Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Ninjaiguana |
All of my PFS characters pick up a wayfinder as soon as they have a spare 250 gp floating around. For most, that's probably right after a masterwork weapon. For the full plate-ers, it's after the masterwork armour and the masterwork weapon. For most of my character's it my first 'magic item' purchase, excluding the wand I buy with PA. Not all my characters really need the abilities of a wayfinder, but it's the badge of office of the society! I just can't be without that!
Just a quick glance through my characters reveals that my 4 characters above level 1 (levels 3,5,9 and 10) all have a wayfinder. My other 3 characters have either 1 or 0 chronicle sheets to their name, and have no wayfinder yet.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Dennis Baker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Whaaaaat? How can you not be a fan of a glowing rock circling your head?!?!? ;)
Have you ever tried it? You get dizzy and the light pulsates in weird ways that make it very difficult to tell when things are moving. Plus you have to close your eyes every 5 seconds when it crosses in front of your face, the glare is terrible.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I dunno, it just has a taste of cheese to me. I don't object to it or players using it, I just don't like it. YMMV.
Really? What is it about the Ioun Torch that "tastes cheesy" to you? Just curious, as I usually interpret cheese to mean a complex interaction of effects of dubious legality that a player assembles. So calling a single item cheesy makes me think that must not be the same definition you use.
(Sorry for the de-rail.)
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Have you ever tried it? You get dizzy and the light pulsates in weird ways that make it very difficult to tell when things are moving. Plus you have to close your eyes every 5 seconds when it crosses in front of your face, the glare is terrible.
To be honest, I've been bracing myself for the day a GM decides they don't like the Ioun Torch and forces me to make saves (as against flare) every round that I'm using it.
TwilightKnight |
What is it about the Ioun Torch that "tastes cheesy" to you?
Honestly, I cannot really define it and it may very well be an irrational reaction. For whatever reason, I just don't like the feel of it. I know that is not the answer you were hoping for, but it's all I got. :-)
And just to clarify, I do not have a problem with the idea of the Ioun Torch, or it's availability to other players. I just don't like them, so I don't use them. I have not, nor will I single out that item for special "attention."
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Zero out of my four characters have one. All four of my characters are spellcasters and have Light and/or Dancing Lights.
(Dancing Lights is my favourite, aside from the short duration.)
Heh dancing lights is my second favourite cantrip. Rey doesn't have it because he and Talyn share acid splash and prestidigitation and I try to include some variety.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Doug Miles |
Ok, I'll bite. What's a wayfinder?
Wayfinders are small magical devices patterned after ancient relics of the Azlanti. In addition to any magical powers, all wayfinders act as magnetic compasses, granting a +2 competence bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. Each wayfinder includes a small indentation in the center of its face—this indentation is designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants the normal benefits it would grant if it were orbiting your head. Many ioun stones interact with wayfinders to create additional magical effects—see Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets for further details on how ioun stones interact with wayfinders. The standard wayfinder owned by most Pathfinders is a relatively simple device that allows the use of a light spell—this wayfinder is detailed on page 299 of The Inner Sea World Guide.
Fromper |
It's basically a compass that can cast light on itself at will. It's also sort of an unofficial "badge" of Pathfinders.
Ahh... I don't know if anyone in my local PFS group has ever heard of it. Is that in the Core Rulebook? One of these days, I'll actually finish reading that beast cover to cover.
Edit: Ninja'd by Doug Miles.
Re-edit: Ninja'd by Bob Jonquet while editing about being ninja'd by Doug Miles. Help! I'm being attacked by tag team ninjas!!!
TwilightKnight |
Well, I would be, but the ioun torch, like any other casting of continual light ends at the end of every scenario, and NPCs refuse to cast it.
um, What?!?
You are not paying for someone to cast Continual Flame, you are buying a magic item that sheds like as a Continual Flame. It does not end, unless there is some special rule I am unaware of, at the end of the scenario.If your contention was true, then nearly all magic items would cease to function at the end of the scenario as they are based on spells cast by NPC casters.
TwilightKnight |
Is that in the Core Rulebook?
