The PAthfinder Reference Document contains most of the rules, and its free. That will give you a way to check out the rules without paying anything. Just stick with the stuff under Core Rulebook. (Or Bestiary if you want to look at monsters.)
I have played rpgs ranging from dungeons and dragons white box, to 4th edition (i skipped adnd2, 3.0, and3.5) I saw pathfinder at my local comic store and literally almost cried... the beginner box looked beautiful. however, i would like to take the true plunge into the core book. is this a wise decision? what exactly does the core book cover? and how is the character creation handled? are the powers cheeky and annoying like 4th edition, or cheap and pervasive like in advanced? how does the game play out? is it rules-light, or are you smothered (like 4th ed) in rules? please let me know before i take the plunge in the core book.
Pathfinder is the same game as 3.0/3.5. It is often called 3.75 because it is basically the next evolution of the rules.
Pathfinder has been extremely play-tested.
You're not just getting rules your getting rules that have history of working.
It isn't rules light. But it's far more realistic when compared to 4e.
Pathfinder works and works very well. I highly suggest buying the core rule book and bestiary which is all you need to play
Before you buy, check out the PRD. The link is on the left hand side of the screen, beneath Pathfinder @ and Roleplaying Game. Just look at the core stuff, the stuff in the Core Rulebook. It is really very much like 3.5, in fact the original Pathfinder motto was '3.5 survives, scratch that, 3.5 thrives!'.
lol, from the cover of one of their Preview books.
If you were happy with 3.5, you will ecstatic with Pathfinder.
Master Arminas
I have played rpgs ranging from dungeons and dragons white box, to 4th edition (i skipped adnd2, 3.0, and3.5) I saw pathfinder at my local comic store and literally almost cried... the beginner box looked beautiful. however, i would like to take the true plunge into the core book. is this a wise decision? what exactly does the core book cover? and how is the character creation handled? are the powers cheeky and annoying like 4th edition, or cheap and pervasive like in advanced? how does the game play out? is it rules-light, or are you smothered (like 4th ed) in rules? please let me know before i take the plunge in the core book.
Start with just the core book and you'll be fine work slowly from their and add in new books when your ready.
Thank you so much, this will help my decision tenfold!
I must warn. Pathfinder/3.5/3.0 are ruined if you don't respect the rules.
In AD&D you often have to skip rules because it would slow down the game. In Pathfinder I highly suggest that if you skip a rule you fully understand that rule for next session so you won't have to skip it.
Also don't change rules... not for your first couple of games anyway.
I seldom play anymore, but I do DM. Look, if you have a chance to get a copy of the original 1st Edition DMG, I think you will appreciate E. Gary Gygax a lot more know as an adult than as a teenager. Unlike later editions, it didn't spell out precise rules: it taught you how to run a campaign and choose things for yourself that worked with your group. The detail contained within that volume in mindblowing, and I am so glad that my copy never decided to take a walk.
Master Arminas
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I didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.
We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.
(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).
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I thonk honestly we just had a crappy dungeon master for the whole 5 years I played... I literally just started reading the dungeon master guide, and this is not the game I remember playing at allI didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.
(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).
We did have a lot of crappy Dms back then, probably the reason the hobby peaked in the '80s.
Sorry if I offended you
Like water of a ducks back. Don't mind the trolls.
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Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean what I said (I never actually read the DM guide, only the phb, it was good, but made 0 sense, so I think thats what set me off of it. I mean, how could elves not be druids? that made no sense.. but I had hours of fun being an evil cleric zombifying the stuff we just killed)lolWe did have a lot of crappy Dms back then, probably the reason the hobby peaked in the '80s.I thonk honestly we just had a crappy dungeon master for the whole 5 years I played... I literally just started reading the dungeon master guide, and this is not the game I remember playing at allI didnt mean to give gygax a blow, he's a childhood hero.. but i felt that adnd1 coulod have been alot better, i felt gipped by the game.. there was little substance.We played completely different AD&Ds then. The one I played was, by sheer number of players, by and far the most popular edition of the game. The one that lazy Gygax gypped all of the players with.
