Cool build, I'm working on something similar - but with a medium sized rider. I do have one question, though. Can't you not stack the Beast Rider and Emissary archetypes? Since they both replace Armor Proficiency?
Depends on your GM. There's nothing in the rules that talk about proficiencies, they don't say 'replaces' or 'must have core' it just says what they have.
The two classes are compatible, in that Emisarry says 'don't get heavy' while beast rider states 'has light and medium and shields' which is the same.
Every GM (Myself included) that I've talked to looked at proficiencies and basically ruled you take the most restrictive set, if present. The only exception I've seen is one situation where an archetype just added weapon proficiencies, and didn't remove anything.
The rules on archetype stacking only talk about class abilities that replace others, not on proficiencies.
But what about for PFS? Where my theorized cavalier resides? Could you post up a link to the stacking rules? I can't seem to find them myself... :(
For PFS, you'll need to check the PFS guide, and ask over on the PFS forums for a ruling from Frost & Co. Sorry.
The stacking rules are in the APG where archetypes are introduced.
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Been a while since you checked it out, huh? (which isn't necessarily a bad thing sometimes :P) Frost hasn't been a fixture there for a while. Brock is the new "word of God" name. I did find the relevant passage though, thanks!
I'll work on my build some and post it up here for you guys to help out. Cavaliers seem really cool, I'm pretty excited!
I plan on multiclassing into the Battle Herald prestige class and taking the leadership feat. (6 levels of cavalier, 1 of BH, 2 of cav, then 4 of BH until 13).
I think you need to take a level of bard in there as Battle Herald has a prereq of Inspire Courage Class feature.
Also, just to confirm my brief research, cavaliers don't get Mounted Combat as a bonus feat anywhere do they? With the exception of being able to take it as one of their bonus combat feats, of course.Not unless an emissary.
This is the reason why I think that emissary or gendarme is almost required archetypes if one starts a non-human (read: small) first level character. If not it will only be at level six that one will have spirited charge + power attack.
For those first few levels you don't really need both. One or the other will function just fine. And you'll have all those feats by 6th.
That depends on your definition of ”need” I guess. But if one does not have them one is missing out on an awful lot of potential damage for a lager chunk of the time one is playing the character. With SC even a small character is likely to one-shot most enemies at level 3, which is useful to say the least. Without any bonus feats it just take so long to get the full panoply.For those first few levels you don't really need both. One or the other will function just fine. And you'll have all those feats by 6th.
Here's how I see it:
Levels 1-2: Most everything is going to die to a single mounted charge so now worries here.
Levels 3-4: Just go ahead and get power attack if damage is a concern. By now you'll have mighty charge and your challenge will start looking a lot better in terms of bonuses.
5-6: This is the sweet spot for cavaliers before 8th-9th: You'll get your banner, the rest of your feats plus more stuff besides.
Really I feel that giving up tactician is a huge loss for you in the long run.
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I couldn't find a clear answer on this -- if I have Escape Route and I give it to my allies, we can all move around (provided we are within 5 feet of each other) without provoking. Also, if I'm riding my mount and give it to him with tactician, are we basically immune to AOOs for as long as it lasts?
I hope this is acceptable, but could I direct TarkXT's gaze to my Cavalier thread?
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5hbj?Build-Advice-for-a-Cavalier-Knight-Errant# 6
I couldn't find a clear answer on this -- if I have Escape Route and I give it to my allies, we can all move around (provided we are within 5 feet of each other) without provoking. Also, if I'm riding my mount and give it to him with tactician, are we basically immune to AOOs for as long as it lasts?
The RAW is dodgy on this but as a GM or a rules lawyer I'd likely say nay. Since neither horse nor cavalier are moving through or even within one another's squares so much as picking them up and taking them along if that makes sense.
It's still not a bad feat but there really isn't many uses for it.
Really I feel that giving up tactician is a huge loss for you in the long run.
It's not really a loss if you don't think you can really use it.