No. It is primarily in Seeker of Secrets and the more recent Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
Thamius Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco |
For quite a while I didn't see many characters with Wayfinders, and usually just for the flavor and the Light spell. However, once someone looked closely at the Resonant Powers (method 1) in Seeker of Secrets and saw the awesomeness that you get when you put a clear spindle ioun stone in a Wayfinder, they became invaluable from the middle levels on up.
Fromper |
No. It is primarily in Seeker of Secrets and the more recent Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
Hmm... I don't know if anyone in my local group owns either of those. From the name of the Field Guide, I thought it might be a free download like the Guide to Organized Play. But for $14, I'll probably pass, at least for now.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
um, What?!?
You are not paying for someone to cast Continual Flame, you are buying a magic item that sheds like as a Continual Flame. It does not end, unless there is some special rule I am unaware of, at the end of the scenario. If your contention was true, then nearly all magic items would cease to function at the end of the scenario as they are based on spells cast by NPC casters.
.
.The ioun torch is a special case. The item description reads: "This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it." There's no item creation feats or crafting hoo-ha going on. Get yourself a burnt-out stone, cast a spell, voila you've got yourself an ioun torch.
.
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And the spell ends at the end of the scenario.
TwilightKnight |
the ioun torch is a special case
I understand your view, but I disagree with your interpretation. However, I am unaware of any FAQ or forum clarification on this so we will have to leave it up to the table GM to adjudicate until such time as there is an official ruling.
Hrmmm, investigation is in order...
nosig |
.
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The ioun torch is a special case. The item description reads: "This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it." There's no item creation feats or crafting hoo-ha going on. Get yourself a burnt-out stone, cast a spell, voila you've got yourself an ioun torch.
.
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And the spell ends at the end of the scenario.
The Everburning Torch is much the same:
"This otherwise normal torch has a continual flame spell cast on it. This causes it to shed light like an ordinary torch, but it does not emit heat or deal fire damage if used as a weapon."so you are saying it also goes out at the end of the adventure in which you buy it?
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
nosig,
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.
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The work-around some players proposed was to pay NPCs to cast those spells, and the campaign staff (at that point, the VCs were doing most of the heavy lifting, because Mike hadn't moved into his office yet) quashed that by declaring that NPC spellcaster would refuse to cast spells with instantaenous or permanent duration..
There is a Gentleman's Agreement in place that does not apply this rule to spells that heal hit point damage or remove conditions.
Fromper |
As an FYI, the Field Guide is part of the Core Assumption in the GtPSOP, so we assume that all players have a copy. That being said, since everyone, including the GM, is required to have one, you can likely assume that someone at your event has one if you want to take a cursory look.
Seriously? As far as I know, only two of us in my local group even own the Core Rulebook, let alone anything else. I know our 3 GMs (4 once I start GMing) pay for modules, but our group seems to mostly use the PRD online for most things.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
.
The work-around some players proposed was to pay NPCs to cast those spells, and the campaign staff (at that point, the VCs were doing most of the heavy lifting, because Mike hadn't moved into his office yet) quashed that by declaring that NPC spellcaster would refuse to cast spells with instantaenous or permanent duration.
.
There is a Gentleman's Agreement in place that does not apply this rule to spells that heal hit point damage or remove conditions.
But I don't think that applies to magic items bought straight out of a book; an Ioun Torch shouldn't wink out any more than my +1 full plate should revert back to masterwork full plate.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Jiggy, your +1 full plate requires Craft Magic Arms & Armor. There's a whole process the crafter goes through to make it. That's the case for almost every single magic item in the book.
An everburning torch is a stick serving as the focus for a spell with a permanent duration. The same is true of an ioun torch. They represent a special case. At least, they do at my table.
A wayfinder, on the other hand, is a regular magic item.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Jiggy, your +1 full plate requires Craft Magic Arms & Armor. There's a whole process the crafter goes through to make it. That's the case for almost every single magic item in the book.
An everburning torch is a stick serving as the focus for a spell with a permanent duration. The same is true of an ioun torch. They represent a special case. At least, they do at my table.
A wayfinder, on the other hand, is a regular magic item.
