Things I have learned about optimized PCs in Kingmaker


Kingmaker


So I ran my first session of Kingmaker and came up against some odd mechanical issues. One is apparently Alchemists are so front loaded its not funny. In short:

1) It is perfectly possible for a party of 5 first level characters to kill 2 trolls, so long as the overpowered alchemist rolls 2 crits in 3 rounds.

2) Random encounters are weird deals (1d4 trolls is a possible encounter at any level)

3) I am going to have to overbuild my encounters from now on.

4) People do not like fetch quests.


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Kingmaker tends to drag most GMs into simulationist territory. That's why your point 2 is a bit surprising to you.
On your 0th point, remember that a lot of the newer classes have a fairly small gap between the most common build and the most optimized build. Accordingly, your average summoner or alchemist will tend to be a lot more optimized than your average fighter or rogue. If your other PCs aren't very optimized, introducing the newer classes will frequently make them look overpowered. I suggest visiting the DPR olympics threads for more insight on that topic. I will register one disagreement with the developers though:

I believe that they overvalue consistent DPR relative to spike DPR or situational DPR when they make balancing decisions. This tends to put the onus on the GM to artificially create additional encounters in many instances purely for metagame reasons if they want to balance against this feature (some call it the 15 minute adventuring workday).


CaspianM wrote:


1) It is perfectly possible for a party of 5 first level characters to kill 2 trolls, so long as the overpowered alchemist rolls 2 crits in 3 rounds.

Say more, tell how. A troll should be able to rip a first level character apart in a single round.

A plain vanilla troll hits for bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5), plus Rend if it hits with both claws. A typical first level fighter will have an AC around 18-20, so the troll is likely to hit at least once and has a better than even chance of hitting on two out of three attacks. Putting the rend thing aside, if it hits with a claw and a bite that's an average of 17 points of damage, which will put any first level character out of the combat.

*Two* trolls? They should have torn your party into small pieces. My PCs met their first troll when they were 2nd level, and they were (quite correctly) terrified of it.

CaspianM wrote:

3) I am going to have to overbuild my encounters from now on.

I would hesitate to jump to that conclusion after just one session.

CaspianM wrote:
4) People do not like fetch quests.

People vary! Some like them just fine. But if your PCs don't, then they don't.

Doug M.


Doug,
To beat trolls at 1st level, what you really need is strong missle fire capability and extreme mobility. How fast are trolls anyway? 30' by my check, with no speed enhancing abilities. If you've got any movement enhancement at all (or you're mounted), you can probably just kite them around while you whittle them down. Their reflex and will saves are pretty rotten too, and their AC isn't great. My prescription involves tons of arrows or crossbow bolts, mounts, and greek fire for finishers.

Dark Archive

Alchemists have decent alpha strike potential with their bombs, but, like any alpha strike option, the GM is utterly in control of whether an encounter happens *after* they blow their wad.

Let the alchemist blow the holy crap out of the first wave, and don't tell him that there's a second wave. He may kill two dozen goblins in the first wave, and look like the most valuable player / overpowered / rock star, but when he's out of bombs, and the hobgoblins who were herding the goblins in first to soak up the first strike / test the defenses of the village show up, he's stuck with some extracts, a mutagen and some alchemist's fire.

An alchemist is no different than any other character dependent on expendable daily resources (like a wizard). Just remember to hit him occasionally with enough encounters that he has to occasionally fight *after* he's run out of bombs (sleep spells, whatever).

Plan it less like a 3.0 style 'every encounter must be epic / interesting / a precious snowflake' situation and more like a superhero game, where some encounters are *meant* to be blown up on the way to the big bad encounter. Just don't tell the player that and let him blow his bombs on the warm up encounter, by making it look threatening.

And when he figures that out and starts hoarding his bombs for the big final encounter? Re-schedule the big final encounter for the next day, so that he goes to bed having failed to use his 'overpowered' bombs at all, having carefully 'saving' them 'for later.'

The GM may lose a single battle, but will always win the war.