(And, don't argue about the numbers, someone who has actually seen the sales data for 1e, 2e and 3x backed up my statement a while back. RPGs aren't nearly the huge phenomenon they were in the '80s).
Eh, I just get a little bent out of shape when people rag on Gary. It would be like ragging in Henry Ford because he didn't produce a car as good as, say, a Camry in 1920. Or that the first Zenith wasn't 1080p and 3d capable.
Read the DMG, then the MM, and then the PHB. In that order. And I think you will find that a lot more things make sense today, and see just how much people have, over the years, dumbed down Gygax's rules, because of the sheer detail that the man created.
It does make it difficult for a single DM to run, but he even covers THAT in the DMG and offers advice. It is well worth the read.
Master Arminas
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Read the DMG, then the MM, and then the PHB. In that order. And I think you will find that a lot more things make sense today, and see just how much people have, over the years, dumbed down Gygax's rules, because of the sheer detail that the man created.
It does make it difficult for a single DM to run, but he even covers THAT in the DMG and offers advice. It is well worth the read.
Master Arminas
I still love reading the 1e DMG. It was written to be read. Unlike the modern incarnations of D&D that read like stereo instructions.
Based off your intial question, if you thought 4E was smothered in rules, I think you will find PF even worse in that aspect. Part of the complaints about 4E was throwing out too many of the rules, or over-simplifying the game.
You have many more options at your disposal, but every option gets tied up in a rule, and some often need to be cross-referenced from multiple sources. I played every iteration from 1 to 4, and as a Rules lawyer, the rules became too much for me and my group.
Like said above, though, you can just ignore some of them. You have to understand them before you can ignore them, or it can throw off the system. They have a very good simulationist approach, but to achieve this it takes a lot of rules to accomplish. I'm not saying this makes the game bad, just that you had mentioned 4e was rules heavy for you.
Hackmaster isn't TOO bad a system. I just hate the name.
Master Arminas
pathfinder looks promising, like it is returning to some good roots
I wouldn't say returning. Not deserting.
That's the thing aapch1, they may not be powers per se, but every action has a ruleset.
Grabbing follows the grapple rules (CMB now)
Throwing lightning uses SO MANY spell rules (DC, saves, range, durations, schools, casting times), but once you get them down in general they are easy to use for all
Paladin's smite has its own rule
Ranger favored enemy has it own rules
Rogue's sneak attacks
Druid's wild shape
Sorcerer's bloodlines
Fighter's bravery, weapon and armor training
Barbarian's Rage
Cleric's channeling
And each is incorporated with keywords, definitions and subtext that often bears looking up until you have it down. As a player it gets easy as you only need to learn one class at a time. but as a DM needing to be aware of all the p;layers have at their disposal, and the monsters as well provides for a fairly steep learning curve.
Again, I played 3.0, 3.5, and now PF, since 3.0 came out and they were the best systems for me. I just got rules burnout. This may also be from a Rules lawyer that plays the game with every rule in use.
You'll want to be careful dissing Gygax. There are a few people around here who worship the man, and a lot more with major respect for him.
Yeah, but the vast majority of us with love for him also understand his penchant for creating PC grinders, his not-always-focused-on-logic eye, his sometime bending of his own rules, etc.
Point is, he cared about what he was doing, and he and Dave deserve props for creating the wellspring from which all RPG goodness flows. No harm in that.
Now in that regard I will quote houstonderek
"Any RPG is only as good or bad as the effort you put into it."
I have played every version from red box on, and as a rules lawyer love structure. The rules may come across as lacking in flavor or Rp, but that's because they are just that, rules.
We have no less RP in our 4E than we do playing any other game. It relies heavily on the Dm, and is for every player to do their part to introduce the RP into a game. There are no rules for how to RP, as they are not needed.
The biggest in-game RULE for how to RP is alignment, and look how many disagreements it causes, or how many people just remove it from their system.
Now, I understand that the game removed many things that people liked, and took away aspects some considered sacred. To that indeed it is all a matter of preference. But to say a game was responsible for including the RP and didn't, I will have to respectfully disagree.
Now, I won't go all Scott Betts or Prof Cirno (those in the community will know what I mean). But I play both systems PF and 4E, and they RP just as effectively as the other.
