I'm looking for advice from people who know a thing or two about warfare. I have compiled a lot of data for this particular campaign but don't exactly know what to do with it. My campaign is set in Middle-earth in the year 2758 T.A., but you don't necessarily need to be a Middle-earth expert to help me out.
The campaign starts in this area, and most of the war takes place on this map
http://users.abo.fi/jumppa/Atlas_of_Middle-earth_-_maps/the_white_mountains .gif
Tolkien says in this year "three great fleets, long prepared, came up from Umbar and Harad, and assailed the coasts of Gondor in great force; the enemy made many landings, even as far north as the mouth of the Isen." Of the outcome, Tolkien only says that Gondor had "overcome" their enemies by Spring of the following year. This particular war is important because it kept Gondor from sending aid to Rohan, who was having troubles of its own. The devastation caused by both wars and a harsh winter in Rohan is what led the Steward of Gondor to give Saruman the Keys to Orthanc.
I'm trying to figure out some sort of timeline for how the war would play out, so that I can put the PCs in the middle of it. Gondor is a pretty big area to invade, even if you do have three great fleets. I don't actually know anything about war, and I suck at war strategy games. I have no idea how big a fleet might be, where they would attack first, how Gondor would react, how fast Gondor's armies could communicate with each other, etc. This is a low-magic setting, so no flying carpets or sending spells.
Some raw data. Gondor has a population of about 400 thousand, with roughly 30-35 thousand living in Minas Tirith (the capitol). After Minas Tirith, the second largest population centers are Pelargir and Dol Amorth, which are both port cities able to deploy sizable naval forces. Most people live in Lossarnach, Lebennin, along the coasts, or along the River Morthond. West of the River Morthond, the land is mostly uninhabited (only about 5000 people for that large area). Another important strategic location is Tolfalas, where Gondor maintains a watchtower and token naval force. We know that at least part of Umbar's forces traveled to the Mouths of the Isen, far outside of Gondor's territory. It's likely they were not part of the war but went to help the Dunlendings that were invading Rohan at that time. It's possible to travel from Gondor to Umbar by land, crossing the River Poros, and while Umbar has invaded Gondor by that way at other times, Tolkien doesn't mention any land battles occurring in this year.
There's a road that goes from Minas Tirith through the heartland of Gondor and ends at Erech. In LOTR, it took Aragorn (with an army of Rangers and undead) about 7 days to travel from Erech to Minas Tirith by horse and then by ship. He was in a Big Hurry and was partially aided by divine powers. There are several important bridges along this road that could hinder an army's movement if destroyed.
The campaign has already started and it is summer of 2758 T.A. Umbar has been harassing Gondor's coasts for years now, so news of ships sacking coastal towns is nothing new. However, the PCs are just starting to get the sense that a major invasion has begun. In addition, the Steward's son Beregond is currently captured by orcs in the wilds of Anfalas, and one of the PCs' first missions will be to rescue him. I intend for the war to be happening around the PCs without them getting too involved, as they will have missions of their own.
I do have access to a lot of the old MERP books, which I absolutely love. They are good at filling in details that Tolkien left out. However they're very dense and don't always have the information that I want, especially if the book is set hundreds of years before or after my campaign.
Well, they're 3rd level but really more 2 1/2 level because I'm making them all take an NPC class. The reason being that Middle-earth is a bit more mundane than your average fantasy realm. They also don't have a lot of access to a lot of magic and healing. That's the kind of campaign it is. The campaign will go to about 10th level, but they'll be far from Gondor by that point.
So gnomersy I get that you're saying the war as Tolkien describes it is unrealistic? Because all Tolkien talks about is the invasion by sea. Of course, it's possible that Umbar didn't send any land forces because their goal was simply to harass Gondor and keep them from sending aid to Rohan.
Gondor is supposed to be pretty weak militarily at this point in history, so I don't know if they would be able to send an army as far south as Umbar. They had sacked Umbar a couple times in the past, when they were stronger, but this is far into Gondor's decline. They'd have to be in pretty dire straits to even consider it.