EWHM wrote:

Doug,

To beat trolls at 1st level, what you really need is strong missle fire capability and extreme mobility. How fast are trolls anyway? 30' by my check, with no speed enhancing abilities. If you've got any movement enhancement at all (or you're mounted), you can probably just kite them around while you whittle them down. Their reflex and will saves are pretty rotten too, and their AC isn't great. My prescription involves tons of arrows or crossbow bolts, mounts, and greek fire for finishers.

I guess that works if you encounter trolls while mounted and prepared for combat while on a featureless plain, but in something like a forest? I just don't see it happening. They can literally run you out of arrows.


Dire Mongoose,
If the engagement isn't favorable, and you've got the faster movement, then you just disengage. I've seen 1st level characters do it before when the terrain is right. I've also observed that doing things like that REALLY pisses off gamist or narrativist gamemasters. Fortunately, GMs of that stripe will rarely put you up against something that much higher CR than you. Simulationists like myself just don't care---you wandered into an area known to have rampaging trolls in small groups (1-4), you takes your chances.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
I guess that works if you encounter trolls while mounted and prepared for combat while on a featureless plain, but in something like a forest? I just don't see it happening. They can literally run you out of arrows.

I think the Kingmaker random encounter is on a plain just like you describe.

How 2d6+(mInt*2) damage with a bomb is able to take down critters with 63 HP, I don't know.

I'm guessing the trolls ran side by side towards the party, even after the first bomb blast. Once they closed with the party? I have no clue how more bombs could be thrown without hurting the party too.

Either way, something doesn't add up, and it's not that the bombs are overpowered.


Alchemist is a vivisectionist, so has sneak attack instead of throw bombs

The thing with the trolls ended up like this.

2 trolls outside of the potion maker guy's house. I didn't give them a chance to surprise the party mostly because I didn't really want to run the encounter.

The alchemist drinks his mutagen, then enlarges. With a longspear + enlarge his reach is 15 ft.

Troll 1 charges in, gets critted by the longspear. misses on the bite attack.

Party fires some fire arrows, lowers both the monster's regen.

Cavalier/Gendarme goes in on troll 1 for a rideby attack. Troll misses AoO, gets hit pretty hard. (Cavalier also has spirited charge)

Wizard casts grease, both trolls fall down.

At some point someone also throws a flask of alchemist fire.

Second round.

Alchemist steps back and stabs, hits does good damage.

barbarian charges in. Solid hit.

Druid throws a bear at one of the trolls.

Troll 1 stands up, gets AoOed critted again, dies.

Troll 2 gets mauled by the rest of the party.


Oh. Vivisectionist. How did he mutagen and enlarge? Did he use a potion of enlarge with the accelerated drinkers trait? That trait doesn't work with extracts.


Cheapy wrote:
Oh. Vivisectionist. How did he mutagen and enlarge? Did he use a potion of enlarge with the accelerated drinkers trait? That trait doesn't work with extracts.

It doesn't? Oh well that's good to know.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Resources expended: Fire arrows, alchemist's fire, grease spell. Party has initiative.

Drinking mutagen and enlarging are both standard actions and can't be done in the same round.

Party won initiative and the trolls rolled badly. Sounds like the party got lucky, you don't really need to change encounter balance for this.


CaspianM wrote:
It doesn't? Oh well that's good to know.

]]mystery solved!


Dire Mongoose wrote:
I guess that works if you encounter trolls while mounted and prepared for combat while on a featureless plain, but in something like a forest? I just don't see it happening. They can literally run you out of arrows.

Alchemists make regeneration irrelevant as long as they have bombs. We know the alchemist did 2 crits in 3 rounds. He probably had 18 int. By a strict reading of the originally printed text ignoring the table an alchemist does 2d6+int damage per bomb at level 1 with 1d6 of that damage not multiplied on crits.

Trolls have weak will and reflex saves. So weak they're in range of a first level caster. Clever use of silent image by a spontaneous caster could possibly buy enough time for ranged combatants to kill them if they were as lucky as the alchemist apparently was to crit twice in one fight with a narrow crit range weapon. A summoner could generate real distractions. So could a druid.