EDIT: And I am not a WOW (or other MMO) person. I have only played them when I can't get a game, but to me they are always lacking because of the interaction with others is too gamey. It is just gear grinding to the top to raid for more gear. No one seems to appreciate the journey as much as rush to the end.
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to each his own right? i see hwere you are coming from, but 4th lacked roleplay for me.... i never felt like my character was in danger, or like I could talk my way out of a situation.. The only communication was with npcs who gave quests to go kill things... and thats all we did, 4 hours a week, kill things.... get more powers, and money I dont need, and kill things..
to WOW people, it is very funand to people who don't like structure, or who play with rule nazis, 4th is an understandable excercise.
it had its moments of fun
This sounds like more a problem with the campaign/module/DM rather than the system itself. The system is a set of rules to govern how various actions are resolved. The world and what the player actually does is not determined by the system. I could write weeks worth of material for Pathfinder or 4th edition DnD and not have any combats at all. A lot of mystery and political intrigue would bore my group though. I could also put my group is a dungeon (we'll call it a dungeon, but it is just a fancy hallway with rooms every so often) and have them run through combat, combat, trap, combat, trap, bigger combat, and repeat forever. None of this determines if the system is good or not.
I want to apologize for the tone of my previous paragraph, but I needed to let that out or I was going to end up venting it at my wife. All that overly irritable rant aside there are a number of great modules available for Pathfinder which mix combat and non-combat portions very well to build an interesting and challenging story for the group. I have played several adventure paths and enjoyed each. I have also run/played a number of one level modules which were great. Browse the modules/APs available at your local game store and see what adventure you can't wait to run or ask your DM to do likewise if you are a player. Also, the same modules and APs can also be found on the paizo site as downloadable pdf's for cheap(some are even free).
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Core rulebook PDF is 10 bucks, a pretty cheap way to get a feel for this huge system. I love having the book in PDF for the "Ctrl F" uberness. The book is laid out perfectly for character creation and ease of use.
Race>Class>Skills>Feats>Equipment>Combat>Magic. Then it goes into GMing>Environment>Magic Items. It is the players handbook and DMG rolled into 1.
I have played using the D&D red box set, AD&D, AD&D2, 3.0, 3.5, 4th ed, and Paizo (Pathfinder).
Pathfinder is almost like D&D 3.75. 3.5 nailed down a really good system that I enjoyed playing. Pathfinder just cleared up many of the clunky items in 3.5. Pathfinder already has a large product base and community, 3.5+Pathfinder seems like it is the way D&D is meant to be played, high fantasy within a pretty free structure.
Hit the PDF for 10 bucks, make a character, welcome to the community. If you have any questions like "What if I want to play a half drow/half robot ninja" just ask the forums here and they will point you in the right direction. Check out the Pathfinder Society scenarios and the Pathfinder Society in general too.
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Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean what I said (I never actually read the DM guide, only the phb, it was good, but made 0 sense, so I think thats what set me off of it. I mean, how could elves not be druids? that made no sense.. but I had hours of fun being an evil cleric zombifying the stuff we just killed)lol
A lot of classes like paladin and such were human only because human's got zero racial benefits. Their benefit was flexibility and no level cap on classes.
Every other race was level capped on most class they could play and not capped on one (usually thief or assassin).
Only fighter types could get strength or con bonuses above a certain point.
I loved 1st ed but it left a lot to the DM and if you had a bad DM it could be a nightmare.
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Could you fix that quote? I didn't say any of that. Thanks. I'm one of those weirdos that will just houserule stuff if I don't like the RAW (e.g. in my 1e game, elves could be druids. Anybody could be anything, actually. No level limits for demi-humans (I just gave humans some extra money and a few other things to compensate), etc).
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Could you fix that quote? I didn't say any of that. Thanks. I'm one of those weirdos that will just houserule stuff if I don't like the RAW (e.g. in my 1e game, elves could be druids. Anybody could be anything, actually. No level limits for demi-humans (I just gave humans some extra money and a few other things to compensate), etc).
Other crazy stuff that I just made up. I love cats. I mean loooooove them. I have 20 cats
Never! But seriously, I can't seem to find the edit button on that post. Does it just disappear after a while?