Personally, with so little party synergy at my table, handing out teamwork feats would be pointless because we'd be unable to take advantage of them.
Tactician is nice but damn, there's alot of Space between the Free feats.
The Best 3 are Precise Strike at 1. (Really the best feat you canget at this level)
Outflank (You meet the Preq for your 5th level feat, but don't get gtr tactician till much later)
Coordinated Charge- Super feat but despite being able to take it by 11 your next tactician feat doesn't come till most aps are over...
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Tactician is nice but damn, there's alot of Space between the Free feats.
The Best 3 are Precise Strike at 1. (Really the best feat you canget at this level)
Outflank (You meet the Preq for your 5th level feat, but don't get gtr tactician till much later)
Coordinated Charge- Super feat but despite being able to take it by 11 your next tactician feat doesn't come till most aps are over...
You can cheat a bit and take one or three levels of something at appropriate times to ensure tactician will land at the right level for the appropriate feat.
Though honestly I think 9th level is pretty damn good timing for outflank. By then most people will have keen enchantments, by then multiple attacks will be around and people will start looking at things like critical focus or taking advantage of butterfly's sting more.
Honestly I love paired opportunist at level 1 for the long game particularly when you're talking about alternate means of generating AoO's. I'm looking at trip monkey's, steal glory, retribution, etc. etc. Basically anytime someone has a means of generating an AoO you can share that with your buddy. Outflank simply serves as a quick and easy AoO generator.
If you really want a swift action coordinated charge at 9th just dip into another full bab class for a level (barbarian comes to mind) and now you have it.
Precise Strike is the safe option when no one in the group is particularly strategy minded.
Now ultimately. The reason I'm such a sucker for eye for talent is the idea of your mount taking advantage of the same teamwork feats as you are without ever using tactician.
Giving the mount feats is nice.
Paired Oppurtunist + Outflank really only works if you have 3 or more melee chars.
Cav+ 1 doesn't work cause Paired Oppurtunist requires you to be adjacent and Outflank needs you to be flanking.
3.5 had the Adaptable flanker feat. Is there a PF equivelent?
Tactician is a fairly situational ability. At low levels both its duration as well as the number of times it can be used is highly limited. It is also only effective if you have lots of people around you.
So for a mounted charger it is of very limited value as then one either wants to charge, or manoeuvre to set up a charge. Most of the time one will not be within 30 foot of allies unless they are mounted too, as footsloggers are too slow.
Sadly this is not reality.
Seven times out of ten you'll find yourself in close proximity to your group trying to maneuver about for a charge and finding out you were better off just taking that big sweaty animal of yours and wading into the fray rather than trying to get around the rocks, walls, trees, carpets of living flesh, and allies. Tactician functions in these cases as a means of having something significant to do either while trying to maneuver to said position or as a nice fat boost to the parties capabilities at an opportune time.
This being said there are teamwork feats that work just fine while mounted. Lookout for example is a huge boon to the party whether they are ambushing or being ambushed. Then there is coordinated charge which if you've done as I suggested and dipped elsewhere you'll be able to get at 10th.
If you want to get more mileage out of your teamwork feats than try to get them on your mount, your cohort, and perhaps one or two of your fellow party members.
Then I suspect there is a major tactical difference in how we play, as if one stay in close proximity to the group, one will be bunched up allot more. I think it is very rarely were it is better to go into melee rather then charge or skirmish.
Ask anyone who has ever played in PFS or a good number of AP's and ask them how often they found themselves rubbing shoulders and trying to get into combat let alone trying to get a good charge lane. Heck in just the recent homebrews I've been in I can count on one hand the situations where mounted combat would have been entirely feasible.
I think there's a disconnect here. By the way you're wording your ideas it seems your focused on order of the sword pure mounted cavaliers. Which, is only one very narrow flavor of cavalier.
Ultimately to me for an archetype to get rid of tactician or other support abilities it has to prove to be worth dropping the kinds of combos you can pull in the mid game. Gendarme does not do this. It trades late game power for early game convenience.