I guess I can see where you're coming from, but...
That means that if I use an Ioun Torch at your table, the scenario ends and you have to tell me "Sorry, but that magic item that you bought straight out of the book and didn't cast any spells on and didn't involve any NPCs with now suddenly ceases to function."
I can't imagine that's how it's supposed to work, and therefore I think you must be misinterpreting the "no permanent spells" rule.
Note that with an Ioun Torch, I don't buy a Dull Gray Ioun Stone and then hire an NPC to cast continual flame on it. It's a wondrous item with its own stat block.
Similarly, note that the rule/clarification you cited talked about hiring NPCs to cast spells. To say that buying an item whose unmodified stat block includes a reference to a spell having been cast on it constitutes hiring an NPC spellcaster is a bit of a stretch.
nosig |
Jiggy, your +1 full plate requires Craft Magic Arms & Armor. There's a whole process the crafter goes through to make it. That's the case for almost every single magic item in the book.
An everburning torch is a stick serving as the focus for a spell with a permanent duration. The same is true of an ioun torch. They represent a special case. At least, they do at my table.
A wayfinder, on the other hand, is a regular magic item.
are you saying that if I am sitting at your table in a PFSOP game and my PC pulls out an Everburning Torch that he bought 3 adventures back that it will be, ah... a stick? No spell?
Thamius Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco |
As long as you understand the limitations of this combo, it's fine. It is not quite as cool as it once was, but still a good idea at higher levels.
??? In what way did the benefits of the Wayfinder/clear spindle ioun stone combo change? You don't get the full effects of the Protection from Evil spell, you never did. Perhaps some people thought it did, that's just a mis-interpretation, not a change. What you do get:
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.... (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects).
Dominate? I don't think so. Hold Person? Yawn. Add to the list Suggestion, Command, Charm Person/Monster, Hypnotism, half of the Symbols, Hypnotism, Sleep/Deep Slumber, Hideous Laughter, Daze/Daze Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Geas, Feeblemind, Mind Fog, Insanity, all the Power Words, Irresistible Dance, and many more. You also get immunity to some class abilities, like many of the bard's mental "attacks" associated with his bardic performance, a few clerical domain powers, a wizard's Dazing Touch, some witch's hexes, etc.
Damn, I forgot this would have protected my druid against that gibbering mouther's Gibbering ability.
Mok |
I wish there was a reason to buy a wayfinder, however I can't recall a time when I've seen it being useful, beyond a slash of light. The new options in the Field Guide however do make it a more interesting purchase.
In terms of light I've been using the Ioun Torch, and this is the fist I've ever heard that it's only good for a single session. It would be worthless if that were the case.
DarthGoob |
All of my characters that are not casters get them pretty early just for the light source.
I'd say its a definite purchase for any character by 3rd or 4th level for the convenience and for the "Pathfinder Badge" effect.
Also, too many modules and scenarios have something in them like "if the PCs identify themselves as Pathfinders" then something happens.... I would think that identifying themselves would be openly displaying, wearing, or using a wayfinder at that time.
Dennis Baker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
TwilightKnight |
Stuff
I will have to do some searching but there was some clarifications regarding this combo not too long ago. Not so much a rules change, but a clarification on what constitutes the specifics of the spell. Prot Evil effect only blocks ongoing and direct control effects. So Dominate is blocked. However, Hold Person, Sleep, most compulsions, etc function normally. There is a difference between "control" and "influence."
Edited--thanks Dennis
Dennis Baker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Dominate? I don't think so. Hold Person? Yawn. Add to the list Suggestion, Command, Charm Person/Monster, Hypnotism, half of the Symbols, Hypnotism, Sleep/Deep Slumber, Hideous Laughter, Daze/Daze Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Geas, Feeblemind, Mind Fog, Insanity, all the Power Words, Irresistible Dance, and many more. You also get immunity to some class abilities, like many of the bard's mental "attacks" associated with his bardic performance, a few clerical domain powers, a wizard's Dazing Touch, some witch's hexes, etc.
Damn, I forgot this would have protected my druid against that gibbering mouther's Gibbering ability.