Would Gondor try to reclaim their ports first? How long would that take? How long would it take to muster all those 40 thousand men? I'm trying to find a plausible way to stretch this conflict out for 8 months. (u_u);;
I know this isn't a question you asked, but it's a bit of advice I feel should be passed on: let the PCs be important. I say this because war campaigns, do to the thousands of combatants involved, can very easily fall into the trap where the PCs are insignificant grunts who's actions don't effect much, and that makes for a bad RP. Essentially, the PCs are being treated as a sideshow when they should be the main attraction. Not good. The players should be part of an elite unit, engaging in small unit actions, some of the few remaining friendly troops in an area, or otherwise in a situation where what they do has a direct effect on the outcome of the battle.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE military RPs. I love them to death. It's just that it is really easy to do them poorly, and I want to impart some advice on how not to.
Well you're probably looking at an army which is no more than 10% of the total population of Gondor so say 40 thousand men spread across the entire realm.
That many? Really? Seems like it'd be really hard to equip that large an army without magic or mass production. Not to mention getting enough food to them.
10% population under arms isn't insanely unusual. 20% is when you're seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel (using old men, younger boys than normal, and some of the more capable women). There's a lot of good material for what you're trying to accomplish in the old Companion and Masters sets (under the 'War Machine' and the Naval rules introduced in the 1st module for the Master's set---Into the Maelstrom was the name. It'll give you a lot of economic material to work from.
Wasn't Aragorn involved in this war in disguise, or was that a later war?
It's not insanely unusual if you have mass production. Middle Earth doesn't is my understanding. What worries me is forging that many spears and transporting the qualtities of food needed without it all spoiling. Making massive armies with medieval tech and little magic is not easy. At all. There is a reason medieval battles were generally not that large.
True but this is the realm of Gondor I mean they're supposed to be pretty bad ass and prepared for war plus it isn't a small area either Then again you could easily halve that or take a quarter of it and run with it but the army Aragon marched off with was something like 7000 and was supposed to be no more than the vanguard of the armies of Gondor of old. So I dunno it's really up to you but the armies need to be equal.Well you're probably looking at an army which is no more than 10% of the total population of Gondor so say 40 thousand men spread across the entire realm.That many? Really? Seems like it'd be really hard to equip that large an army without magic or mass production. Not to mention getting enough food to them.
Wow. I guess there is a reason LOTR is called epic fantasy.
Supplying armies generally requires they be very close to home OR at the end of a water-based supply line (roads are a poor substitute) for this era. You could have 10% of your men under arms, but the size of your manuever armies will be much smaller, granted, for logistical reasons.It's not insanely unusual if you have mass production. Middle Earth doesn't is my understanding. What worries me is forging that many spears and transporting the qualtities of food needed without it all spoiling. Making massive armies with medieval tech and little magic is not easy. At all. There is a reason medieval battles were generally not that large.10% population under arms isn't insanely unusual. 20% is when you're seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel (using old men, younger boys than normal, and some of the more capable women). There's a lot of good material for what you're trying to accomplish in the old Companion and Masters sets (under the 'War Machine' and the Naval rules introduced in the 1st module for the Master's set---Into the Maelstrom was the name. It'll give you a lot of economic material to work from.
Wasn't Aragorn involved in this war in disguise, or was that a later war?
A million times this. I hate it when people assume that nations at war fight battles with their entire armies in one place.
I'm not really sure I can say much more on whether Gondor can handle an army that big. I'm not a fan of Tolkien's writing, so I don't know that much about Middle Earth. I was just surprised at the 10% under arms figure for a low magic medieval army.
I'm not really sure I can say much more on whether Gondor can handle an army that big. I'm not a fan of Tolkien's writing, so I don't know that much about Middle Earth. I was just surprised at the 10% under arms figure for a low magic medieval army.10% under arms comes from the old Companion set, for what you get when you're calling up your militia to defend your domain (typically no more than one 30 mile across hex). It's a poor troop class. 20% is what happens when you call up EVERYONE that can even vaguely bear arms. It's a wretched troop class.
I think Machievelli also mentions 10% as a maximum for any nation to have under arms on any sort of a sustained basis in his writings.
Oh, I'd believe it as militia armed with whatever is lying around their house, just not as a well armed and trained army or an army that you could go campaigning with.