Emissary is slightly better off as it gives you the ability to run at full speed in medium armor at level 1.
In the end an effective cavalier has to prove that he can function both off and on his mount. If you focus entirely on mounted combat you'll find that while you excel at it beyond everyone else you'll also be over exposed to the weaknesses of the fighting style. And you know believe it or not you're in pretty good shape even if you spread out the three "must have" feats for mounted combat.
The tricky bit, and the one that people get hung up on, is when you have to dismount and fight with the rest of the foot sloggers. That's the point where a cavalier has to stop acting like a one dimensional combatant and start making use of his stuff to be a boon to the group and not just a self propelled rocket that splatters one enemy at a time.
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I was looking at the Order of the Cockatrice(also known as the only Order I know) and I noticed you missed out on the Icing on the cake. It says this
At 2nd level, the cavalier can spend a standard action to extol his own accomplishments and battle prowess. He receives Dazzling Display as a bonus feat. He does not need a weapon in hand to use this ability. The cavalier receives a +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls made against demoralized targets.
It says in there that he can use Dazzling Display as a standard action instead of a full-round action. He also doesn't need a weapon. While it is a situational at best, You'll be happy when you are disarmed and can still help the rest of the party.
Actually for Gms this will make order of the cocktrice as a group of them annoying to fight if one demoralizes all of them and then the rest get a huge bonus to fight. Three braggart cavalry men that get into a fight at level 2 with power attack to show their glory CR4 encounter but the party might just get hit with dazzling display and that +4 total after being shaken means those power attacks from the other two are likely to hit.
Edit also one other thing about using a lance or other reach weapon on a horse that is a side effect of mounted combat. You count as in your mounts square so you can actually be in the higher in three dimensional space and with a lance that reach is even higher so you just might be able to reach an archer on the roof of a one story building or maybe even charge him on top of the building from the ground.
And they're trying to say that a paladin is a knight. No. Just no. Holy warrior, yes. Knight? No.Paladins get a mount.
Paladins follow a code.
Paladins are skilled at arms and can wear heavy armor.
Paladins are originally based upon guys like Sir Lancelot.They're knights. That being said you don't have to make a knightly paladin.
Excellent quote.
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Giving the mount feats is nice.
Paired Oppurtunist + Outflank really only works if you have 3 or more melee chars.
Cav+ 1 doesn't work cause Paired Oppurtunist requires you to be adjacent and Outflank needs you to be flanking.3.5 had the Adaptable flanker feat. Is there a PF equivelent?
Never got an answer on this.
Is there a way to make it work with only Cav+1 ally?
If you really want a swift action coordinated charge at 9th just dip into another full bab class for a level (barbarian comes to mind) and now you have it.
You know I'm REALLY considering this for level 9, so I can take co-ordinated Charge at 10.
I'm wondering if you think Wild Rager is worth it.
I dumped Aden's CHA to 7 (see avatar) so he's need to save vs a Will DC of 9 to end confused state.
With his build his Will at level 2 is +2. If I take Barb at 9 his WILL will be +4 (add +1 for a Headband of Wis+2), for +5
Add the Morale bonus for Rage (+2) and that gives him a Will save of +7
That means a roll of 2 makes the DC9 save.
Only 5% chance to fail.
To Me at least this is a great dip.
Rage will last 6-8rds a day, but in fact lasts alot longer since I go confused rage as soon as I kill something. Basically I voluntarily let the condition persist (since I auto attack the last foe that hit me) until the confused state makes me do something dumb like attack a buddy. Then I just roll the save with 95% pass chance.
The best part is my Class abilities like Stem the tide should work just fine as long as I'm attacking my foe.
Someone tell me If this is as good as I think it is or am I missing something.
(As an extra, I can stack Drunken Brute to drink potions as a Move Action)
Giving the mount feats is nice.
Paired Oppurtunist + Outflank really only works if you have 3 or more melee chars.