Dan Luckett |
I wish there was a reason to buy a wayfinder, however I can't recall a time when I've seen it being useful, beyond a slash of light. The new options in the Field Guide however do make it a more interesting purchase.
In terms of light I've been using the Ioun Torch, and this is the fist I've ever heard that it's only good for a single session. It would be worthless if that were the case.
Yea, I'm going to have to say, that the interpretation that it ends at the end of a scenario is wrong. No spell was cast during the session, so it does not effect the permanency rule. It was bought from the shopkeep of "Ye olde Supplies".
This kind of odd interpretation of continuous spells and the "real" reason there was a continuous spell rule in the first place is a good example why it should be revisited by PFS campaign staff, but is not the place for this thread.
On Topic: All of my characters eventually pick up a wayfinder, usually lvl 2-3. They also all have Ioun Torches, which I'm perfectly ok with.
Thamius Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco |
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Are you saying that if I am sitting at your table in a PFSOP game and my PC pulls out an Everburning Torch that he bought 3 adventures back that it will be, ah... a stick? No spell?
To answer your question, nosig, let's put two Pathfinders on the streets of Absalom. Both are humans (how sad) and need to see in the dark.
Pathfinder A goes to Ezren, a wizard, and asks him to cast continual flame on the end of a torch. For argument's sake, Ezren agrees.
Pathfinder B goes to a merchant and buys an Everburning Torch, which is, by definition, an otherwise normal torch with continual flame cast on it. It's not a magic item, but rather a "goods and services" item.
If you can tell me that Pathfinder B now owns something other than "an otherwise normal torch with continual flame cast on it," I'd be happy to hear your explanation.
And in PFS, that spell ended as soon as you received your Chronicle sheet. Unless there's something special on that Chronicle giving us an exception to that rule.
At my table, if you pull out an undead skeletal bird to which you want to give a command, which you purcased 3 sessions previous, it needs to be created with Craft Wondrous Item and the item creation rules, or else it's just animate dead on a bird, and that spell fizzles at the end of a session.
I don't write the rules, nosig. I just follow 'em.
TwilightKnight |
Perhaps by RAW, Chris, you may be correct, but we are dealing with a very unique case due to the special rules for PFS that limit spell-casting durations. Under Core, we wouldn't even be having this debate since those items are permanent. But because of an artificial rule that exists only in PFS, we have created a "side" case where one does not normally exist.
At the risk of speaking for Mike, I believe that the intent (read: RAI) is that Everburing Torches and Ioun Stones do not fizzle out at the end of the scenario. But, I will respect your interpretation in lieu of an official ruling and I know when I play at your table, any existing torches/stones will no longer work.
nosig |
To answer your question, nosig, let's put two Pathfinders on the streets of Absalom. Both are humans (how sad) and need to see in the dark.
Pathfinder A goes to Ezren, a wizard, and asks him to cast continual flame on the end of a torch. For argument's sake, Ezren agrees.
Pathfinder B goes to a merchant and buys an Everburning Torch, which is, by definition, an otherwise normal torch with continual flame cast on it. It's not a magic item, but rather a "goods and services" item.
If you can tell me that Pathfinder B now owns something other than "an otherwise normal torch with continual flame cast on it," I'd be happy to hear your explanation.
And in PFS, that spell ended as soon as you received your Chronicle sheet. Unless there's something special on that Chronicle giving us an exception to that rule.
At my table, if you pull out an undead skeletal bird to which you want to give a command, which you purcased 3 sessions previous, it needs to be created with Craft Wondrous Item and the item creation rules, or else it's just animate dead on a bird, and that spell fizzles at the end of a session.
I don't write the rules, nosig. I just follow 'em.
{shrugs} ok. this is just another case of YMMV.
Chris - you do realize that you are the only judge I know that rules this way? (not that I see it much, as my characters use other means for light than Ioun Torchs or Everburning Torchs). Not that that matters if I am at your table.edit: ninja'd by Bob!
Dragnmoon |
Since I only use Wayfinders as Ioun Stone containers and only one of my PCs has an Ioun Stone, only one PC out of six (Soon to be Seven) has a Wayfinder.