I think you are underestimating mans ability to do war in a pre-industrial time. Well prior to medieval times Alexander led armies at huge distances... you have to worry about the logistics of supply but taking it with you is not the only way (armies typically lived off the land... Kind of like human locust). This made scorched earth policies VERY effective against an invading army... but at great cost to your own people.
Likewise, just from my recent podcast listening (the History of Rome) I know that Roman and Persian armies numbered around 40k pretty often and the bigger fights were upwards of 100-200k on each side. I think I can safely call them low-magic armies as well (despite some of the stories of miracles).
Here is a linked version of the map:
The White Mountains
For the OP let me see if I can give my take (I am not a military guy, so this is just a guy who enjoys history but has no particular specialty there).
10% of the population seems reasonable given that Gondor was a very militaristic society. I would then modify that with how long it has been (in decades) since their last war and if there is any info on how devastating that war was. Rome for instance would have peace for a while then blow up into civil wars with huge armies, but after a few wars this way the armies seemed a lot smaller... something about all your soldiers dying in combat.
You would likely want to Split that 10% up across the nation, likely heavily favoring the southern borders. It sounds like the fleets incursions into Gondor sort of took it by surprise, so I wouldn't expect that anymore than 1% of the total population was under arms on the coast.
As for the enemies plans, I think assuming that their main goal was two-fold (you always have to know the goal in a military outing, or there is trouble) 1) Keep Gondor busy so that they don't reinforce Rohan 2) Get phat loot. Both of these goals could be met by looting, plundering and pillaging.
I would likely make it so that Gondor is hit hard by surprise in a coordinated fashion. In this case I would have one navy sail north and destroy the fleets at Dol Amroth in surprise attack (Pearl Harbor style) before moving in and blockading the River Ringlo Tarnost, sacking Edhellond and generally looting and pillaging the countryside, perhaps having their marine style forces set eventual siege to the city of Dol Amroth.
At the same time, in a coordinated move, the other two fleets would hit the general area of the mouth of the Anduin. The first fleet cutting off access from the fleets leaving Tolfalas and perhaps destroying their harbor (cutting them off and essentially taking them out of the fight), before moving north (this would be the fleet I would say moved north sacking the countryside and making it as far north as the River Isen, so other than taken out the island of Tolfalas wouldn't play a large role in the campaign).
Finally the third fleet would attempt to blockade and raid from a location at the mouth of the Anduin and keeping Linhir from being a secondary port of departure.
This would basically have the effect of cutting off (in the case of the fleet at Palagir) or destroying the fleets of Gondor and giving the invading and sacking armies the run of the land for a while.
It only takes a year to get things under control, so I would really break that year into two main sections. First would be the breaking of the blockade of the Anduin and the second would be the siege of Dol Amroth.
Though, they really could be in any order. For example, perhaps they blockaded Dol Amroth but were not able to destroy their ships (just keeping them pinned down) and when a land army from Gondor appears and eventually breaks the siege then those ships could be a fleet that circles around and hits the lower fleet from behind (picking up sailors and what not in Tolfalas).
I kind of even like that second idea better... have the fleets from Pelargir somehow ported overland to Linhir where they are not expected while the northern fleet circles around, they hem in the southern enemy fleet and destroy it.
Anyway... don't know if this is going to be JUST background in the campaign, or how far I should get into it... but that is the ideas I would have when looking at the map and what you described.
If you are planning on having the PCs involved in any amount of warfare, I would highly recommend the 3.5 book, Heroes of Battle, which has both some mass combat stuff and really talks about how to make the PCs run through important tactical battles that affect the overall battle. (The Redhand of Doom adventure showed these off pretty nicely).
Anyway... good luck with this! Again, I am not a historian, military guy, or Tolkien aficionado... just my two cents looking over the map and taking in the info you gave me only.
Sean Mahoney
I think you are underestimating mans ability to do war in a pre-industrial time. Well prior to medieval times Alexander led armies at huge distances... you have to worry about the logistics of supply but taking it with you is not the only way (armies typically lived off the land... Kind of like human locust). This made scorched earth policies VERY effective against an invading army... but at great cost to your own people.
Likewise, just from my recent podcast listening (the History of Rome) I know that Roman and Persian armies numbered around 40k pretty often and the bigger fights were upwards of 100-200k on each side. I think I can safely call them low-magic armies as well (despite some of the stories of miracles).