Cav+ 1 doesn't work cause Paired Oppurtunist requires you to be adjacent and Outflank needs you to be flanking.3.5 had the Adaptable flanker feat. Is there a PF equivelent?
Never got an answer on this.
Is there a way to make it work with only Cav+1 ally?
Because there's no real need to. The cavalier provides two melee fighters as is. However if any of the three have gang-up while the other two are flanked that can work. Sadly you do need three allies to make it work completley. But again, the cavalier comes with two.
You know I'm REALLY considering this for level 9, so I can take co-ordinated Charge at 10.
I'm wondering if you think Wild Rager is worth it.
I dumped Aden's CHA to 7 (see avatar) so he's need to save vs a Will DC of 9 to end confused state.With his build his Will at level 2 is +2. If I take Barb at 9 his WILL will be +4 (add +1 for a Headband of Wis+2), for +5
Add the Morale bonus for Rage (+2) and that gives him a Will save of +7That means a roll of 2 makes the DC9 save.
Only 5% chance to fail.To Me at least this is a great dip.
Rage will last 6-8rds a day, but in fact lasts alot longer since I go confused rage as soon as I kill something. Basically I voluntarily let the condition persist (since I auto attack the last foe that hit me) until the confused state makes me do something dumb like attack a buddy. Then I just roll the save with 95% pass chance.The best part is my Class abilities like Stem the tide should work just fine as long as I'm attacking my foe.
Someone tell me If this is as good as I think it is or am I missing something.
(As an extra, I can stack Drunken Brute to drink potions as a Move Action)
That sounds exceedingly bad.
A build like yours would be better off in actual control without relying on a save. I say stick to vanilla barbarian perhaps take one more level after you get coordinated charge to get Ferocious mount and access to the Extra Rage Power feat. Congratulations now you have a mount that rages when you do. If you go mounted fury it moves fast too.
Really?
This is probably the first time I've completely disagreed with you (however I'm trying hard to see your side in case I'm just getting starry eyed by the free rage rounds.)
Admittedly I've never played a wild rager before but I figured having a 95% pass against a condition would be worth the risk. I KNOW I'm gonna fail the save eventually but figured it would be imfrequent enough to be manageable.
I had not considered a second barb level. Especially for ferocious mount (since the Bodyguard and Stratagist archetypes trade out most mount stuff) and He only gets 4+ Con rounds of rage a day.
Never forget that your mount is an ally and you can give teamwork feats to it. Or just have it take them.
Really?
This is probably the first time I've completely disagreed with you (however I'm trying hard to see your side in case I'm just getting starry eyed by the free rage rounds.)
Admittedly I've never played a wild rager before but I figured having a 95% pass against a condition would be worth the risk. I KNOW I'm gonna fail the save eventually but figured it would be imfrequent enough to be manageable.
It's the save you fail that ends up murdering your mount. Who is likely going to be the closest critter at hand.
I had not considered a second barb level. Especially for ferocious mount (since the Bodyguard and Stratagist archetypes trade out most mount stuff) and He only gets 4+ Con rounds of rage a day.
You mount is still an extra warm body that benefits from all of your abilities (banner, tactician, etc. etc.) It would be wise not to underestimate what you can do once you're in full support mode. Heck even agaisnt medium opponents it gives you a +1 bonus to attack rolls. And more than that it extends your area of influence (i.e. all the squares adjacent to the mount). Simply stripping out your mounted stuff doesn't make you a bad mounted character. And even without it you have a speedy mobile character you can use to flank with you.
Heck one of the better mounted builds I've been discovering is a Houndmaster.
Really?
This is probably the first time I've completely disagreed with you (however I'm trying hard to see your side in case I'm just getting starry eyed by the free rage rounds.)
Admittedly I've never played a wild rager before but I figured having a 95% pass against a condition would be worth the risk. I KNOW I'm gonna fail the save eventually but figured it would be imfrequent enough to be manageable.
It's the save you fail that ends up murdering your mount. Who is likely going to be the closest critter at hand.