This would be an APL+5 fight and I think that's supposed to be possible for a well optimized slightly oversized party with hot dice. It sounds like that's what happened.

Or it could have been an encounter with trolls while mounted and prepared for combat on a featureless plain. Kingmaker does have plains and gives you horses as part of the loot in the opening battle. Hills can allow parthian tactics as well and IIRC there are some of those closer to the start position.

Liberty's Edge

LOL! I'm with everyone else and thought the alchemist managed some heavy damage with the bombs. Turns out he was just luck with a spear. x3 crit with a high strength will do a wonderful job on a troll. However, I have 2 questions with this that stand out in the description given above.
1)Your alchemist drank a Mutagen (Standard Action),and drank an Enlarge Person Infusion (Standard Action). I suppose its possible with the fast drinker trait to pull this off, but that would implie that he had either the mutagen or the infusion in hand and his longspear was already out. I think there was number of actions per round issue here.

2)How'd your druid get a BEAR at 1st level? Or was it the cute weak little thing from the bearshaman?

3)Where did the party get fire arrows at level 1? I know they are an alchemical item in the elves of Golarion, but they are more than a little costly at level 1.


Zephyre Al'dran wrote:

LOL! I'm with everyone else and thought the alchemist managed some heavy damage with the bombs. Turns out he was just luck with a spear. x3 crit with a high strength will do a wonderful job on a troll. However, I have 2 questions with this that stand out in the description given above.

1)Your alchemist drank a Mutagen (Standard Action),and drank an Enlarge Person Infusion (Standard Action). I suppose its possible with the fast drinker trait to pull this off, but that would implie that he had either the mutagen or the infusion in hand and his longspear was already out. I think there was number of actions per round issue here.

2)How'd your druid get a BEAR at 1st level? Or was it the cute weak little thing from the bearshaman?

3)Where did the party get fire arrows at level 1? I know they are an alchemical item in the elves of Golarion, but they are more than a little costly at level 1.

1) Player playing the alchemist is "bad at math" (ie misinterprets things to his advantage from time to time) The breaking down of accelerated drinker mutagen/enlarge combo is rather good.

2) Its kind of a bear not a BEAR. Yeah its the first level druid thing. Surprisingly so far the druid PC doesn't feel really OP or anything yet.

3) yeah I should stick to core rules more. I think they wanted to just wrap linens and pitch around an arrowhead, which seems rather a cheap trick to do (as it is not supported by the rules)

Silver Crusade

^

What the others said. Also, enlarge person has a casting time of one round also subject to concentration checks, not a "standard action".


Maxximilius wrote:

^

What the others said. Also, enlarge person has a casting time of one round also subject to concentration checks, not a "standard action".

All alchemists extracts have a casting time of a standard action.


The FAQ that shoots the idea of Accelerated Drinker working with Extracts full of holes.

Added bonus of being unambiguous.


My thoughts so far, having run up near the end of C3. I intend to outline some of the things that work for challenging players (/weaknesses), and to outline what you can expect players to do against them. If you see your players doing a lot of these things, you may need to up the ante, because the countermeasures render a lot of encounters into steamrolls.

1) A lot of them rely on ambushes, for example, and have little else going for them. For this reason, Perception, Low-light vision, Darkvision and especially Scent are all god-abilities. The Leucrotta was truly pitiful -- but not as much as the Giant Flytrap! Oh heavens, you should rewrite that encounter.

2) One of your best tactics for challenging players will be night encounters, where you catch some of your players sleeping and some without their armor. It becomes increasingly difficult to challenge players as they use spells like Campfire Wall or Rope Trick, as they gain Rings of Sustenance so they can have nighttime watches with fewer sleeping characters, and as they acquire Mithril Medium armor, so it counts as Light armor and can be slept in without the sleeper being Fatigued.

3) Another potent weapon of the enemies is the terrain itself -- sitting on steep hills, above or below cliffs, swimming underwater, swooping down from the sky, lurking with Earth Glide or nesting around Difficult Terrain.

