they can substituted.
As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.
But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.
and those traits, include Darkvision and Simple/Martial Weapon Proficiency
If native outsiders were supposed to have dark vision and martial weapon proficiency....don't you think it'd I don't know be in their racial write up?
I know crazy idea, but I mean it kinda makes sense, no?
As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.
But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.
No, Quandary, the Outsider type say:
"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." and as the traits in the Aasimar entry note otherwise, listing what traits he has. You can argue that those are added trait but it is really a stretch.The native subtype don't say anything like that, so it is not substituted by what is in the Aasimar character entry. A Native outsider has the Native outsider subtype traits as there is nothing in the subtype traits that say that they can substituted.
for it to count as noting otherwise, the bestiary entry (not a dev ruling) would have to explicitly state something like
"An Aasimaar Character's weapon proficiencies go by her class rather than her creature type."
but there is no such entry in the Aasimaar
meaning their type based proficiencies, are those of the outsider, which doesn't include the "or by character class" clause either.
If native outsiders were supposed to have dark vision and martial weapon proficiency....don't you think it'd I don't know be in their racial write up?
I know crazy idea, but I mean it kinda makes sense, no?
they had to save letter count
so they make you have to search the bestiaries for the list of weapon proficiencies
the Rhakshasa, Couatl, and Janni are also native outsiders, as is the Oni.
so it is clearly not the fact they possess the native subtype
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As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.
But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.
No, Quandary, the Outsider type say:
"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." and as the traits in the Aasimar entry note otherwise, listing what traits he has. You can argue that those are added trait but it is really a stretch.The native subtype don't say anything like that, so it is not substituted by what is in the Aasimar character entry. A Native outsider has the Native outsider subtype traits as there is nothing in the subtype traits that say that they can substituted.
for it to count as noting otherwise, the bestiary entry (not a dev ruling) would have to explicitly state something like
"An Aasimaar Character's weapon proficiencies go by her class rather than her creature type."
but there is no such entry in the Aasimaar
meaning their type based proficiencies, are those of the outsider, which doesn't include the "or by character class" clause either.
You are making it inclusive, one set of traits is added to the other, I say that one set of traits replace the other, completely.
Look the Suli entry in the bestiary, with its example Suli ranger, and what you see?
That he hasn't the darkvision ability, but he has low light vision.
The Aasimar cleric has only simple weapons in his equipment.
Just found:
Type QualityThis is the race's creature type. A race's creature type is similar to the corresponding creature type, with a few important differences. The first difference is that each race type assumes members of the race are roughly humanoid in shape and have two arms, two legs, a torso, and a head. This is important so that a race can take advantage of all the various magic item slots available to characters and can utilize the standard weapon and armor options. The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes.
Problem solved.
If native outsiders were supposed to have dark vision and martial weapon proficiency....don't you think it'd I don't know be in their racial write up?
I know crazy idea, but I mean it kinda makes sense, no?
they had to save letter count
so they make you have to search the bestiaries for the list of weapon proficiencies
the Rhakshasa, Couatl, and Janni are also native outsiders, as is the Oni.
so it is clearly not the fact they possess the native subtype
No, it's the fact that the (native) outsiders who do not have racial HD *are* defined in majority by character class and lose certain traits by design, unlike all the races you just mentioned who do have racial HD as well as possible character class HD.
By designating that there is a difference between outsiders with racial HD and those who have HD due to class levels, they have saved word count. They can then publish each individual outsider who doesn't have racial HD with only the abilities needed (saving more word count by not having to say this outsider doesn't have racial HD or these 'normal outsider' abilities every time) by virtue of a specific write up that takes precedence over the 'normal' outsider abilities.
'0 level' outsiders are special little snowflakes who don't follow the exact rules for outsiders because of the clause about being defined by class levels and their specific write ups. Apparently I'm a rocket scientist because it doesn't seem particularly confusing to me...