Then I wonder If there is an Item that can grant me a will reroll x/day.
Improved Iron Will Isn't an option, no room feat wise.
At work so can't check right now.
The Samurai could fair a little better than the cavalier in all the time dpr since he can take Wpn Spl, Gtr wpn fcs etc.
The ability to take fighter feats can make a nice difference.
My Samurai Build goes:
Trait- Reactive.
1-Wpn Fcs: Katana, H- Skill Fcs: Intimidate
3- Power Attack
5- Dazzling Display
6- Shatter Defenses
7- Conrugan Smash
9- Gtr Wpn Fcs: Katana
11- Deadly StrokeFrom here when you beat an enemies initiative or Intimidate them either via Cornrugan Smash or Dazzling Display, you can Deadly Stroke.
This is awesome for all your standard action attacks. Doubling Everything, INCLUDING CHALLENGE Damage.As for the later levels I currently have:
12- Critical Focus
13- Staggering Critical
15- Penetrating Strike
17- Gtr Penetrating Strike
18- Wpn Spl
19- Stunning Critical
You could take Cockatrice Order for Samurai thus granting Dazzling Display at 2nd level.
True but then I'd miss out on the awesome order of the warrior abilities.
Added the Mount section. Will be looking to add Mount builds to it.
If you ride on a cave druid it can squeeze through any size although the unfortanate part is there wildshape is delayed by two levels. Too bad there is no raw way to use a slicer beetle as a mount.
Do you guys have any suggestions on feats for a Half-Orc Order of the Dragon Samurai equipped with a Naginata, Shortbow, Dire Flail, Bite (Toothy alternate racial trait), and a Horse mount? Going for a good mix of feats that benefit mounted and unmounted combat.
I have a rough plan typed up, but wanted to get suggestions before I finalize the plan.
@Tark.
Well done on the mount section. I find the charger is nice for the umounted cav and samurai.
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Well, well, were to start?
Some thoughts in no particular order:
Beastrider: It should be mentioned that mounts from that archetype do not start with armour proficiency (they get endurance instead). Also if you are medium it do not provide you with any additional options until level 7, and for a small cavalier most options are inferior to the boar unless you accept a large mount (and if you wanted a large mount, why are you not medium?).
However, for medium PC the t-rex can do an ungodly amount of damage, with improved natural attack and PA, one is looking a something like +15/10 and a damage of 3d6+26 at level 9.
Read it again. While you are correct about the change of feats on the mount (which will be mentioned in the archetpe write up) you are wrong about everything else (save the T-Rex).
Medium cavaliers get the following options at 4th; allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus. Granted I will say most of these options start at medium and don't get large until 7th which is what I think you mean.
At 7th level he gets practically nothing; Bear and Crocodile. But at this point you're riding around on an Ankylosaurus or T-Rex so it doesn't matter.
Plus Small cavaliers actually have a very good option in the Deinonoychus. And you know those mounts at 4th? They don't get large until 7th. At which point you can switch if desired. :)
Lack of permanently flying mounts is no big drawback, by the time that it matter having some scrolls of airwalking should be standard.
Except the point where you're using a consumable to make up for a weakness. Said consumable being easy to dispel, expensive, and impossible to use unless you invest heavily into UMD, are high level Order of The Tome, or have someone else cast it.
Also, it is rare for there to be any need to be able to fly other then for fairly specific occasions, so in practice the limited (but still long) duration of spells is not limitation. Several of you suggestions for flying mounts are also totally useless in any kind of non-open areas. So why the very strong focus on flying?
Can you be more specific? Keep in mind the mounts suggested are also gained through Leadership. You don't give up your old mount just for a new one. You simply spend a feat on the option of easy flight. Since none of your other options can fly this is the simplest way of getting it without burning consumables.
The emphasis on flight comes from a simple issue. No matter what you do a mount still gets screwed by terrain. Walls still need to be gotten over, cliffs crossed, enemies gotten over etc, etc. Even in an open area you won't be able to get the charge lanes you need. You can load down on mobility abilities and still find your self stifled by a knee high wall.
