| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Ok, so I have looked and can't find much about this that is clear enough for my brother so I will ask it here.
My brother says greater vital strike and greater called shot can be combined for the uber strike. I told him he is wrong as you have to do vital strike as a standard action and a called shot is a separate attack, even though you can make multiple called shots with greater but you cannot make a "Greater vital strike Called shot to the head".
Who is right?
|
Greater Called Shot :
"Benefit: Whenever you make an attack, [...]"
A Vital Strike is a standard action where you do an attack.
Note that GCS doesn't need you to use an "Attack Action", which is it's own kind of standard action. I'd say your brother is right.
And spending three feats for being good at making your enemies explode with a bow at level 12, when he could do the same thing with three less feats and shoot 6 arrows when hasted, doesn't scream overpowered to me.
EDIT : sorry, spending 6 feats to do it.
Uh...hm.
You can make multiple called shots where others could land but one.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Called Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Whenever you make an attack, you can choose to replace that attack with a called shot. You can make multiple called shots in a single round. Each additional called shot after the first made in the same round takes a –5 penalty. In addition, a called shot that deals half the creature's hit points of damage (minimum 40) is a debilitating blow.
Normal: You can make only one called shot in a round as a standard action. A called shot that deals 50 points of damage is a debilitating blow.
So you replace the attack. Greater Vital Strike is an attack action to do.
So you'd rev up for a Vital Strike...
and replace it with a normal called strike.
It doesn't work, unless I'm missing something.
edit: I guess it depends on what "replace" means in this context.
|
|
So you replace the attack. Greater Vital Strike is an attack action to do.
So you'd rev up for a Vital Strike...
and replace it with a normal called strike.
It doesn't work, unless I'm missing something.
Well, your reading is also good. O_o
The rules DO say you replace the attack... so it seems that you may indeed do a Vital strike, but you would still deal normal damage. I don't know the Called Shot rules, so I don't know if allowing the additional damage would be overpowered.
Further research:
A called shot is a single attack made as a full-round action, and thus can't be combined with a charge, feats like Vital Shot, or multiple attacks with a full-attack action.
The reason it couldn't work with Vital Strike (vital shot -_-) was because it was a full-round action.
So I guess it does work.
Well he is saying since the text says "Whenever you make an attack.." is why he would be able to do it as a one hitter quitter with his monk. I am saying that a called shot is still its own action and can't be combined with another action which vital strike is. My other argument is if that feat somehow turns called shot into a non-action( which is his belief) that it says "replaces" which takes away any benefit from vital strike. I just find it hard to believe that called shots don't count as an attack and can be applied anywhere. If they can be cool but I bet not.
|
|
Well he is saying since the text says "Whenever you make an attack.." is why he would be able to do it as a one hitter quitter with his monk. I am saying that a called shot is still its own action and can't be combined with another action which vital strike is. My other argument is if that feat somehow turns called shot into a non-action( which is his belief) that it says "replaces" which takes away any benefit from vital strike. I just find it hard to believe that called shots don't count as an attack and can be applied anywhere. If they can be cool but I bet not.
Power Attack is also a non-action. Your first argument it moot since GCS explicitely says you replace an attack, so a GCS isn't it's own action, it replaces the effect of an attack ; since you could even full-attack GCS.
The problem is that I don't think it can be applied with the benefits of Vital Strike... but at the same time, Vital Strike isn't it's own action either, it is an effect added to the attack action.So, I think they stack by RAW.
A Vital Strike is a standard action where you do an attack.
Just to clarify, Vital Strike is not, itself, a standard action. Vital Strike can apply when you use the Attack action, which is a standard action.
This is important because there are other things that can apply to an Attack action, which work with Vital Strike, but wouldn't work if VS was it's own standard action. (Overhand Chop, for example)
For the OP, the rules contradict themselves. Since they're variant rules anyway, you'll just have to ask your DM how he is going to run it. If you're the DM, you could ask in the advice forum on how to run the rules without becoming unbalanced.
Making Called Shots: "A called shot is a single attack made as a full-round action, and thus can’t be combined with a charge, feats like Vital Strike, or multiple attacks with a full-attack action."