Ancient armies are not medieval armies. They were not organized, recruited, or trained the same way, and I would actually argue them to be superior to feudal forces in all respects except equipment.
As for the 10% argument, with militia, absolutely, but as a long term standing army? No way. Not even a modern country could pull that off.
If you are planning on having the PCs involved in any amount of warfare, I would highly recommend the 3.5 book, Heroes of Battle, which has both some mass combat stuff and really talks about how to make the PCs run through important tactical battles that affect the overall battle. (The Redhand of Doom adventure showed these off pretty nicely).
I concur. I love my copy to death.
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I agree with kelsey... A good source of info is the 3.5 book Heroes of Battle
It is intended for use by Dungeon Masters who want to incorporate large-scale, epic battles into their game. It contains ideas for wartime adventures, new rules for wartime games, and military-oriented feats, prestige classes and NPCs (non-player characters).
Wasn't Aragorn involved in this war in disguise, or was that a later war?
This campaign is taking place 250 years before The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn has not even been born yet.
To address what everyone else is talking about, yes, Middle-earth is a terribly unrealistic place when you take a good look at it. It's very sparsely populated, there's really no trade routes or economy to speak of (there's some in the North with the dwarves traveling from Erebor to the Blue Mountains and back again), and Tolkien doesn't really go into details about governments, day-to-day lives, levels of technology, etc.
MERP tries to fill in some of these gaps by saying that Gondor trades with the Grey Havens (the Elves) and Umbar (when they're not at war). The first doesn't fit with Tolkien's writing because in the Third Age, Men were supposed to be "estranged" from the Elves, but at least it's an attempt.
Tolkien DOES say that Gondor (and Númenor before it) were mighty seafaring powers. Gondor's power waned throughout the Third Age, but at one time they were basically able to send ships anywhere and do what they liked with them. About 800 years prior to my campaign, Gondor DID send a fleet of ships led by their Crown Prince to land at the Grey Havens and assist the Elves in destroying the Witch-King of Angmar, who had completely decimated the Kingdom of Armor by that point. By the time of MY campaign, Gondor's naval strength is much less. My guess is they are able to patrol the waters along the coast and the island of Tolfalas but little else.
Pelgargir and Dol Amroth are both port cities, and they wouldn't have port cities if they didn't have a navy and/or some kind of sea trade.
For the OP let me see if I can give my take (I am not a military guy, so this is just a guy who enjoys history but has no particular specialty there).
Thanks Sean, that really gives me a lot of ideas to work with. You rock! And the war is mostly background for the PCs. The PCs are not soldiers, they are adventurers involved in a quest to find artifacts and stop Sauron from destroying the world. The war is background. They will be involved in some battles (like I said, their first mission is to save the Captain of Gondor's armies) but mostly they'll be trying to figure out how to stay away from the marauding armies so they can get their jobs done.
New question-- what about army movement? How do I determine how fast an army moves, using the overland movement rules in the Core Rulebook? Can I assume that a trained army can hustle and do a forced march without too much trouble? What about horses? If it's a small force (say a detachment of knights or a company of rangers), can I assume that every unit has a horse, and would they be light horses or heavy horses? I don't really understand the difference.
Thanks, Lightbulb, I'll have to take a good look at these articles later. I'm not sure that there's anything in them that pertains to Pathfinder movement rules, though. :)
So gnomersy I get that you're saying the war as Tolkien describes it is unrealistic? Because all Tolkien talks about is the invasion by sea. Of course, it's possible that Umbar didn't send any land forces because their goal was simply to harass Gondor and keep them from sending aid to Rohan.
Gondor is supposed to be pretty weak militarily at this point in history, so I don't know if they would be able to send an army as far south as Umbar. They had sacked Umbar a couple times in the past, when they were stronger, but this is far into Gondor's decline. They'd have to be in pretty dire straits to even consider it.
Would Gondor try to reclaim their ports first? How long would that take? How long would it take to muster all those 40 thousand men? I'm trying to find a plausible way to stretch this conflict out for 8 months. (u_u);;
Invasion by sea is quite a different animal than a naval battle. Invasion implies land battles as well. For example, D-Day at Normandy (WW2) was an invasion by sea of occupied France.
Master Arminas