These enemies can be frustrating to fight, but canny players can neutralize nearly all of their problems with Fly or Air Walk (to a truly obnoxious degree, actually). With my group in particular, they had both (Cleric/Druid/Wizard), and they saved on spells by having party members ride the druid and her animal companion (three castings were all that were required and the whole party was flying, capable of peppering enemies like animals or trolls to death safely).

As soon as your players gain access to these spells, you may need to prepare yourself to switch out enemies or give them challenging ranged attacks. It really feels like my monsters are gaining countermeasures against this a whole book late.


4) A lot of enemies have a really neat one-trick ability that can be easily nullified. Several monsters have strong poisons (such as the Peluda, which nearly killed my party after it died) which can be remedied with Delay Poison and dealt with later / Remove Poison; a truly incredible number of monsters are focused on Grab and grapple, which is easily eliminated by Freedom of Movement; there are a couple creatures (elementals, mastodons) that Bull Rush / Overrun (which, admittedly I can't think of much to counter). I was actually surprised by how few creatures trip (which is ruined by Fly; flying creatures cannot be tripped). I only remember the wolves and worgs.

5) There are monsters that are particularly resistant to PCs that you will see several times -- Vermin and Plants. Beyond that, the occasional Undead, and rarely Oozes and Constructs. They've consistently given my optimized party some pause, if not challenge.

6) You need to be very wary if your players start looking at item creation feats. One of the normal counterbalanaces to item creation is that the players' time is limited; in Kingmaker, this limit is outright withdrawn (they have enough time to craft almost everything the party wants during the adventure, much less in the years of kingdom building). Kingmaker is the adventure path that finally makes item creation worth the investment, and unfortunately, it makes it overpowered and unusable unless you want to rewrite every treasure handout.


There was more but my post got eaten. tl;dr - rebuild your NPCs.


CaspianM wrote:
4) People do not like fetch quests.

In Kingmaker, you don't have to finish the quests one at a time. A valid course of action is to leave "town" and run around exploring until the players want to go back to "town" and sell their loot. I think that makes fetch quests much more tolerable.


Greetings, fellow travellers.

Again, really sound advice given by Troubleshooter - I handle it the same way and have taken the random out of most encounters, e. g. consider the thread by Dudemaster concerning the monster kingdom.
Roll beforehand to come up with the encounters, so you can stat them up add a little here and there. I also tend to add 1-3 HD, use the advanced template on the monsters or add 1-2 monsters of the same kind, otherwise my party would just laugh at everything I throw at them.

Also, play the (humanoid) monsters smart, if your group can disengage, so can they. Doubling/trippling their base movement should be no problem for them and with their superior CON, they should be able to outrun the PCs/stay ahead of them until the PCs get bored.

The trolls, well, I rolled up four of them and even though my players where mounted I managed to reduce the paladin from full health to 1 hp and killed his horse.

Ruyan.


CaspianM wrote:
3) yeah I should stick to core rules more. I think they wanted to just wrap linens and pitch around an arrowhead, which seems rather a cheap trick to do (as it is not supported by the rules)

It's not that you should stick to the core rules more - it's that you should apply appropriate downsides to whatever the PCs want to do. They want to make makeshift fire arrows? Sure, provided they have linens and pitch at hand, they can do so (in advance!), but they have a -4 to attacks (they're now badly weighted and off balance), you have to have a ready source of flame available and already lit (preferably a torch, maybe a lantern) which will probably take a hand to hold it (preventing you from using a bow), and it takes a move action to light an arrow on fire. If they just want to create them on the fly, say that it takes a full round action to create a single arrow.

This leaves it as a perfectly legitimate tactic, but attaches sacrifices they may not want to make. I could totally see an entire party going "I see trolls 500' away across the clear plain. Quick, we need to burn them!" and forming into an assembly line - two characters wrap arrows, one lights them on fire, one shoots them at the trolls... But it's not something they're going to go "Augh! We got jumped by trolls. We need fire arrows stat!"

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