Now you mention being useless in non-open areas. I think that's a narrow way of thinking as even a land bound mount can be more useless in a cramped environment. Remember my emphasis the whole time is finding a balance between being mounted and unmounted. A flying mount might not be that great in the dungeon but the MArtial Artist pegasus is still a martial artist pegasus if he can't make use of his flight.
As for riding other players characters; I do not really see that as a good option, as that basically means they have no control over what their PC does (if they had control they would not be mounts).
That's merely an opinion. Some players are just fine with the idea of acting as mounts. It doesn't work for everyone as I already noted. But in terms of sheer optimization it works marvelously. And I've already noted the disadvantage of having a mount that wants to do its own thing.
On top of all that, some mounted abilities only work when riding you own mount, such as lack of armour check penalties or the order of the sword mount str on charges.
One advantage is incredibly minor, the other is order specific. Armor check penalties are easy to reduce to almost nothing pretty much nullifying that advantage. Lastly the advantages of the str damage are not specific to his class mount. At least not by my reading. I can see how you might read it otherwise so it is probably worth an FAQ.
In a way I feel that you are putting a very strong focus on what is good at vey high levels (15+) while not saying anything about how things work below level 10 (for example tactician, which is pretty useless for the first 5-10 levles).
I would not say pretty useless but I would say not good either. And in fact I did talk about that. Plus I have not talked about much that is level specific. If it feels like I'm talking about high levels a lot that's because the class doesn't really start until later levels. Most full Bab classes come into their own by 6th. Cavaliers feel like they don't hit the sweet spot until 8th.
I don't think cavaliers exactly suck at 1st level either from my expirence espicially the medium ones with high strength.
Also if you ride a druid the druid can cast air walk.
But as the beast rider in effect notes, unless they are large, they cannot be selected, so in effect, only at the 7th level can the medium cavalier take them as mounts (I think we all agree that the beast rider archetype need an errata).
Fair enough. That's worth noting.
While the small one can select from all those beast, due to them getting no stat increase at 4th they are in pretty much all ways inferior to the Boar that gets a 4th level boost.
This I think is misleading. It's suggesting that raw stats are all that make a suitable mount. It depends more on what you desire in a mount. Boars are great for the levels they are great but they don't have extra options beyond the raw numbers beyond some durability (scent being relatively common as it is). Wolves can trip, Ankylosaurus's have high AC (starting at 21 without armor, or stat boosts, easily hits 25 at level one). Some provide multiple attacks (elephants, glyptodons). Others have alternate movment modes (turtles can swim) Later on all of these options get better. That's something of the point I'm emphasizing. Raw numbers are great but no amount of numbers will make up for those extra things.
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Here's a question-- if the cavalier is a human with Eye for Talent, and the mount has an Int of 4 and thus qualifies for feats, could the player roleplay as the mount instead of the cavalier? Saying things like "okay, I'm going to double move while the guy on my back fires his longbow?" Writing the horse's stats on the character sheet and the cavalier's stats on a separate index card?
No reason you can't. My magus has a raven and I play it as it's own character
At 4th level, the Samurai gains the Mounted Archer extraordinary ability, which states:
At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Would this stack with the Mounted Archery feat to become -1 on a double move and -2 while running?
Mounted Archery (Combat)
You are skilled at making ranged attacks while mounted.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: The penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is halved: –2 instead of –4 if your mount is taking a double move, and –4 instead of –8 if your mount is running.
At 4th level, the Samurai gains the Mounted Archer extraordinary ability, which states:
At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Would this stack with the Mounted Archery feat to become -1 on a double move and -2 while running?
Mounted Archery (Combat)
You are skilled at making ranged attacks while mounted.Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: The penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is halved: –2 instead of –4 if your mount is taking a double move, and –4 instead of –8 if your mount is running.
Yup.
Looks like your guide was added to the Guide to the Guides.