Improved Called Shot: "Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on attack rolls when making a called shot. When taking a full-round or standard action that gives you multiple attacks, you can replace a single attack with a called shot. You may only attempt one called shot per round.
Normal: You can make one called shot per round as a standard action."
Greater Called Shot: "Benefit: Whenever you make an attack, you can choose to replace that attack with a called shot. You can make multiple called shots in a single round. Each additional called shot after the first made in the same round takes a –5 penalty. In addition, a called shot that deals half the creature’s hit points of damage (minimum 40) is a debilitating blow.
Normal: You can make only one called shot in a round as a standard action. A called shot that deals 50 points of damage is a debilitating blow."
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Actually this is something I've been wondering too, though in the pairing of Vital Strike with other special attacks such as Grappling to deal damage (though this would likely require the use of the Imp Grapple, Greater Grapple, &/or Rapid Grappler feats to reduce grappling to a standard action or less). Other combat maneuvers such as disarms and trips can be substituted for attacks for instance (though in these cases they deal no damage).
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
The key to this question seems to be tied to the fact that Vital Strike requires you to use the attack action, which is by definition a standard attack. However, you can substitute a standard attack for a special attack such as a Called Shot or a Grapple to deal damage.
So, I'm gonna press the FAQ button and pose this question: If you can substitute a special attack for a standard attack, does that attack still count as a standard attack for the purposes of feats such as Vital Strike?
The key to this question seems to be tied to the fact that Vital Strike requires you to use the attack action, which is by definition a standard attack.
Standard Action, not standard attack.
You choose to use the Attack Action, which is a Standard Action. When doing so, you can apply Vital Strike.
However, you can substitute a standard attack for a special attack such as a Called Shot or a Grapple to deal damage.
Grapple is a bad example.
Grapple: "As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options."
Greater Grapple lets you maintain as a move action, not as part of an attack action.
Rapid Grappler lets you make a grapple CM check as a swift action, not as part of an attack action.
yes but what about the replaces part?
yes but what about the replaces part?
Who is the GM?
The rules are far too contradictory to really answer, I think.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
yes but what about the replaces part?
You need an actual rule to ask about. Like this:
Vital Strike: "When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage."
Sunder: "You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
So you use the Attack action (a standard action), and in place of the attack, you make a Sunder combat maneuver. If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, and this one would be made at your highest BAB, so does it deal additional damage? Or, since the Sunder replaces the attack with which you would normally have used Vital Strike, and because it says you deal damage normally, does that mean you don't get double your weapon dice on the Sunder damage roll?
(I don't know the answer, I'm just trying to phrase the question properly)
Thank you Grick, that is a much better scenario in which to pose that question!
Though as for the Grapple maneuver I don't see why, as it is an attack which requires a standard action and deals damage, it couldn't also fall under this scenario.
Regardless, your wording is appreciated. :)
Yes, that is better. To me replace means it doesn't do what it was going to do and instead does what the replacement attack is. I mean why else would they put "replaces" in the wording? Yargh rules!
I would say that it doesn´t work. Thanks to Gricks excellent quotes, I would say that the word replace kills the idea, once you replace the shot it´s no longer a vital strike.
Ignoring for one moment that the combination is a bit too good for my taste.
BTW Greater Called Shot allows you to use it with rays ^^
The feats mention, that you can use them on attacks gained from standard actions - IMO this is intended to allow the use of sniping, or shot and run tactics. The Vital Strike feat chain essentially does the same as called shot, extra precision to do more damage - so IMO they should not stack.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
I would say that it doesn´t work. Thanks to Gricks excellent quotes, I would say that the word replace kills the idea, once you replace the shot it´s no longer a vital strike.
Ignoring for one moment that the combination is a bit too good for my taste.
BTW Greater Called Shot allows you to use it with rays ^^
The feats mention, that you can use them on attacks gained from standard actions - IMO this is intended to allow the use of sniping, or shot and run tactics. The Vital Strike feat chain essentially does the same as called shot, extra precision to do more damage - so IMO they should not stack.
I'd certainly support using vital strike with a standard action called shot. :)
Actually I reconsidered, go for it, thought about what I can do with a magus and called shots - it´s not pretty ^^